See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 29 July 2010
<scribe> scribe: Allanj
zakim open next
kf: details at
... will have IRC and phone connection
... working on video conference
times 12pm - 6pm Boston
5pm - 11pm London
9am - 3pm Seattle
discussion of F2F in Lyon, France
Simon not able to attend
discuss further next week.
Assets Conference in Orlando conflicts (Simon will be there)
implementations are in google docs
gl: do we want to create an issue to require the UA to allow the user to hide images
sh: who is it useful for
... we had 3 reasons
... 1. RSI for navigating quickly
... 2. cognitive issues
... 3. screen magnification
gl: ADD content in complex images
may be distracting
... for RSI images may take up too much room, reduce images to make scrolling through lots of content easier
... same for screen magnification
<Greg> If a user agent hides an image but still reserves the same space it would take up, simply filling it with white space and alt text, then we don't get the benefits we were looking for for users with RSI (who sill have to scroll over lots of space) and magnifiers (the same).
<Greg> Thus the ability to hide images *by itself* is not good enough, but we may have enough in combination with other existing SC about reflowing, etc.
kf: what would SC say?
<Greg> Three related abilities: 1. show/hide images; 2. show/hide alt text for images (with or without the image); 3. yes or no to making alt text take up the room originally taken up by the image.
kf: which items to render by default
this would be 3.1.2 plus Jeanne's action
gl: where do we clarify that this is different from images being hidden (replaced by alt, or supplemented with alt/title)
kf: item 3 - should reflow the document to accommodate the alt.
kp: these are different situations. need the alt to take up the same amount of space as the image so the flow remains the same when collaborating
kf: 3.1.2 user decides which alternative to be shown by default.
gl: it does allow the user to say
what not to show. won't allow the UA to hide images
... could have a CSS to use generated text to place 'alt' text after or below the image
... want the user to be able to hide images.
kf: also have 3.1.3 that gets at same area
gl: this is not global, it is a per image case
kf: 3.1.4 fall back if default
... what is end objective
... user gets to pick and choose what to render, what to render as alternative, mix and match multiple alternatives simultaneously
gl: rendering simultaneous
primary and alternative content should be AAA
... remove simultaneous, find better word
... show and hide primary content, show hide first tier alternative content, toggle reserve space of primary content for rendering of alternative content
... 3.1.3 and 3.1.4 would be independent. my proposal would replace 3.1.2
kf: UA allows user to hide or
show default content
... what default content?
ja: only content with alternatives - img, object, etc.
gl: is title an alternative
... anything that is always there (src) don't need to notify user.
<Greg> There are five meaningful permutations:
<Greg> a) Show image + hide alt = default, best for most people most of the time
<Greg> b) Show image + show alt = rare
<Greg> c) Hide image + hide alt =
<Greg> d) Hide image + show alt + take up full space
<Greg> e) Hide image + show alt + compress space = best for RSI and magnification
discussion of alt options
kf: this is exactly what a screen reader does.
gl: could be done with script, extension, or css
<Greg> (Not CSS, as the CSS can't selectively do it only when needed.)
ja: problem with 3.4.1 and word 'required', 'alt' is the only required alternative.
<Greg> Questioning what 3.4.1 gives us beyond what we already get from 3.4.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Allanj Inferring ScribeNick: AllanJ Default Present: +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, kford, sharper, Greg, +1.617.325.aabb, AllanJ, KimPatch Present: +1.512.206.aaaa Jeanne kford sharper Greg +1.617.325.aabb AllanJ KimPatch Found Date: 29 Jul 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-ua-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]