User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

29 Jul 2010

See also: IRC log


+1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, kford, sharper, Greg, +1.617.325.aabb, AllanJ, KimPatch


<trackbot> Date: 29 July 2010

<scribe> scribe: Allanj

Action Item Review

<Greg> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open?sort=owner

zakim open next

Writing meeting logistics, etc.

kf: details at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0024.html
... will have IRC and phone connection
... working on video conference

times 12pm - 6pm Boston

5pm - 11pm London

9am - 3pm Seattle

discussion of F2F in Lyon, France

Simon not able to attend

discuss further next week.

Assets Conference in Orlando conflicts (Simon will be there)

<sharper> http://www.sigaccess.org/assets10/

Tracking UAAG implementations

implementations are in google docs

gl: do we want to create an issue to require the UA to allow the user to hide images

sh: who is it useful for
... we had 3 reasons
... 1. RSI for navigating quickly
... 2. cognitive issues
... 3. screen magnification

gl: ADD content in complex images may be distracting
... for RSI images may take up too much room, reduce images to make scrolling through lots of content easier
... same for screen magnification

<Greg> If a user agent hides an image but still reserves the same space it would take up, simply filling it with white space and alt text, then we don't get the benefits we were looking for for users with RSI (who sill have to scroll over lots of space) and magnifiers (the same).

<Greg> Thus the ability to hide images *by itself* is not good enough, but we may have enough in combination with other existing SC about reflowing, etc.

kf: what would SC say?

<Greg> Three related abilities: 1. show/hide images; 2. show/hide alt text for images (with or without the image); 3. yes or no to making alt text take up the room originally taken up by the image.

kf: which items to render by default

this would be 3.1.2 plus Jeanne's action

gl: where do we clarify that this is different from images being hidden (replaced by alt, or supplemented with alt/title)

kf: item 3 - should reflow the document to accommodate the alt.

kp: these are different situations. need the alt to take up the same amount of space as the image so the flow remains the same when collaborating

kf: 3.1.2 user decides which alternative to be shown by default.

gl: it does allow the user to say what not to show. won't allow the UA to hide images
... could have a CSS to use generated text to place 'alt' text after or below the image
... want the user to be able to hide images.

kf: also have 3.1.3 that gets at same area

gl: this is not global, it is a per image case

kf: 3.1.4 fall back if default not available.
... what is end objective
... user gets to pick and choose what to render, what to render as alternative, mix and match multiple alternatives simultaneously

gl: rendering simultaneous primary and alternative content should be AAA
... remove simultaneous, find better word
... show and hide primary content, show hide first tier alternative content, toggle reserve space of primary content for rendering of alternative content
... 3.1.3 and 3.1.4 would be independent. my proposal would replace 3.1.2

kf: UA allows user to hide or show default content
... what default content?

ja: only content with alternatives - img, object, etc.

gl: is title an alternative
... anything that is always there (src) don't need to notify user.

<Greg> There are five meaningful permutations:

<Greg> a) Show image + hide alt = default, best for most people most of the time

<Greg> b) Show image + show alt = rare

<Greg> c) Hide image + hide alt =

<Greg> d) Hide image + show alt + take up full space

<Greg> e) Hide image + show alt + compress space = best for RSI and magnification

discussion of alt options


kf: this is exactly what a screen reader does.

gl: could be done with script, extension, or css

<Greg> (Not CSS, as the CSS can't selectively do it only when needed.)

ja: problem with 3.4.1 and word 'required', 'alt' is the only required alternative.

<Greg> Questioning what 3.4.1 gives us beyond what we already get from 3.4.

Summary of Action Items

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Found Scribe: Allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: AllanJ
Default Present: +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, kford, sharper, Greg, +1.617.325.aabb, AllanJ, KimPatch
Present: +1.512.206.aaaa Jeanne kford sharper Greg +1.617.325.aabb AllanJ KimPatch
Found Date: 29 Jul 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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