IRC log of ua on 2010-07-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:41:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:41:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:41:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:41:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:41:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:41:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
16:41:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:41:20 [trackbot]
Date: 29 July 2010
16:41:31 [AllanJ]
chair: KellyFord
16:41:47 [AllanJ]
Regrets: SimonH
16:42:37 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Attendance survey:
16:42:39 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Action Item Review
16:42:40 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Writing meeting logistics, etc.
16:42:42 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Tracking UAAG implementations
16:59:07 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:59:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aaaa
17:00:04 [Zakim]
17:00:18 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:00:36 [Zakim]
17:01:13 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
17:01:13 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:01:19 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:01:46 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:01:46 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:02:03 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:02:11 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:02:24 [Zakim]
17:02:27 [sharper]
zakim, ??P6 is sharper
17:02:27 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:03:05 [Zakim]
17:05:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aabb
17:06:23 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:07:23 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:07:23 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:07:25 [Zakim]
1. Attendance survey: [from AllanJ]
17:07:26 [Zakim]
2. Action Item Review [from AllanJ]
17:07:28 [Zakim]
3. Writing meeting logistics, etc. [from AllanJ]
17:07:30 [Zakim]
4. Tracking UAAG implementations [from AllanJ]
17:08:17 [AllanJ]
scribe: Allanj
17:08:36 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 1
17:08:36 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Attendance survey:, closed
17:08:38 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:39 [Zakim]
2. Action Item Review [from AllanJ]
17:08:52 [AllanJ]
zakim, next item
17:08:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Action Item Review" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:09:29 [Greg]
17:10:05 [AllanJ]
zakim, mute me
17:10:05 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:10:21 [AllanJ]
zakim, aaaa is me
17:10:21 [Zakim]
+AllanJ; got it
17:10:28 [AllanJ]
zakim, mute me
17:10:28 [Zakim]
AllanJ should now be muted
17:12:38 [AllanJ]
zakim, aabb is really KimPatch
17:12:38 [Zakim]
+KimPatch; got it
17:12:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 2
17:12:59 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Action Item Review, closed
17:13:00 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:13:02 [Zakim]
3. Writing meeting logistics, etc. [from AllanJ]
17:13:07 [AllanJ]
zakim open next
17:13:17 [AllanJ]
zakim, open next
17:13:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Writing meeting logistics, etc." taken up [from AllanJ]
17:13:54 [AllanJ]
kf: details at
17:14:14 [AllanJ]
...will have IRC and phone connection
17:14:24 [AllanJ]
...working on video conference
17:14:52 [AllanJ]
times 12pm - 6pm Boston
17:14:54 [AllanJ]
5pm - 11pm London
17:14:55 [AllanJ]
9am - 3pm Seattle
17:15:19 [AllanJ]
zakim, unmute me
17:15:19 [Zakim]
AllanJ should no longer be muted
17:19:08 [AllanJ]
discussion of F2F in Lyon, France
17:19:52 [AllanJ]
Simon not able to attend
17:20:15 [AllanJ]
discuss further next week.
17:20:48 [AllanJ]
Assets Conference in Orlando conflicts (Simon will be there)
17:23:34 [sharper]
17:25:35 [Zakim]
17:26:06 [Zakim]
17:26:48 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 3
17:26:48 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Writing meeting logistics, etc., closed
17:26:49 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:26:50 [Zakim]
4. Tracking UAAG implementations [from AllanJ]
17:27:02 [AllanJ]
zakim, next item
17:27:02 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Tracking UAAG implementations" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:28:58 [AllanJ]
implementations are in google docs
17:34:03 [AllanJ]
gl: do we want to create an issue to require the UA to allow the user to hide images
17:34:15 [AllanJ]
sh: who is it useful for
17:34:54 [AllanJ]
... we had 3 reasons
17:35:14 [AllanJ]
...1. RSI for navigating quickly
17:35:40 [AllanJ]
...2. cognitive issues
17:36:19 [AllanJ]
...3. screen magnification
17:36:37 [AllanJ]
gl: ADD content in complex images may be distracting
17:37:14 [AllanJ]
...for RSI images may take up too much room, reduce images to make scrolling through lots of content easier
17:37:33 [AllanJ]
...same for screen magnification
17:38:28 [Greg]
If a user agent hides an image but still reserves the same space it would take up, simply filling it with white space and alt text, then we don't get the benefits we were looking for for users with RSI (who sill have to scroll over lots of space) and magnifiers (the same).
17:39:05 [Greg]
Thus the ability to hide images *by itself* is not good enough, but we may have enough in combination with other existing SC about reflowing, etc.
17:39:45 [AllanJ]
kf: what would SC say?
17:40:45 [Greg]
Three related abilities: 1. show/hide images; 2. show/hide alt text for images (with or without the image); 3. yes or no to making alt text take up the room originally taken up by the image.
17:40:50 [AllanJ]
kf: which items to render by default
17:41:14 [AllanJ]
this would be 3.1.2 plus Jeanne's action
17:43:20 [AllanJ]
gl: where do we clarify that this is different from images being hidden (replaced by alt, or supplemented with alt/title)
17:45:29 [AllanJ]
kf: item 3 - should reflow the document to accommodate the alt.
17:46:28 [AllanJ]
kp: these are different situations. need the alt to take up the same amount of space as the image so the flow remains the same when collaborating
17:46:40 [Zakim]
17:47:25 [AllanJ]
kf: 3.1.2 user decides which alternative to be shown by default.
17:48:11 [AllanJ]
gl: it does allow the user to say what not to show. won't allow the UA to hide images
17:48:23 [Zakim]
17:48:40 [AllanJ]
...could have a CSS to use generated text to place 'alt' text after or below the image
17:49:04 [AllanJ]
...want the user to be able to hide images.
17:49:31 [AllanJ]
kf: also have 3.1.3 that gets at same area
17:49:48 [AllanJ]
gl: this is not global, it is a per image case
17:50:33 [AllanJ]
kf: 3.1.4 fall back if default not available.
17:50:48 [AllanJ]
...what is end objective
17:51:40 [AllanJ]
kf:user gets to pick and choose what to render, what to render as alternative, mix and match multiple alternatives simultaneously
17:53:00 [AllanJ]
gl: rendering simultaneous primary and alternative content should be AAA
17:53:14 [AllanJ]
...remove simultaneous, find better word
17:54:40 [AllanJ]
gl: show and hide primary content, show hide first tier alternative content, toggle reserve space of primary content for rendering of alternative content
17:55:13 [AllanJ]
gl: 3.1.3 and 3.1.4 would be independent. my proposal would replace 3.1.2
17:56:31 [AllanJ]
kf: UA allows user to hide or show default content
17:57:03 [AllanJ]
...what default content?
17:58:01 [AllanJ]
ja: only content with alternatives - img, object, etc.
17:58:10 [AllanJ]
gl: is title an alternative
17:58:37 [AllanJ]
...anything that is always there (src) don't need to notify user.
17:59:11 [Zakim]
18:03:39 [Greg]
There are five meaningful permutations:
18:03:41 [Greg]
a) Show image + hide alt = default, best for most people most of the time
18:03:43 [Greg]
b) Show image + show alt = rare
18:03:45 [Greg]
c) Hide image + hide alt =
18:03:47 [Greg]
d) Hide image + show alt + take up full space
18:03:49 [Greg]
e) Hide image + show alt + compress space = best for RSI and magnification
18:06:47 [AllanJ]
discussion of alt options
18:13:25 [AllanJ]
topic: 3.4.1
18:14:04 [AllanJ]
kf: this is exactly what a screen reader does.
18:14:21 [AllanJ]
gl: could be done with script, extension, or css
18:15:00 [Greg]
(Not CSS, as the CSS can't selectively do it only when needed.)
18:27:52 [AllanJ]
ja: problem with 3.4.1 and word 'required', 'alt' is the only required alternative.
18:28:51 [Greg]
Questioning what 3.4.1 gives us beyond what we already get from 3.4.
18:30:00 [Zakim]
18:30:04 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:30:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
18:30:31 [AllanJ]
regrets -SimonH
18:30:44 [Zakim]
18:30:45 [Zakim]
18:30:46 [Zakim]
18:31:09 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
18:31:09 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, kford, sharper, Greg, +1.617.325.aabb, AllanJ, KimPatch
18:31:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:31:29 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
18:31:50 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
18:31:50 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items