00:06:32 Judy has joined #html-a11y
00:26:56 Judy has joined #html-a11y
01:21:02 Judy has joined #html-a11y
01:47:09 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
02:13:47 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
03:31:20 Judy has joined #html-a11y
04:36:11 Judy has joined #html-a11y
05:44:02 Judy has joined #html-a11y
06:41:27 Judy has joined #html-a11y
07:59:40 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
14:59:23 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:23 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-html-a11y-irc
15:00:02 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML)
15:00:02 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
15:00:16 running a bit late
15:00:21 zakim, this will be html-a11y
15:00:21 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
15:00:52 jongunderson has joined #html-a11y
15:01:06 zakim, this will be WAI-PFWG(HTML)
15:01:06 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
15:01:13 trackbot, start meeting
15:01:15 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:17 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:01:17 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:01:18 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:01:18 Date: 29 July 2010
15:01:28 Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
15:01:36 zakim, call janina
15:01:36 ok, janina; the call is being made
15:01:50 paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:02:22 zakim, this is 2119
15:02:22 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:02:41 +Rich
15:02:57 how soon will we be discussing drag/drop
15:03:03 I have another call I need to get on
15:03:06 Hi All, just joined in from the UK number
15:03:07 ?
15:03:27 +kliehm
15:03:35 +Michael_Cooper
15:03:44 frickin' zakim
15:03:59 zakim, who is here?
15:03:59 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, ??P6, Janina, Marco_Ranon, Rich, kliehm, Michael_Cooper
15:04:01 On IRC I see paulc, Marco_Ranon, jongunderson, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, Zakim, MikeSmith, JF, kliehm, oedipus, MichaelC, davidb, janina, trackbot
15:04:04 Ben has joined #html-a11y
15:04:30 zakim, ??P6 is Jon_Gunderson
15:04:30 +Jon_Gunderson; got it
15:04:33 +Ben_Caldwell
15:05:07 Happy to make room on the phone for Steve or others if required
15:05:18 Zakim, call Mike
15:05:18 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:05:20 +Mike
15:05:51 Zakim, drop Mike
15:05:51 Mike is being disconnected
15:05:52 -Mike
15:06:15 zakim, who is noisy?
15:06:23 I cannot connect on the phone. Probabaly local problem with my VOIP.
15:06:26 oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 9 (56%), Marco_Ranon (4%), Gregory_Rosmaita (5%), Michael_Cooper (38%), Ben_Caldwell (29%), Janina (4%)
15:06:30 +[IPcaller]
15:06:37 scribe: Ben
15:06:44 agenda?
15:06:55 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:06:57 +MikeSmith; got it
15:07:30 agenda+ Actions Review
15:07:36 Zakim, mute me
15:07:36 MikeSmith should now be muted
15:07:41 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
15:07:43 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0124.html
15:07:46 zakim, take up agendum 1
15:07:46 agendum 1. "Actions Review" taken up [from Ben]
15:08:01 agenda+ TF Recommendations Followup: @Alt Rationales; Participation in WG process
15:08:11 agenda+ Keyboard Access Requirements
15:08:21 agenda+ Drag & Drop Discussion
15:08:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Tech_Requirements
15:09:01 action-28?
15:09:01 ACTION-28 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list -- due 2010-07-29 -- OPEN
15:09:01 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/28
15:09:02 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Alt_tech_appendix
15:10:24 action-28: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Alt_tech_appendix
15:10:24 ACTION-28 - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list notes added
15:11:02 zakim, close this item
15:11:02 agendum 1 closed
15:11:04 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:11:05 zakim, next item
15:11:05 2. Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage [from Ben]
15:11:07 agendum 2. "Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage" taken up [from Ben]
15:11:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Tech_Requirements
15:11:13 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Tech_Requirements
15:11:55 https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Video_Text_Format_Comparison
15:12:00 JF: we have started collecting technical reqs. based on user reqs. document, currently discussing the actual time stamp format
15:12:28 q+ to ask why discussion happening in WHATWG space without AT LEAST carbon-copying a w3c html-specific list
15:12:42 ack oe
15:12:42 oedipus, you wanted to ask why discussion happening in WHATWG space without AT LEAST carbon-copying a w3c html-specific list
15:12:44 JF: various proposals on the table, important to note that there are multiple formats under discussion and there is resolve to continue working on this as quickly as possible
15:12:50 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:13:03 Still no luck dialing in. sorry.
15:13:31 GR: concerned that some of this discussion took place without cc to A11Y list
15:13:47 JS: seems like an HTML WG issue that needs discussion
15:14:08 leaving to try to fix my phone problems ...
15:14:25 RRSAgent, make minutes
15:14:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:14:33 Zakim, list?
15:14:33 I don't understand your question, MikeSmith.
15:14:36 Zakim, list
15:14:36 I see Team_Comm()10:30AM, Styl_XSL-FO-()11:00AM, WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM active
15:14:39 also scheduled at this time are WF_TF()8:00AM, T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM, GA_SVGWG()10:30AM, INC_LLDXG()10:00AM, XML_PMWG()11:00AM, SW_HCLS(TransMed)11:00AM, VB_VBWG(CCXML)11:00AM,
15:14:42 ... WAI_Team()9:30AM, INC_Prov XG(Mappings)11:00AM
15:14:49 q?
15:15:03 chair: Janina_Sajka
15:15:55 JF: We are aware that there are WHATWG followers out there who believe that once it's written there, it is set in stone. Need to be sure that people understand that's not the case.
15:16:25 regrets: Laura_Carlson,Gez_Lemon,Denis_Boudreau,Kenny_Johar
15:16:32 JS: Do we have bug triage group up and running?
15:16:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:16:59 MC: just a matter of getting scheduling in place
15:17:35 JS: Canvas subgroup?
15:18:03 canvas 2D post by Rich 28 July 2010 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0148.html
15:18:43 RS: Trying to wrangle all the cats and proposals. Follow up proposals submitted to address concerns with the original.
15:19:42 RS: alternate proposals coming in that are making things more complex
15:19:48 Zakim, unmute me
15:19:48 MikeSmith should no longer be muted
15:19:49 chaals' updated canvas proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0114.html
15:20:29 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
15:20:32 MS: if you go to HTML WG home page, there is a list maintained by the chairs related to change proposals
15:21:42 chaals' change proposal for canvas: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
15:23:19 RS: problem is that group wants proposals merged, then alternate proposals that do not address important issues are coming in
15:23:42 JS: think we can make this simpler, we could tell the WG that we'd like to take these 3 proposals back and work them into a single proposal
15:23:51 RS: Yes, I would prefer to do that.
15:24:38 JS: Suggest that would take about a month?
15:24:56 RS: Yes.
15:25:04 paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:25:11 MS: Given that a lot of people will be on vacation, that seems like a good estimate.
15:26:44 hixie on change proposals for HTMLWG Issue 74 and Issue 105 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0219.html
15:27:01 RS: I'll leave coordination issues to chairs. Meanwhile, I'll try to communicate to Ian on this. Suggestion is to have an API that would do the drawing for the author. We can basically bury the accessibility services in an API that would allow the author to have an API to do the drawing and caret selection, etc. If Ian can write the API, I can write how the UA/AT supports it.
15:27:03 RichS response to hixie's post: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0231.html
15:29:31 JS: ARIA mappings, working on improving rationale for Issue 10066.
15:30:29 RS: They wanted to know rationale for all of our changes... Some things needed to allow for greater role support on specific objects. Other places where we felt that if you applied ARIA, you could cause more problems for AT.
15:31:15 They wanted to understand how we approached the problem and categorize the changes. We've agreed to work on a change proposal that highlights the changes and why we changed them the way we did.
15:31:34 We have a meeting on Friday and will do another round on the change proposal to make things clearer.
15:32:55 JS: Glad to see participation from a chair on this in improving proposals to match what they like to see.
15:33:25 zakim, close this item
15:33:25 agendum 2 closed
15:33:26 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:33:28 3. TF Recommendations Followup: @Alt Rationales; Participation in WG process [from Ben]
15:33:33 agenda?
15:33:42 zakim, take up agendum 5
15:33:42 agendum 5. "Drag & Drop Discussion" taken up [from Ben]
15:34:28 GJR: problem is that HTML5 dnd not accessible via keyboard (reverse engineered from mouse actions) and there is no longer a copy& paste API in HTML5
15:34:30 JS: There have been several email exchanges on this topic. Seems that the issue comes down to the existing drag and drop spec is more or less reverse engineered from mouse actions that are not necessarily device-independent friendly
15:34:48 1. HTML5 requires an adequate definition of what can be achieved via copy and paste using drag and drop, which necessitate that HTML5 also define a copy and paste API in their current work.
15:34:52 2. if 1. is not a viable solution, then the HTML5 drag and drop API MUST be amended to allow the workflow suggested for drag and drop in the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices document: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop
15:34:55 JS: Question is how do we get to a device-independent place for this
15:36:19 RS: At this point, Gez has not developed a proposal. A lot of the issues are that some of the services that you get from drag and drop provide detail about what you just dragged. This info is lost if you initiate it from the keyboard, but that is important information for users.
15:36:42 I'm looking for UA devs who are working in this space.
15:36:42 q?
15:36:51 gez made an inquiry to public-html-a11y (followed up by a post to the same effect by MikeSmith) asking devs to contribue -- only 2 apple people responded
15:37:08 RS: If we do this, I think it's going to fix more things than just accessibility.
15:37:29 q+ to ask what happened to Copy & Paste API in HTML5?
15:37:31 JS: Seems like dev feedback is key.
15:38:46 Zakim, drop me
15:38:46 MikeSmith is being disconnected
15:38:47 -MikeSmith
15:39:15 +[IPcaller]
15:40:26 MS: Important to note that what is in the spec potentially is based on IE behavior including the event name and the descriptions of what events fire, when they fire, etc. So, some of this is a problem in existing UAs and the spec may have to be adjusted to match what's actually implemented.
15:41:44 +[Microsoft]
15:42:04 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:42:04 +paulc; got it
15:42:05 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:42:05 On the phone I see John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jon_Gunderson, Janina, Marco_Ranon (muted), Rich, kliehm, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, [IPcaller], [Microsoft]
15:42:07 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:42:19 MS: multiple events fire as you drag across different windows, while you're hovering inside a window, etc. Can see that there are a number of challenges here. If we can look at the OS level how you make dragging of file system icons around the desktop accessible, then I think it can be done in web applications
15:42:48 zakim, [IPcaller] is MikeSmith
15:42:48 +MikeSmith; got it
15:43:00 q?
15:43:17 RS: Drag and drop came from IE team, think that would be a good place to start.
15:43:21 Zakim, mute me
15:43:21 MikeSmith should now be muted
15:43:37 ack oe
15:43:37 oedipus, you wanted to ask what happened to Copy & Paste API in HTML5?
15:44:07 -MikeSmith
15:44:13 GR: what happened to Copy & Paste API in HTML5?
15:44:17 1. HTML5 requires an adequate definition of what can be achieved via copy and paste using drag and drop, which necessitate that HTML5 also define a copy and paste API in their current work.
15:44:19 I think the copy&paste API may still be in teh source for the spec, commented out
15:44:21 2. if 1. is not a viable solution, then the HTML5 drag and drop API MUST be amended to allow the workflow suggested for drag and drop in the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices document: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop
15:45:01 Perhaps accessible drag & drop is challenging because the spec itself isn't mature. Hixie's notes from reverse engineering: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1115899732&count=1 - Also there was a rant from Peter-Paul Koch on his QuirksMode blog.
15:45:31 zakim, close this item
15:45:31 agendum 5 closed
15:45:32 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:45:34 3. TF Recommendations Followup: @Alt Rationales; Participation in WG process [from Ben]
15:45:38 +[IPcaller]
15:45:39 -Rich
15:45:50 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:45:50 +MikeSmith; got it
15:45:56 Zakim, mute me
15:45:56 MikeSmith should now be muted
15:46:05 agenda?
15:46:19 zakim, take up agendum 4
15:46:19 agendum 4. "Keyboard Access Requirements" taken up [from Ben]
15:46:23 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements
15:46:33 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements
15:46:34 JS: would like to hear ideas about how to move forward with this
15:46:43 do we need another subteam to work on this?
15:47:24 GJR: First of all, need to field the comments from Judy and Jeanne
15:48:15 I believe that the thrust of the UA reqs. regard user control over whether to fire an action when the access key is invoked vs. to just move focus there. I'm waiting for one of them to provide the requirements so they can be added to the PF reqs. and consider them as a whole
15:48:38 JF: I have some thoughts regarding whether this should be an element or attribute
15:49:52 GJR: I have logged two bugs. There are others identified that need more discussion.
15:49:53 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/access_key_requirements
15:50:30 JS: are there folks from UA WG that we can engage?
15:51:04 Psuedo-Cascade of Multiple Accesskeys Definable for an Individual Element bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10251
15:51:50 HTML5 hard-binds "Action" to accesskey key-press bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10252
15:52:20 Think if we get folks from that group engaged, we can get this moving forward.
15:52:50 JS: Any objection to creating a sub-team for this?
15:53:37 GJR: Would need to have more focus on device independence.
15:54:14 GJR: device independece sub-group? cover: acces* (accesskey), dnd, etc.
15:55:16 GJR: hoping to get reqs. added and under discussion before next week's meeting
15:55:22 zakim, close this item
15:55:22 agendum 4 closed
15:55:23 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:55:25 3. TF Recommendations Followup: @Alt Rationales; Participation in WG process [from Ben]
15:55:29 Zakim, unmute me
15:55:29 MikeSmith should no longer be muted
15:55:30 zakim, take up agendum 3
15:55:30 agendum 3. "TF Recommendations Followup: @Alt Rationales; Participation in WG process" taken up [from Ben]
15:56:11 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0103.html issues with accesskey as-is in HTML5 (and resultant thread)
15:56:27 -> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html HTML Chairs "Change Proposal Status" page
15:57:46 MS: Best way to keep up with status of any HTML WG issues that the TF as a group needs to track is the Change Proposal Status Page
15:58:13 ... If we see something missing from that page, then we should bring it to the attention of the chairs.
15:58:59 MS: We should make sure that any change proposal we are asking the chairs to consider is listed on this page.
15:59:59 Paul leaving to Chair HTML WG weekly meeting.
16:00:11 -[Microsoft]
16:00:15 If there is information that we don't feel the page captures, then we can ask that more information be added
16:00:37 some accessibility/usability problems with bugzilla: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0146.html (and resultant thread)
16:01:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:01:59 zakim, close this item
16:01:59 agendum 3 closed
16:02:00 I see nothing remaining on the agenda
16:02:05 -Jon_Gunderson
16:02:20 zakim, make minutes
16:02:20 I don't understand 'make minutes', Ben
16:02:26 rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/29-html-a11y-minutes.html Ben
16:02:28 -kliehm
16:02:28 -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:30 -John_Foliot
16:02:33 Zakim, drop Mike
16:02:33 MikeSmith is being disconnected
16:02:35 -Michael_Cooper
16:02:37 -MikeSmith
16:02:38 bye
16:02:41 Zakim, drop me
16:02:43 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not see a party named 'MikeSmith'
16:02:49 -Marco_Ranon
16:03:01 -Ben_Caldwell
16:04:57 -Cynthia_Shelly
16:04:59 -Janina
16:05:00