IRC log of CSS on 2010-07-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:41:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:41:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/28-CSS-irc
15:41:13 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:41:14 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
15:41:20 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:46:32 [arronei]
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15:55:17 [dbaron]
dbaron has joined #css
15:56:06 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:13 [Zakim]
+glazou
15:57:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.214.aaaa
15:57:45 [TabAtkin1_]
TabAtkin1_ has joined #css
15:58:05 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is TabAtkin1_
15:58:05 [Zakim]
+TabAtkin1_; got it
15:58:19 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
15:58:26 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
15:58:26 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
15:59:27 [Zakim]
+plinss_
16:01:04 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:01:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.738.aabb
16:01:43 [jdaggett]
zakim: +1.415.738.aabb is jdaggett
16:02:01 [ChrisL]
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16:02:16 [jdaggett]
Zakim: aabb is jdaggett
16:02:33 [jdaggett]
Zakim: are you alive?
16:02:36 [CesarAcebal]
CesarAcebal has joined #css
16:02:42 [Zakim]
+??P29
16:03:10 [TabAtkin1_]
zakim, aabb is jdaggett
16:03:10 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
16:03:11 [Zakim]
+??P27
16:03:22 [ChrisL]
zakim, ??P27 is me
16:03:22 [Zakim]
+ChrisL; got it
16:03:44 [jdaggett]
zakim, mute jdaggett
16:03:44 [Zakim]
jdaggett should now be muted
16:04:35 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:04:39 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:05:15 [Zakim]
+ +34.60.940.aacc
16:05:33 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is CesarAcebal
16:05:33 [Zakim]
+CesarAcebal; got it
16:06:07 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/oslo-2010
16:06:19 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:06:26 [jdaggett]
zakim, unmute me
16:06:26 [Zakim]
jdaggett should no longer be muted
16:06:40 [Zakim]
+David_Baron
16:06:43 [fantasai]
glazou: F2F coming up, only a few topics listed on agenda
16:06:44 [ChrisL]
http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2010/Oslo.html
16:06:51 [fantasai]
glazou: Anyone have other topics?
16:07:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.334.923.aadd
16:07:21 [ChrisL]
q+
16:07:22 [Zakim]
-smfr
16:07:31 [bradk]
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16:07:37 [smfr]
oops
16:07:42 [fantasai]
ChrisL: We need to recharter, so we need to discuss what's going into the next charter period
16:07:44 [ChrisL]
ack ChrisL
16:07:53 [fantasai]
jdaggett: I'd like to talk about CSS3 font feature support
16:07:53 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:08:16 [fantasai]
glazou: Please add to the wiki page the length of time you need for the discussion
16:08:25 [fantasai]
glazou: Anything else? Ok let's move back to CSS2.1 issues
16:08:32 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
16:08:38 [jdaggett]
zakim, mute me
16:08:39 [Zakim]
jdaggett should now be muted
16:08:59 [fantasai]
glazou: We have a few follow ups from previous weeks, and also a few issues from you
16:09:35 [fantasai]
bert: I posted a list of issues I edited
16:09:47 [fantasai]
bert: Issue 86 is a problem, just sent an email about that
16:10:07 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
16:10:29 [fantasai]
bert: My task for 86 was about the position of the list marker box, and my task was to tweak the text and make an edit, but after I tried and fantasai responded to that I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do there.
16:10:38 [szilles]
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16:10:43 [fantasai]
bert: Wanted to discuss how far exactly the marker should be undefined
16:11:01 [fantasai]
bert: the marker is supposed to be outside the box
16:11:08 [fantasai]
bert: we decided it doesn't scroll
16:11:15 [fantasai]
bert: we decided it's on the left for ltr and on the right for rtl
16:11:28 [fantasai]
bert: we decided the marker could create a first line if there wasn't one
16:11:42 [fantasai]
bert: For 86 we decided it would be undefined
16:11:48 [fantasai]
bert: the issue was for floats and centering
16:11:50 [Zakim]
-smfr
16:12:09 [Zakim]
+smfr
16:13:08 [fantasai]
fantasai: It should only be defined for cases where the start of the inline content is not at the start edge of the containing block
16:13:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: i.e. in the presence of floats
16:13:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: And when text-align: center or end (or equivalent)
16:14:41 [fantasai]
bert: We do have implementations that leave the bullet on the outside edge in the presence of text-align
16:14:46 [Zakim]
+bradk
16:14:57 [glazou]
np TabAtkin1_
16:15:04 [Zakim]
-TabAtkin1_
16:15:32 [bradk_]
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16:15:44 [fantasai]
dbaron: I thought some people wanted the bullet to move with text-align
16:15:57 [fantasai]
bert: On the mailing list people said that should be handled by position: inside
16:18:40 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we have implementations for the text-align case, then let's just undefine the case for floats
16:21:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: We do want to leave the marker alone in text-align for CSS3; the bidi group concluded that was desireable for certain cases
16:21:33 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Leave text-align case defined, position of bullet in presence of floats undefined for issue 86
16:22:27 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-110
16:22:31 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0404.html
16:22:34 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0372.html
16:22:58 [TabAtkin1_]
At this point I'm just going to go with what Elika suggested.
16:24:10 [glazou]
TabAtkin1_: go with your guests !
16:24:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: My action item is done, proposed text as bz wanted
16:24:41 [fantasai]
Bert: I don't like it, but I guess it's not that common
16:26:12 [dbaron]
I'm deferring to bz
16:26:31 [fantasai]
fantasai: my position is the same as Bert's. I don't like it, but if we have to do it, we have to do it
16:26:34 [fantasai]
SteveZ: Mine is the same
16:26:56 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept bz's proposal
16:27:53 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
16:28:34 [jdaggett]
zakim, unmute me
16:28:34 [Zakim]
jdaggett should no longer be muted
16:29:15 [glazou]
what was that noise??
16:29:50 [jdaggett]
zakim, mute me
16:29:50 [Zakim]
jdaggett should now be muted
16:30:22 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think the next text is fine. I agree with Anton that it's a little confusing about whether leading affects the content box area
16:30:30 [dbaron]
Is the term "em-box" defined? Should it be?
16:30:40 [fantasai]
Bert: That's explicitly undefined, so I tried to avoid talking about it
16:31:07 [fantasai]
Bert: This is not the first time the em box appears in the text. I don't think we have a formal definition of it
16:31:13 [ChrisL]
if em box is used then it should be defined
16:33:21 [Bert]
(10.6.1. says the height of the content area is explicitly undefiend, that's why I didn't talk about content box in issue 118.)
16:33:33 [fantasai]
SteveZ: I don't think anyone's disagreeing with the text, but what the right way to say where the spacing goes
16:34:01 [fantasai]
SteveZ: The problem has to do with describing where the extra leading occurs
16:35:24 [fantasai]
Bert: We need some measure of what gets centered. It's not the ink of the glyph, because that maybe far outside the em box
16:36:19 [ChrisL]
http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/csswork/inline/embox.html
16:36:22 [fantasai]
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-size-props
16:36:41 [bradk_]
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=define%3A+em+box&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
16:36:42 [ChrisL]
The em-box is the theoretical box (or square) around a font character of a given 'size' as designed by the font designer. It is sometimes referred to as an em-square. It is the theoretical square that glyphs are designed upon. Its height is the intended distance between lines of type in the same type size. In other words its height is the distance between baselines when the font is set without any extra leading (line-height).
16:37:52 [fantasai]
SteveZ: I would prefer a definition from the font specs
16:37:54 [ChrisL]
http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/inline-format.html
16:38:08 [fantasai]
ChrisL: That's taken from a discussion of fonts in the context of CSS. Let me get another one.
16:38:17 [fantasai]
fantasai notes we'd have to get permission from the author
16:38:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: The other thing here is that you need something that both has a measurement, and one that provides a position with respect to the baseline
16:39:19 [fantasai]
SteveZ: That's why I want to go back and check with the font guys
16:40:13 [fantasai]
glazou: ok, deferred to next week
16:41:04 [ChrisL]
actually we don't need permission since that definition is drawn from CSS2
16:41:05 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-120
16:41:05 [ChrisL]
Certain values, such as width metrics, are expressed in units that are relative to an abstract square whose height is the intended distance between lines of type in the same type size. This square is called the em square and it is the design grid on which the glyph outlines are defined.
16:41:13 [ChrisL]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-CSS2-20080411/fonts.html#emsq
16:41:19 [fantasai]
heh, nice
16:41:20 [szilles]
dbaron: sometimes things are expressed in terms of "ascent" and "descent" which are positioned metrics
16:41:42 [dbaron]
szilles, yeah, that's how our code works :-)
16:41:59 [fantasai]
glazou: Has anyone reviewed this?
16:42:03 [fantasai]
No response
16:42:32 [fantasai]
glazou: I give one week to everyone to review this and if there's no response it's accepted
16:42:49 [fantasai]
ACTION: Everyone - one week to review proposal for 120
16:42:49 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Everyone
16:43:07 [fantasai]
glazou: issue 137
16:43:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: need to discuss with bzbarsky
16:43:21 [TabAtkins_]
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16:43:32 [jdaggett]
zakim, unmute me
16:43:32 [Zakim]
jdaggett should no longer be muted
16:43:34 [fantasai]
glazou: issue 154 open to jdaggett, arronei, and zwol (zack)
16:44:04 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Arron pinged me, but I don't know what we want to come up with
16:44:17 [fantasai]
arronei: I'll talk to you right after the meeting if you have time?
16:44:17 [Zakim]
-plinss_
16:44:26 [fantasai]
jdaggett: Maybe tomorrow morning / late afternoon your time?
16:44:31 [fantasai]
arronei: ping me when you're available tomorrow
16:44:53 [Zakim]
+plinss_
16:45:47 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-166
16:46:58 [fantasai]
Bert: The diff looks good, and is very easy to apply for me. :)
16:47:02 [fantasai]
Bert: I suggest we accept it
16:47:12 [fantasai]
glazou: Other thoughts?
16:48:05 [smfr]
-property does not accept percentages as values.
16:48:05 [smfr]
+property does not accept percentages in its values.
16:48:20 [jdaggett]
zakim, mute me
16:48:20 [Zakim]
jdaggett should now be muted
16:48:35 [fantasai]
glazou: No objection?
16:48:51 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 166
16:49:17 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-167
16:50:20 [fantasai]
dbaron: Zack said he'd respond with another proposal. Maybe he did and we forgot to put it on the issues list?
16:51:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: Latest message from him on that is 15 July
16:52:01 [fantasai]
glazou: Ok, add to wiki and action everyone to review for next week
16:52:19 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-170
16:53:04 [fantasai]
dbaron: There was some amount of agreement on leaving things undefined, question is what things exactly we want to leave undefined
16:53:23 [fantasai]
glazou: I remember that web designers expect these properties to apply to cells and rows
16:53:34 [fantasai]
glazou: If we disable them, we should explain it very carefully.
16:53:44 [fantasai]
glazou: Let's defer and wait for Tab
16:54:41 [bradk_]
Both Tab and I had posted to the list about the TD TR max-height min0height thing...
16:56:51 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add missing values from writing-mode in SVG to CSS
16:57:40 [bradk_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0052.html
16:58:18 [jdaggett]
already added agenda items to the oslo f2f agenda page
16:58:28 [fantasai]
Meeting closed
16:58:29 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:58:32 [Zakim]
-jdaggett
16:58:33 [Zakim]
-smfr
16:58:34 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
16:58:35 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
16:58:35 [Zakim]
-arronei
16:58:37 [Zakim]
-glazou
16:58:39 [Zakim]
-CesarAcebal
16:58:43 [Zakim]
-plinss_
16:58:49 [Zakim]
-bradk
16:58:52 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
16:58:59 [Zakim]
- +1.334.923.aadd
16:59:00 [Zakim]
-??P29
16:59:00 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:59:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou, +1.650.214.aaaa, TabAtkin1_, arronei, plinss_, [Microsoft], +1.415.738.aabb, jdaggett, ChrisL, smfr, +34.60.940.aacc, CesarAcebal, David_Baron,
16:59:04 [Zakim]
... +1.334.923.aadd, SteveZ, bradk
16:59:39 [smfr]
smfr has left #css
16:59:40 [fantasai]
who was +34, +1.650 and +1.334 ?
17:01:42 [Bert]
Hmm, I was certainly there, but Zakim didn't recognize me?
17:02:07 [fantasai]
So +34 was probably you?
17:02:12 [dbaron]
maybe 334?
17:02:20 [dbaron]
+1.334. is southern Alabama
17:02:26 [dbaron]
but maybe it was really +33.4. ?
17:03:26 [dbaron]
+34 is Spain
17:03:35 [Bert]
I must have been the +1.334.923.aadd then.
17:11:12 [CesarAcebal]
+34.60.940.aacc was me (calling from Skype but it's configured with my mobile phone number, and +34 is effectively Spain). I don't know why zakim has listed me twice (both by name and with my number).
17:11:23 [Bert]
I don't know about the +1, but my number starts with +334923... and that was the number that zakim reported just before my first message on IRC. (I was late, because Zakim gave me a busy tone at first.)
17:12:18 [dbaron]
The attendees list doesn't remove the original when you say "aacc is CesarAcebal"
17:12:29 [dbaron]
...so you were listed twice.
17:12:47 [Bert]
Zakim has Cesar twice, because glazou told zakim that +34... was you, and zakim has the habit of only adding particiapnts to the list and never removing them.
17:14:26 [Curt`]
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17:15:00 [Bert]
Glazou also made 650=Tab, so Tab is there twice, too.
17:15:37 [CesarAcebal]
I see. I thought that in that case only the name and not the number appeared. Thanks!
17:16:15 [Bert]
Zakim normally remembers the assignment, so in theory, next time it should only list the name.
17:17:02 [Bert]
(But, in theory, it should also have known me...)
17:17:03 [CesarAcebal]
I know, but in my case not always work, and I suppose that it is because I don't always call with the same number.
17:17:19 [CesarAcebal]
:)
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