IRC log of rif on 2010-07-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:53:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/27-rif-irc
14:53:17 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/27-rif-minutes.html csma
14:53:25 [csma]
rrsagent, make log public
14:53:46 [csma]
Meeting: RIF telecon 27 July 2010
14:54:00 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:54:25 [csma]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jul/0032.html
14:54:45 [csma]
csma has changed the topic to: RIF telecon 27 July; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jul/0032.html (csma)
14:55:25 [csma]
Regrets: DaveReynolds
14:55:34 [csma]
zakim, clear agenda
14:55:34 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:55:53 [csma]
agendum+ Admin
14:56:16 [csma]
agendum+ liaisons
14:56:24 [csma]
agendum+ Actions review
14:56:52 [csma]
agendum+ Feedback on SPARQL ER
14:57:06 [csma]
agendum+ XML data
14:57:13 [csma]
agendum+ Primer
14:57:23 [csma]
agendum+ RIF in RDF
14:57:36 [csma]
agendum+ Test cases
14:57:53 [csma]
agendum+ AOB (next meeting: 10 August)
15:00:03 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:10 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:00:16 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:01:07 [lmorgens]
lmorgens has joined #rif
15:01:37 [Zakim]
+Leora_Morgenstern
15:01:53 [Zakim]
+ +33.1.49.08.aaaa
15:02:16 [csma]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:16 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:02:17 [ChrisW_]
ChrisW_ has joined #rif
15:02:34 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:02:43 [ChrisW_]
yo zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:58 [ChrisW_]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:58 [Zakim]
+ChrisW_; got it
15:03:04 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:03:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.533.aabb
15:04:16 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:04:29 [AdrianP]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, csma, ChrisW_, [IPcaller], +1.503.533.aabb
15:04:40 [AdrianP]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:04:40 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
15:04:40 [ChrisW]
zakim, ChrisW_ is me
15:04:41 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:04:47 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
15:04:47 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:05:07 [ChrisW]
zakim, aabb is Gary
15:05:07 [Zakim]
+Gary; got it
15:05:30 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:05:39 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:05:50 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me.
15:05:50 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:05:50 [AdrianP]
Zakim, unmute me
15:05:52 [Zakim]
AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:06:05 [csma]
Scribenick: Gary
15:06:08 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Gary
15:06:21 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:06:21 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
15:06:29 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:06:40 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jul/att-0006/2010-07-13-rif-minutes.html
15:06:59 [csma]
PROPOSED: approve the minutes of July 13 telecon
15:07:25 [csma]
RESOLVED: approve the minutes of July 13 telecon
15:08:07 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:08:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.833.aacc
15:08:55 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:08:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "liaisons" taken up [from csma]
15:09:13 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, aacc is me
15:09:13 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:09:33 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:09:33 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, csma
15:09:44 [csma]
zakim, close item 2
15:09:44 [Zakim]
agendum 2, liaisons, closed
15:09:46 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:09:48 [Zakim]
3. Actions review [from csma]
15:09:57 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:09:57 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Actions review" taken up [from csma]
15:10:13 [sandro]
zakim, ping
15:10:13 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ping', sandro
15:10:57 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, csma, ChrisW, AdrianP, Gary, Harold, MichaelKifer
15:11:50 [Gary]
csma: removing string match from xml-data
15:13:49 [ChrisW]
close action-1034
15:13:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-1034 Contact Stella about test cases status closed
15:14:57 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:14:57 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Feedback on SPARQL ER" taken up [from csma]
15:16:59 [Gary]
sandro: a conversation with sparql makes more sense than a big review, because there are several issues
15:18:07 [Gary]
... ask Jos to send comments to sparql comments list
15:19:18 [Gary]
csma: one issue is we think sparql should not restrict RIF
15:19:22 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:19:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "XML data" taken up [from csma]
15:20:12 [Gary]
csma: incorporating Jos' and Michael's comments
15:20:39 [Gary]
... currently doc is in flux
15:21:47 [Gary]
... reduce size of xpath related material
15:21:49 [ChrisW]
Harold, do you really want "skype highlighting" on your name in the Primer editors list?
15:22:46 [Gary]
cmsa: use NCName to refer to many attributes and some elements that have no namespace
15:23:03 [Gary]
... no namespace => can't use rif:iri
15:24:18 [Gary]
sandro: suggest using a dummy namespace
15:25:16 [Gary]
... or a local symbol
15:25:51 [sandro]
I cant decide if using local is incredibly evil, or pretty clever.
15:28:15 [Gary]
sandro: dummy namespace might be more straightforward
15:28:37 [Gary]
... but could offend some xml sensibilities
15:30:50 [Gary]
csma: will go with dummy namespace for now
15:31:03 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:31:03 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Primer" taken up [from csma]
15:31:33 [Gary]
harold: making progress and have received some feedback
15:31:59 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Primer
15:33:01 [Gary]
csma: why if (a,b) rather than if a then b?
15:33:39 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Primer#Conjunctions_and_Implications
15:34:31 [Gary]
leora: came from common logic, but is fine with if a then b
15:35:31 [Gary]
harold: don't want to confuse with PRD
15:36:01 [AdrianP]
but shouldn't we use a syntax which is understandable to the RIF community in the Primer, since the Primer is meant to give easy access to RIF?
15:36:02 [Gary]
csma: it does not conflict (means the same thing)
15:38:35 [csma]
q?
15:39:34 [Gary]
chris: I uploaded several editorial changes to the primer on the wiki
15:41:48 [Gary]
harold: we will change to If a Then b
15:43:01 [Gary]
csma: target a review in 2 weeks
15:43:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is here?
15:43:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, csma, ChrisW, AdrianP, Gary, Harold, MichaelKifer
15:43:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MichaelKifer, Gary, AdrianP, ChrisW, lmorgens, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, csma, AxelPolleres, sandro, trackbot
15:45:23 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
15:45:23 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
15:45:36 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
15:45:36 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose csma
15:45:43 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
15:45:43 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Gary
15:45:47 [dave]
dave has joined #rif
15:46:47 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:47:02 [csma]
Dave, don't leave! We have been waiting for you!
15:47:31 [csma]
action: Sandro t oreview RIF Primer by August 27
15:47:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1035 - T oreview RIF Primer by August 27 [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-08-03].
15:47:31 [Zakim]
+??P13
15:47:53 [csma]
action: Gary to review RIF Primer by August 27
15:47:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1036 - Review RIF Primer by August 27 [on Gary Hallmark - due 2010-08-03].
15:48:13 [csma]
zakim, next item
15:48:13 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "RIF in RDF" taken up [from csma]
15:49:49 [Gary]
sandro: differs from Dave R
15:50:08 [Gary]
... key issue: is RDF a KR?
15:51:35 [Gary]
dave: RIF is different from RDF. An encoding is closed world
15:58:13 [Gary]
sandro: instead of optional elements, use empty lists
15:58:56 [Gary]
dave: isn't this a corner case?
15:59:12 [sandro]
dave: I expect extensions to add namespaces, not so much to fiddle with the core elements.
16:00:47 [Gary]
csma: can a dialect mark a mandatory piece of core as optional?
16:00:53 [sandro]
sandro: I've gotten used to this idea that rif syntactic elements don't get changed by extensions, even if how they are used (eg their cardinality).
16:02:31 [Gary]
sandro: my mapping of xml to rdf requires that optional or repeated elements be lists
16:03:47 [Gary]
chris: I favor following existing xml syntax (and not lists)
16:06:26 [Gary]
csma: if you want to process a RIF XML document, you must understand RIF
16:07:24 [Gary]
sandro: wants RDF graph (encoding a RIF document) to be "stable" under various RDF transformations
16:08:31 [Gary]
... including open-world processing
16:09:22 [sandro]
sandro: It's important to me that people use RDF in an open-world KR sort of way. I don't want RIF-in-RDF to go the other way....
16:10:32 [Gary]
sandro: sparql 1.1 lets you query lists but order is not preserved
16:11:02 [sandro]
dave: It's important to me be able to use SPARQL to search for bits of rules -- 1.1 will provide that, so I can live with this.
16:12:09 [sandro]
In SPARQL 1.1 you CAN query for list members, but you can't get the elements back in order.
16:12:25 [sandro]
(sort of DESCRIBE on the list/rule)
16:12:44 [sandro]
dave: You won't write a parser in SPARQL, but it's good to be able to query for rule structures.
16:13:01 [sandro]
dave: I'd like the requirement phrased differently, though.
16:13:27 [Gary]
michael: neutral
16:14:37 [Gary]
... probably easier to do some transformations if lists are used
16:14:38 [sandro]
michael: The rule encoded in RDF is no longer a rule, so I no longer find the KR argument compelling. But transformations are probably easier with lists.
16:15:08 [sandro]
harold: OWL can express some rules, eg subsumption.
16:16:00 [Gary]
chris: using lists doesn't correspond to our xml syntax in an obvious, neat way
16:16:05 [sandro]
chris:What sways me against lists is the RDF and XML syntaxes not aligning as well.
16:17:07 [Gary]
sandro: no parallel to OWL2 xml to rdf mapping
16:20:18 [Harold]
The names used in the RDF syntax should be chosen as close to those of the XML syntax as possible.
16:20:56 [sandro]
the four optional/repeated properties are: directive, sentence, declare, formula
16:20:59 [Gary]
csma: prefer the mapping preserve the rif xml names, but not use lists
16:22:46 [Gary]
sandro: give enough time, would implement with and without lists and see what works out
16:23:05 [Gary]
... but to choose now, would choose lists
16:23:24 [Gary]
s/give/given
16:24:27 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Do RIF-in-RDF with repeated properties (instead of the list encoding)
16:24:31 [sandro]
-1
16:24:52 [ChrisW]
+1
16:24:57 [DaveReynolds]
+1
16:24:59 [Harold]
+1
16:25:03 [csma]
+1
16:25:08 [lmorgens]
0
16:25:10 [AdrianP]
+1
16:25:20 [sandro]
PROPOSED: Do RIF-in-RDF with the list encoding, instead of repeated properties.
16:25:23 [sandro]
+1
16:25:26 [DaveReynolds]
0
16:25:32 [csma]
0
16:25:35 [ChrisW]
0 (prefer cleaner correspondance to XML syntax)
16:25:38 [Harold]
0
16:25:41 [AdrianP]
0
16:25:50 [lmorgens]
0
16:26:07 [sandro]
RESOLVED: Do RIF-in-RDF with the list encoding, instead of repeated properties.
16:26:26 [csma]
RESOLVED: Do RIF-in-RDF with the list encoding, instead of repeated properties.
16:27:20 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:27:23 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
16:27:24 [AdrianP]
bye
16:27:28 [DaveReynolds]
bye
16:27:32 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif
16:27:35 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:27:36 [Zakim]
-Leora_Morgenstern
16:27:37 [csma]
zakim, list attendees
16:27:38 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
16:27:39 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, +33.1.49.08.aaaa, csma, +1.503.533.aabb, AdrianP, ChrisW, Gary, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer,
16:27:42 [Zakim]
... DaveReynolds
16:27:50 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/27-rif-minutes.html csma
16:30:40 [Zakim]
-Gary
16:32:21 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:32:22 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:32:23 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:32:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, +33.1.49.08.aaaa, csma, +1.503.533.aabb, AdrianP, ChrisW, Gary, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, DaveReynolds
17:47:04 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
17:47:52 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif