14:53:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:53:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/27-rif-irc
14:53:17 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/27-rif-minutes.html csma
14:53:25 <csma> rrsagent, make log public
14:53:46 <csma> Meeting: RIF telecon 27 July 2010
14:54:00 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:54:25 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jul/0032.html
14:54:45 <csma> csma has changed the topic to: RIF telecon 27 July; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jul/0032.html (csma)
14:55:25 <csma> Regrets: DaveReynolds
14:55:34 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
14:55:34 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:55:53 <csma> agendum+ Admin
14:56:16 <csma> agendum+ liaisons
14:56:24 <csma> agendum+ Actions review
14:56:52 <csma> agendum+ Feedback on SPARQL ER
14:57:06 <csma> agendum+ XML data
14:57:13 <csma> agendum+ Primer
14:57:23 <csma> agendum+ RIF in RDF
14:57:36 <csma> agendum+ Test cases
14:57:53 <csma> agendum+ AOB (next meeting: 10 August)
15:00:03 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:10 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:00:16 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:01:07 <lmorgens> lmorgens has joined #rif
15:01:37 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:01:53 <Zakim> + +33.1.49.08.aaaa
15:02:16 <csma> zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:16 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:02:17 <ChrisW_> ChrisW_ has joined #rif
15:02:34 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:43 <ChrisW_> yo zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:58 <ChrisW_> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:58 <Zakim> +ChrisW_; got it
15:03:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:49 <Zakim> + +1.503.533.aabb
15:04:16 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:04:29 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, csma, ChrisW_, [IPcaller], +1.503.533.aabb
15:04:40 <AdrianP> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:04:40 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
15:04:40 <ChrisW> zakim, ChrisW_ is me
15:04:41 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:04:47 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:04:47 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:05:07 <ChrisW> zakim, aabb is Gary
15:05:07 <Zakim> +Gary; got it
15:05:30 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:05:39 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:05:50 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me.
15:05:50 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:05:50 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:05:52 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:06:05 <csma> Scribenick: Gary
15:06:08 <ChrisW> Scribe: Gary
15:06:21 <csma> zakim, next item
15:06:21 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
15:06:29 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:06:40 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jul/att-0006/2010-07-13-rif-minutes.html
15:06:59 <csma> PROPOSED: approve the minutes of July 13 telecon
15:07:25 <csma> RESOLVED: approve the minutes of July 13 telecon
15:08:07 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:08:50 <Zakim> + +1.631.833.aacc
15:08:55 <csma> zakim, next item
15:08:55 <Zakim> agendum 2. "liaisons" taken up [from csma]
15:09:13 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aacc is me
15:09:13 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:09:33 <csma> zakim, next item
15:09:33 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, csma
15:09:44 <csma> zakim, close item 2
15:09:44 <Zakim> agendum 2, liaisons, closed
15:09:46 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:09:48 <Zakim> 3. Actions review [from csma]
15:09:57 <csma> zakim, next item
15:09:57 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Actions review" taken up [from csma]
15:10:13 <sandro> zakim, ping
15:10:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'ping', sandro
15:10:57 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, csma, ChrisW, AdrianP, Gary, Harold, MichaelKifer
15:11:50 <Gary> csma: removing string match from xml-data
15:13:49 <ChrisW> close action-1034
15:13:50 <trackbot> ACTION-1034 Contact Stella about test cases status closed
15:14:57 <csma> zakim, next item
15:14:57 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Feedback on SPARQL ER" taken up [from csma]
15:16:59 <Gary> sandro: a conversation with sparql makes more sense than a big review, because there are several issues
15:18:07 <Gary> ... ask Jos to send comments to sparql comments list
15:19:18 <Gary> csma: one issue is we think sparql should not restrict RIF
15:19:22 <csma> zakim, next item
15:19:22 <Zakim> agendum 5. "XML data" taken up [from csma]
15:20:12 <Gary> csma: incorporating Jos' and Michael's comments
15:20:39 <Gary> ... currently doc is in flux
15:21:47 <Gary> ... reduce size of xpath related material
15:21:49 <ChrisW> Harold, do you really want "skype highlighting" on your name in the Primer editors list?
15:22:46 <Gary> cmsa: use NCName to refer to many attributes and some elements that have no namespace
15:23:03 <Gary> ... no namespace => can't use rif:iri
15:24:18 <Gary> sandro: suggest using a dummy namespace
15:25:16 <Gary> ... or a local symbol
15:25:51 <sandro> I cant decide if using local is incredibly evil, or pretty clever.
15:28:15 <Gary> sandro: dummy namespace might be more straightforward
15:28:37 <Gary> ... but could offend some xml sensibilities
15:30:50 <Gary> csma: will go with dummy namespace for now
15:31:03 <csma> zakim, next item
15:31:03 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Primer" taken up [from csma]
15:31:33 <Gary> harold: making progress and have received some feedback
15:31:59 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Primer
15:33:01 <Gary> csma: why if (a,b) rather than if a then b?
15:33:39 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Primer#Conjunctions_and_Implications
15:34:31 <Gary> leora: came from common logic, but is fine with if a then b
15:35:31 <Gary> harold: don't want to confuse with PRD
15:36:01 <AdrianP> but shouldn't we use a syntax which is understandable to the RIF community in the Primer, since the Primer is meant to give easy access to RIF?
15:36:02 <Gary> csma: it does not conflict (means the same thing)
15:38:35 <csma> q?
15:39:34 <Gary> chris: I uploaded several editorial changes to the primer on the wiki
15:41:48 <Gary> harold: we will change to If a Then b
15:43:01 <Gary> csma: target a review in 2 weeks
15:43:08 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
15:43:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, csma, ChrisW, AdrianP, Gary, Harold, MichaelKifer
15:43:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see MichaelKifer, Gary, AdrianP, ChrisW, lmorgens, Harold, RRSAgent, Zakim, csma, AxelPolleres, sandro, trackbot
15:45:23 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:45:23 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
15:45:36 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:45:36 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose csma
15:45:43 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:45:43 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Gary
15:45:47 <dave> dave has joined #rif
15:46:47 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:47:02 <csma> Dave, don't leave! We have been waiting for you!
15:47:31 <csma> action: Sandro t oreview RIF Primer by August 27
15:47:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1035 - T oreview RIF Primer by August 27 [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-08-03].
15:47:31 <Zakim> +??P13
15:47:53 <csma> action: Gary to review RIF Primer by August 27
15:47:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1036 - Review RIF Primer by August 27 [on Gary Hallmark - due 2010-08-03].
15:48:13 <csma> zakim, next item
15:48:13 <Zakim> agendum 7. "RIF in RDF" taken up [from csma]
15:49:49 <Gary> sandro: differs from Dave R
15:50:08 <Gary> ... key issue: is RDF a KR?
15:51:35 <Gary> dave: RIF is different from RDF. An encoding is closed world
15:58:13 <Gary> sandro: instead of optional elements, use empty lists
15:58:56 <Gary> dave: isn't this a corner case?
15:59:12 <sandro> dave: I expect extensions to add namespaces, not so much to fiddle with the core elements.
16:00:47 <Gary> csma: can a dialect mark a mandatory piece of core as optional?
16:00:53 <sandro> sandro: I've gotten used to this idea that rif syntactic elements don't get changed by extensions, even if how they are used (eg their cardinality).
16:02:31 <Gary> sandro: my mapping of xml to rdf requires that optional or repeated elements be lists
16:03:47 <Gary> chris: I favor following existing xml syntax (and not lists)
16:06:26 <Gary> csma: if you want to process a RIF XML document, you must understand RIF
16:07:24 <Gary> sandro: wants RDF graph (encoding a RIF document) to be "stable" under various RDF transformations
16:08:31 <Gary> ... including open-world processing
16:09:22 <sandro> sandro: It's important to me that people use RDF in an open-world KR sort of way.    I don't want RIF-in-RDF to go the other way....
16:10:32 <Gary> sandro: sparql 1.1 lets you query lists but order is not preserved
16:11:02 <sandro> dave: It's important to me be able to use SPARQL to search for bits of rules -- 1.1 will provide that, so I can live with this.
16:12:09 <sandro> In SPARQL 1.1 you CAN query for list members, but you can't get the elements back in order.
16:12:25 <sandro> (sort of DESCRIBE on the list/rule)
16:12:44 <sandro> dave: You won't write a parser in SPARQL, but it's good to be able to query for rule structures.
16:13:01 <sandro> dave: I'd like the requirement phrased differently, though.
16:13:27 <Gary> michael: neutral
16:14:37 <Gary> ... probably easier to do some transformations if lists are used
16:14:38 <sandro> michael: The rule encoded in RDF is no longer a rule, so I no longer find the KR argument compelling.   But transformations are probably easier with lists.
16:15:08 <sandro> harold: OWL can express some rules, eg subsumption.
16:16:00 <Gary> chris: using lists doesn't correspond to our xml syntax in an obvious, neat way
16:16:05 <sandro> chris:What sways me against lists is the RDF and XML syntaxes not aligning as well.
16:17:07 <Gary> sandro: no parallel to OWL2 xml to rdf mapping
16:20:18 <Harold> The names used in the RDF syntax should be chosen as close to those of the XML syntax as possible.
16:20:56 <sandro> the four optional/repeated properties are: directive, sentence, declare, formula
16:20:59 <Gary> csma: prefer the mapping preserve the rif xml names, but not use lists
16:22:46 <Gary> sandro: give enough time, would implement with and without lists and see what works out
16:23:05 <Gary> ... but to choose now, would choose lists
16:23:24 <Gary> s/give/given
16:24:27 <sandro> PROPOSED: Do RIF-in-RDF with repeated properties (instead of the list encoding)
16:24:31 <sandro> -1
16:24:52 <ChrisW> +1
16:24:57 <DaveReynolds> +1
16:24:59 <Harold> +1
16:25:03 <csma> +1
16:25:08 <lmorgens> 0
16:25:10 <AdrianP> +1
16:25:20 <sandro> PROPOSED:  Do RIF-in-RDF with the list encoding, instead of repeated properties.
16:25:23 <sandro> +1
16:25:26 <DaveReynolds> 0
16:25:32 <csma> 0
16:25:35 <ChrisW> 0 (prefer cleaner correspondance to XML syntax)
16:25:38 <Harold> 0
16:25:41 <AdrianP> 0
16:25:50 <lmorgens> 0
16:26:07 <sandro> RESOLVED:  Do RIF-in-RDF with the list encoding, instead of repeated properties.
16:26:26 <csma> RESOLVED: Do RIF-in-RDF with the list encoding, instead of repeated properties.
16:27:20 <Zakim> -Harold
16:27:23 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:27:24 <AdrianP> bye
16:27:28 <DaveReynolds> bye
16:27:32 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has left #rif
16:27:35 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:27:36 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:27:37 <csma> zakim, list attendees
16:27:38 <Zakim> -AdrianP
16:27:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, +33.1.49.08.aaaa, csma, +1.503.533.aabb, AdrianP, ChrisW, Gary, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer,
16:27:42 <Zakim> ... DaveReynolds
16:27:50 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/27-rif-minutes.html csma
16:30:40 <Zakim> -Gary
16:32:21 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:32:22 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:32:23 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:32:25 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, Leora_Morgenstern, +33.1.49.08.aaaa, csma, +1.503.533.aabb, AdrianP, ChrisW, Gary, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, DaveReynolds
17:47:04 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
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