16:47:57 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:47:57 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc 16:47:59 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:47:59 Zakim has joined #ua 16:48:01 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:48:01 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 16:48:02 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:48:02 Date: 22 July 2010 16:49:41 sharper has joined #ua 16:50:09 trackbot, start meeting 16:50:10 chair: Ford_Kelly 16:50:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:50:14 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:50:14 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 16:50:15 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:50:15 Date: 22 July 2010 16:50:23 scribe: Harper_Simon 16:50:23 ScribeNick: sharper 16:51:02 meeting: User Agent Working Group Telecon - 22 July 2010 16:51:55 Agenda+ Action Item Review 16:51:55 Agenda+ Tracking UAAG implementations - complete browser of choice in tracking doc and we'll discuss during meeting. 16:51:55 Agenda+ Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August. 16:52:18 Links to key Documents: 16:52:18 editor versions 16:52:19 Guidelines - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100618/ 16:52:19 Implementing - 16:52:19 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100618/ 16:52:20 Public documents 16:52:21 Guidelines - http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-UAAG20-20100617/ 16:52:23 Implementing - http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100617/ 16:52:25 -- Attendance survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20100707/ 16:52:27 -- Scribe schedule and scribing help: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html 16:52:29 -- Please monitor your open Action Items: 16:52:31 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open 16:52:33 -- Open Issues: 16:52:36 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open 16:52:48 present+ Ford_Kelly 16:52:57 present+ Harper_Simon 16:53:12 regrets+ Hakkinen_Mark 16:53:48 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0017.html 16:54:06 rrsagent, make logs public 16:54:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:54:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper 16:54:21 zakim, save agenda 16:54:27 ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-agenda.rdf 16:58:31 Greg has joined #ua 16:58:37 regrets+Jim 16:58:46 /me thanks Simon for entering things. 16:59:04 rrsagent, make minutes 16:59:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html kford 16:59:39 present+ Lowney_Greg 16:59:56 regrets+ Allan_James 17:00:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:00:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper 17:00:15 zakim, agenda? 17:00:15 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 17:00:16 1. Action Item Review [from sharper] 17:00:17 2. Tracking UAAG implementations - complete browser of choice in tracking doc and we'll discuss during meeting. [from sharper] 17:00:19 3. Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August. [from sharper] 17:00:37 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:00:44 + +1.425.895.aaaa 17:01:21 Jan has joined #ua 17:01:37 zakim, aaaa is me 17:01:37 +Greg; got it 17:01:40 present+ Richards_Jan 17:01:50 zakim, code? 17:01:50 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan 17:02:20 +[IPcaller] 17:02:24 zakim, agzakim, code? 17:02:24 I don't understand your question, kford. 17:02:31 zakim, code? 17:02:31 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), kford 17:02:33 +??P2 17:02:35 zakim, ??P2 is sharper 17:02:35 +sharper; got it 17:02:47 zaki, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:02:55 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:02:55 +Jan; got it 17:03:06 +[Microsoft] 17:03:15 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:03:15 +kford; got it 17:05:07 +Jeanne 17:05:16 + +1.617.325.aabb 17:06:17 present+ Spellman_Jeanne 17:07:20 zakim, agenda? 17:07:20 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 17:07:21 1. Action Item Review [from sharper] 17:07:22 2. Tracking UAAG implementations - complete browser of choice in tracking doc and we'll discuss during meeting. [from sharper] 17:07:25 3. Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August. [from sharper] 17:07:43 present+ Patch_Kim 17:07:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:07:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper 17:08:04 zakim, take up item 1 17:08:04 agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from sharper] 17:08:09 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:08:23 zakim, take up item 3 17:08:23 agendum 3. "Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August." taken up [from sharper] 17:12:31 KF Try 09:00 to 15:00 West Coast? 17:12:46 KF: 2nd and 3rd? 17:12:53 JR: Can Join 17:13:24 KF: Seems like we can try 12:00 to 18:00 East Coast Time 17:13:56 KF: Informal / try to create an agenda next week 17:14:43 SH: I'm on Vacation 17:15:58 KF: will follow up with MH re European participation 17:16:06 jeanne has joined #ua 17:16:41 ACTION: kford to Summarise details / schedule of the informal meeting to the list. 17:16:41 Created ACTION-414 - Summarise details / schedule of the informal meeting to the list. [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-07-29]. 17:17:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:17:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper 17:17:18 zakim, close item 3 17:17:18 agendum 3, Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August., closed 17:17:20 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:17:21 1. Action Item Review [from sharper] 17:17:28 zakim, take up item 2 17:17:28 agendum 2. "Tracking UAAG implementations - complete browser of choice in tracking doc and we'll discuss during meeting." taken up [from sharper] 17:18:10 KF: Started to look at this last week via our informal document 17:20:01 GL: people wanted to use columns, results for main browsers - opera has a lot complete 17:20:16 GL: Completed much work on firefox 17:20:41 GL: also added comments columns 17:33:02 JR: Gathering implementations really help highlight problem areas in a spec. 17:33:40 Testing the guidelines against Firefox turned out to be very labor intensive, both because sometimes the success criteria prove ambiguous, in many cases you have to define, find, or create test cases, and in many cases you have to scour through lots of obscure documented and semi-documented advanced options to try to find if any will adjust the behavior you're testing. 17:33:52 -Jeanne 17:34:23 +Jeanne 17:34:33 KF: lets walk through guidelines and see what is implemented and what questions arise 17:35:26 KF: we should be able to see what SC's stand and which need more work. 17:38:19 ALL: General discussions on the 'What's Implemented Document' 17:38:24 This is the SC we are talking about. 17:38:27 3.1.1 Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user has the ability to have indicators rendered along with rendered elements that have alternative content (e.g. visual icons rendered in proximity of content which has short text alternatives, long descriptions, or captions). In cases where the alternative content has different dimensions than the original content, the user has the option... 17:38:28 ...to specify how the layout/reflow of the document should be handled. (Level A). 17:46:35 We're looking at 3.1.1. Kelly pointed out the 2nd sentence wasn't appropriate; Greg thought it was about the original content plus indicator, rather than the alternate content. General agreement to remove the second sentence, instead relying on the link to a separate success criterion about reflow options in the Related Resources section of the Implementing document. 17:57:47 Kelly notes that while we refer the reader to one, we haven't yet added the SC on user control of layout/reflow, so we should make sure there's an action item for creating that. 17:58:12 KF: we are going to have a numbe rof non trivial changes 17:58:47 Simon and Jan are concerned that if we're changing the SC as we go, test results will become invalid, so maybe we should not test too many browsers until the SCs are more firm. 18:00:13 Greg agreed that changes to the SC will require a new worksheet and manually porting columns with test results, adapting for changes to SC, renumbering, etc. 18:00:41 Simon suggests we split up the work of testing against one browser, rather than split our effort across five browsers at this early point. 18:02:44 Simon says another alternative is divide the guidelines into sections assigned to different people, who will test them against a browser of their choice. 18:03:10 KF Lets focus on Principle 3 for the moment 18:05:04 ACTION: jeanne to Update 3.1.1 SC to end end where the text in the case starts (cut out the second sentence) 18:05:04 Created ACTION-415 - Update 3.1.1 SC to end end where the text in the case starts (cut out the second sentence) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-29]. 18:06:04 3.1.1 needs to be updated to say: 18:06:07 3.1.1 Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user has the ability to have indicators rendered along with rendered elements that have alternative content (e.g. visual icons rendered in proximity of content which has short text alternatives, long descriptions, or captions). 18:06:09 . (Level A). 18:07:07 3.1.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has a global option to specify which types of alternative content by default and, in cases where the alternative content has different dimensions than the original content, how the layout/reflow of the document should be handled. (Level A) 18:07:26 For Firefox 3.6.6: Partial: Replacing images with alt text works for remote images but not for local images. Changing reflow might be possible with scripts or extensions. 18:08:13 GL: remove the reflow clause too 18:08:16 KF: agreed 18:13:10 KF/GL: What do we really mean by this? 18:13:47 GL: in implementing Document - KF but this doc is not by which we measure performance - JR Agree 18:14:39 Kelly noted that the SC needs to say specifically which types of alternative content are and are not required. 18:16:12 KF: Get people to say how they interpreted 'alt content' when the specify their conformance claims 18:17:10 JR: Recognised alternatives - people define these and then allow them to mould their claims around this 18:17:41 JR: people specify their environment and then make a claim based on those specifications 18:18:40 GL: Minimum we want to allow as a requirement in the conf claim is a subset of the recomentations 18:19:48 GL: We can't just limit it to recognised things, as everything will be recognised. If we allow a subset of things then we should specify these. 18:21:33 Jan points out that ATAG and UAAG use different meanings for "recognized". 18:21:58 GL: can we clarify in glossary 18:23:18 ACTION: Greg to Review the definition of "recognized", and see if modification is needed 18:23:18 Created ACTION-416 - Review the definition of "recognized", and see if modification is needed [on Greg Lowney - due 2010-07-29]. 18:24:06 ACTION: Jeanne to change 3.1.2 to 3.1.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has a global option to specify which types of alternative content to render by default. (Level A) 18:24:06 Created ACTION-417 - Change 3.1.2 to 3.1.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has a global option to specify which types of alternative content to render by default. (Level A) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-29]. 18:25:45 3.1.3 Browse and Render: The user can browse the alternatives, switch between them, and render them according to the following (Level A): * 1. synchronized alternatives for time-based media (e.g., captions, audio descriptions, sign language) can be rendered at the same time as their associated audio tracks and visual tracks, and * 2. non-synchronized alternatives (e.g., short text alternatives, lo 18:25:46 ng descriptions) can be rendered as replacements for the original rendered content. 18:30:57 GL: Screen magnification is a case to allow the removal of images 18:31:57 KP: Multiple images on a page - with small amounts of text at the bottom may have problems for limited mobility of continual paging 18:32:19 GL: Attention deficit problems is also a case 18:33:35 ALL still discussing these but the call ends. 18:34:16 rrsagent, make logs public 18:34:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:34:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper 18:34:32 zakim, please part 18:34:32 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.895.aaaa, Greg, sharper, Jan, kford, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aabb 18:34:32 Zakim has left #ua 18:34:33 We need to makes sure that some SC allows the user to turn off images, which is currently only addressed by 3.1.2 but poorly, as the current wording requires showing alternative text but doesn't require turning off images. 18:34:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:34:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper 18:35:12 rrsagent, please part 18:35:12 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-actions.rdf : 18:35:12 ACTION: kford to Summarise details / schedule of the informal meeting to the list. [1] 18:35:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc#T17-16-41 18:35:12 ACTION: jeanne to Update 3.1.1 SC to end end where the text in the case starts (cut out the second sentence) [2] 18:35:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc#T18-05-04 18:35:12 ACTION: Greg to Review the definition of "recognized", and see if modification is needed [3] 18:35:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc#T18-23-18 18:35:12 ACTION: Jeanne to change 3.1.2 to 3.1.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has a global option to specify which types of alternative content to render by default. (Level A) [4] 18:35:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc#T18-24-06