IRC log of ua on 2010-07-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:47:57 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:47:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc
16:47:59 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:47:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:48:01 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:48:01 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
16:48:02 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:48:02 [trackbot]
Date: 22 July 2010
16:49:41 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
16:50:09 [sharper]
trackbot, start meeting
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chair: Ford_Kelly
16:50:12 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:50:14 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:50:14 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:50:15 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:50:15 [trackbot]
Date: 22 July 2010
16:50:23 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
16:50:23 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
16:51:02 [sharper]
meeting: User Agent Working Group Telecon - 22 July 2010
16:51:55 [sharper]
Agenda+ Action Item Review
16:51:55 [sharper]
Agenda+ Tracking UAAG implementations - complete browser of choice in tracking doc and we'll discuss during meeting.
16:51:55 [sharper]
Agenda+ Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August.
16:52:18 [sharper]
Links to key Documents:
16:52:18 [sharper]
editor versions
16:52:19 [sharper]
Guidelines - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100618/
16:52:19 [sharper]
Implementing -
16:52:19 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100618/
16:52:20 [sharper]
Public documents
16:52:21 [sharper]
Guidelines - http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-UAAG20-20100617/
16:52:23 [sharper]
Implementing - http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100617/
16:52:25 [sharper]
-- Attendance survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20100707/
16:52:27 [sharper]
-- Scribe schedule and scribing help: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html
16:52:29 [sharper]
-- Please monitor your open Action Items:
16:52:31 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
16:52:33 [sharper]
-- Open Issues:
16:52:36 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open
16:52:48 [sharper]
present+ Ford_Kelly
16:52:57 [sharper]
present+ Harper_Simon
16:53:12 [sharper]
regrets+ Hakkinen_Mark
16:53:48 [sharper]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0017.html
16:54:06 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:54:06 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper
16:54:21 [sharper]
zakim, save agenda
16:54:27 [Zakim]
ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-agenda.rdf
16:58:31 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
16:58:37 [kford]
regrets+Jim
16:58:46 [kford]
/me thanks Simon for entering things.
16:59:04 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html kford
16:59:39 [sharper]
present+ Lowney_Greg
16:59:56 [sharper]
regrets+ Allan_James
17:00:06 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:00:15 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:00:15 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
17:00:16 [Zakim]
1. Action Item Review [from sharper]
17:00:17 [Zakim]
2. Tracking UAAG implementations - complete browser of choice in tracking doc and we'll discuss during meeting. [from sharper]
17:00:19 [Zakim]
3. Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August. [from sharper]
17:00:37 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aaaa
17:01:21 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:01:37 [Greg]
zakim, aaaa is me
17:01:37 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
17:01:40 [sharper]
present+ Richards_Jan
17:01:50 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:01:50 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
17:02:20 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:02:24 [kford]
zakim, agzakim, code?
17:02:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, kford.
17:02:31 [kford]
zakim, code?
17:02:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), kford
17:02:33 [Zakim]
+??P2
17:02:35 [sharper]
zakim, ??P2 is sharper
17:02:35 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:02:47 [Jan]
zaki, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:02:55 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:02:55 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:03:06 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:03:15 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
17:03:15 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:05:07 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:05:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aabb
17:06:17 [sharper]
present+ Spellman_Jeanne
17:07:20 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
17:07:20 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
17:07:21 [Zakim]
1. Action Item Review [from sharper]
17:07:22 [Zakim]
2. Tracking UAAG implementations - complete browser of choice in tracking doc and we'll discuss during meeting. [from sharper]
17:07:25 [Zakim]
3. Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August. [from sharper]
17:07:43 [sharper]
present+ Patch_Kim
17:07:54 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:07:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:08:04 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 1
17:08:04 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action Item Review" taken up [from sharper]
17:08:09 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:08:23 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 3
17:08:23 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August." taken up [from sharper]
17:12:31 [sharper]
KF Try 09:00 to 15:00 West Coast?
17:12:46 [sharper]
KF: 2nd and 3rd?
17:12:53 [sharper]
JR: Can Join
17:13:24 [sharper]
KF: Seems like we can try 12:00 to 18:00 East Coast Time
17:13:56 [sharper]
KF: Informal / try to create an agenda next week
17:14:43 [sharper]
SH: I'm on Vacation
17:15:58 [sharper]
KF: will follow up with MH re European participation
17:16:06 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:16:41 [sharper]
ACTION: kford to Summarise details / schedule of the informal meeting to the list.
17:16:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-414 - Summarise details / schedule of the informal meeting to the list. [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-07-29].
17:17:05 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:17:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:17:18 [sharper]
zakim, close item 3
17:17:18 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Coordinate details of informal UAAG writing meeting likely in early August., closed
17:17:20 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:17:21 [Zakim]
1. Action Item Review [from sharper]
17:17:28 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 2
17:17:28 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Tracking UAAG implementations - complete browser of choice in tracking doc and we'll discuss during meeting." taken up [from sharper]
17:18:10 [sharper]
KF: Started to look at this last week via our informal document
17:20:01 [sharper]
GL: people wanted to use columns, results for main browsers - opera has a lot complete
17:20:16 [sharper]
GL: Completed much work on firefox
17:20:41 [sharper]
GL: also added comments columns
17:33:02 [sharper]
JR: Gathering implementations really help highlight problem areas in a spec.
17:33:40 [Greg]
Testing the guidelines against Firefox turned out to be very labor intensive, both because sometimes the success criteria prove ambiguous, in many cases you have to define, find, or create test cases, and in many cases you have to scour through lots of obscure documented and semi-documented advanced options to try to find if any will adjust the behavior you're testing.
17:33:52 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
17:34:23 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:34:33 [sharper]
KF: lets walk through guidelines and see what is implemented and what questions arise
17:35:26 [sharper]
KF: we should be able to see what SC's stand and which need more work.
17:38:19 [sharper]
ALL: General discussions on the 'What's Implemented Document'
17:38:24 [kford]
This is the SC we are talking about.
17:38:27 [kford]
3.1.1 Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user has the ability to have indicators rendered along with rendered elements that have alternative content (e.g. visual icons rendered in proximity of content which has short text alternatives, long descriptions, or captions). In cases where the alternative content has different dimensions than the original content, the user has the option...
17:38:28 [kford]
...to specify how the layout/reflow of the document should be handled. (Level A).
17:46:35 [Greg]
We're looking at 3.1.1. Kelly pointed out the 2nd sentence wasn't appropriate; Greg thought it was about the original content plus indicator, rather than the alternate content. General agreement to remove the second sentence, instead relying on the link to a separate success criterion about reflow options in the Related Resources section of the Implementing document.
17:57:47 [Greg]
Kelly notes that while we refer the reader to one, we haven't yet added the SC on user control of layout/reflow, so we should make sure there's an action item for creating that.
17:58:12 [sharper]
KF: we are going to have a numbe rof non trivial changes
17:58:47 [Greg]
Simon and Jan are concerned that if we're changing the SC as we go, test results will become invalid, so maybe we should not test too many browsers until the SCs are more firm.
18:00:13 [Greg]
Greg agreed that changes to the SC will require a new worksheet and manually porting columns with test results, adapting for changes to SC, renumbering, etc.
18:00:41 [Greg]
Simon suggests we split up the work of testing against one browser, rather than split our effort across five browsers at this early point.
18:02:44 [Greg]
Simon says another alternative is divide the guidelines into sections assigned to different people, who will test them against a browser of their choice.
18:03:10 [sharper]
KF Lets focus on Principle 3 for the moment
18:05:04 [sharper]
ACTION: jeanne to Update 3.1.1 SC to end end where the text in the case starts (cut out the second sentence)
18:05:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-415 - Update 3.1.1 SC to end end where the text in the case starts (cut out the second sentence) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-29].
18:06:04 [kford]
3.1.1 needs to be updated to say:
18:06:07 [kford]
3.1.1 Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user has the ability to have indicators rendered along with rendered elements that have alternative content (e.g. visual icons rendered in proximity of content which has short text alternatives, long descriptions, or captions).
18:06:09 [kford]
. (Level A).
18:07:07 [kford]
3.1.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has a global option to specify which types of alternative content by default and, in cases where the alternative content has different dimensions than the original content, how the layout/reflow of the document should be handled. (Level A)
18:07:26 [Greg]
For Firefox 3.6.6: Partial: Replacing images with alt text works for remote images but not for local images. Changing reflow might be possible with scripts or extensions.
18:08:13 [sharper]
GL: remove the reflow clause too
18:08:16 [sharper]
KF: agreed
18:13:10 [sharper]
KF/GL: What do we really mean by this?
18:13:47 [sharper]
GL: in implementing Document - KF but this doc is not by which we measure performance - JR Agree
18:14:39 [Greg]
Kelly noted that the SC needs to say specifically which types of alternative content are and are not required.
18:16:12 [sharper]
KF: Get people to say how they interpreted 'alt content' when the specify their conformance claims
18:17:10 [sharper]
JR: Recognised alternatives - people define these and then allow them to mould their claims around this
18:17:41 [sharper]
JR: people specify their environment and then make a claim based on those specifications
18:18:40 [sharper]
GL: Minimum we want to allow as a requirement in the conf claim is a subset of the recomentations
18:19:48 [sharper]
GL: We can't just limit it to recognised things, as everything will be recognised. If we allow a subset of things then we should specify these.
18:21:33 [Greg]
Jan points out that ATAG and UAAG use different meanings for "recognized".
18:21:58 [sharper]
GL: can we clarify in glossary
18:23:18 [sharper]
ACTION: Greg to Review the definition of "recognized", and see if modification is needed
18:23:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-416 - Review the definition of "recognized", and see if modification is needed [on Greg Lowney - due 2010-07-29].
18:24:06 [sharper]
ACTION: Jeanne to change 3.1.2 to 3.1.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has a global option to specify which types of alternative content to render by default. (Level A)
18:24:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-417 - Change 3.1.2 to 3.1.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has a global option to specify which types of alternative content to render by default. (Level A) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-29].
18:25:45 [kford]
3.1.3 Browse and Render: The user can browse the alternatives, switch between them, and render them according to the following (Level A): * 1. synchronized alternatives for time-based media (e.g., captions, audio descriptions, sign language) can be rendered at the same time as their associated audio tracks and visual tracks, and * 2. non-synchronized alternatives (e.g., short text alternatives, lo
18:25:46 [kford]
ng descriptions) can be rendered as replacements for the original rendered content.
18:30:57 [sharper]
GL: Screen magnification is a case to allow the removal of images
18:31:57 [sharper]
KP: Multiple images on a page - with small amounts of text at the bottom may have problems for limited mobility of continual paging
18:32:19 [sharper]
GL: Attention deficit problems is also a case
18:33:35 [sharper]
ALL still discussing these but the call ends.
18:34:16 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:34:25 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:34:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:34:32 [sharper]
zakim, please part
18:34:32 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.895.aaaa, Greg, sharper, Jan, kford, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aabb
18:34:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:34:33 [Greg]
We need to makes sure that some SC allows the user to turn off images, which is currently only addressed by 3.1.2 but poorly, as the current wording requires showing alternative text but doesn't require turning off images.
18:34:41 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:34:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:35:12 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-actions.rdf :
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford to Summarise details / schedule of the informal meeting to the list. [1]
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc#T17-16-41
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to Update 3.1.1 SC to end end where the text in the case starts (cut out the second sentence) [2]
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc#T18-05-04
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Greg to Review the definition of "recognized", and see if modification is needed [3]
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc#T18-23-18
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to change 3.1.2 to 3.1.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has a global option to specify which types of alternative content to render by default. (Level A) [4]
18:35:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/22-ua-irc#T18-24-06