IRC log of CSS on 2010-07-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:49:43 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:49:44 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/21-CSS-irc
15:49:54 [plinss_]: rrsagent make logs public
15:50:03 [plinss_]: rrsagent, make logs public
15:50:09 [plinss_]: zakim, this will be style
15:50:09 [Zakim]: ok, plinss_; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
15:51:42 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
15:58:57 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:59:03 [Zakim]: + +1.206.324.aaaa
15:59:48 [Zakim]: + +1.858.216.aabb
15:59:56 [plinss_]: zakim, aabb is me
15:59:56 [Zakim]: +plinss_; got it
16:01:06 [bradk]: bradk has joined #css
16:01:38 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
16:01:47 [arronei]: I will be on the call in about 10 minutes if you could hold a little for the test suite update till I am on that would be great.
16:01:48 [Zakim]: +David_Baron
16:02:03 [Zakim]: +Bert
16:02:22 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:02:23 [Zakim]: + +1.408.636.aacc
16:02:30 [smfr]: Zakim, aacc is me
16:02:30 [Zakim]: +smfr; got it
16:02:46 [Zakim]: + +1.408.536.aadd
16:03:05 [szilles]: szilles has joined #css
16:03:11 [dbaron]: Zakim, aadd is SteveZ
16:03:11 [Zakim]: +SteveZ; got it
16:03:15 [dbaron]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:15 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.206.324.aaaa, plinss_, David_Baron, Bert, [Microsoft], smfr, SteveZ
16:03:51 [Zakim]: +??P24
16:03:52 [sylvaing]: Zakim, aaa is sylvaing
16:03:52 [Zakim]: sorry, sylvaing, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
16:03:58 [sylvaing]: Zakim, aaaa is sylvaing
16:03:58 [Zakim]: +sylvaing; got it
16:04:04 [CesarAcebal]: CesarAcebal has joined #css
16:04:33 [Zakim]: + +1.650.275.aaee
16:04:51 [bradk]: Zakim, aaee is me
16:04:51 [Zakim]: +bradk; got it
16:05:35 [dbaron]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:35 [Zakim]: On the phone I see sylvaing, plinss_, David_Baron, Bert, [Microsoft], smfr, SteveZ, ??P24, bradk
16:06:33 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
16:06:41 [arronei]: zakim, microsoft.a is me
16:06:41 [Zakim]: +arronei; got it
16:07:20 [ChrisL]: ChrisL has joined #css
16:08:02 [Zakim]: + +46.0.94.0.aaff
16:08:18 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
16:11:53 [szilles]: scribenick: szilles
16:11:55 [szilles]: <szilles>1. Republish 2007 Snapshot, MQ CR
16:11:56 [szilles]: <szilles>BB: no objection to re-publishing
16:11:58 [szilles]: <szilles>Resolved: Publish http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/ED-css3-mediaqueries-20100714/
16:12:26 [ChrisL]: In media queries, is it still true that "HTML has not yet been normatively updated to use media queries in the media attribute."?
16:12:34 [szilles]: Review sections 2 and 3 of MQ
16:12:49 [ChrisL]: thought html5 had been updated to use media queries
16:14:24 [szilles]: Resolution above was for Snapshot not MQ, MQ is now topic of discussion
16:15:10 [ChrisL]: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/common-microsyntaxes.html#mq
16:16:08 [szilles]: PL: Everythng else in MQ refers to HTML4
16:16:31 [szilles]: CL: not much point in refering to HTML 4.01 at this point
16:17:08 [dbaron]: If the reference is explaining the history, it should probably refer to the spec that was there at the time.
16:17:34 [szilles]: EE: There is no reason to have a forward reference to HTML5
16:18:04 [szilles]: CL: Since the reference is non normative, there is no reason not to update the references to HTML5 to be more timely
16:18:38 [szilles]: DB: the references to HTML4 are mostly indicating the history of the development of the MQ spec
16:19:26 [szilles]: BB: HTML5 is only a draft so we cannot assert that it is done and will not change.
16:19:58 [szilles]: CL: we could say that "the current draft of HTML5 has added ..."
16:20:35 [szilles]: Action (Anna): fix the reference to HTML5 as above
16:20:35 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - (Anna)
16:20:48 [fantasai]: s/Anna/Anne/
16:21:25 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Publish mediaqueries after updating note about media queries in HTML to point to HTMl5
16:21:38 [szilles]: Resolved: Publish MQ (URL above) with change suggested by CL
16:23:32 [szilles]: Resolved: Change "A minimum of another six months of the CR period must elapse" to the minimum CR period
16:23:55 [szilles]: EE: I believe the test suite exists it just needs to be posted
16:25:46 [szilles]: BB: Pub Rules require some date
16:26:05 [Zakim]: -bradk
16:26:21 [szilles]: CL: four weeks is a reasonalbe time; it would not constrain us and the test cases still need to be posted
16:26:34 [szilles]: s/reasonalbe/reasonable/
16:26:53 [szilles]: Test Suite
16:27:39 [szilles]: AE: Sent one mail on the likely invalid tests; need people to look at to see if they agree
16:28:15 [szilles]: AE: About to send test that do not pass in any browser; need people to check the tests in their area of responsibility
16:28:26 [szilles]: s/test/tests/
16:29:19 [szilles]: AE: Would love to have responses ideally by next phone call, but at least by the call in two weeks.
16:31:11 [szilles]: PL: Has anyone been working on their implementation reports?
16:31:22 [szilles]: AE: is there a template for the report?
16:31:36 [szilles]: EE: not, but I could make one if we agree on what it should have
16:32:08 [szilles]: AE and EE: to talk offline to agree on the format for the report
16:32:26 [szilles]: PL: Is the test harness that was developed still functional?
16:32:38 [szilles]: EE: not at all sure; I have not looked at it.
16:33:13 [szilles]: PL: is it worth spending some time to get that running again; it was designed to gather statistic and be a start to an implementation report
16:34:00 [szilles]: EE to contact Tab for help on this; PL can help and contact Matt Bonner
16:34:21 [szilles]: Open Issues:
16:34:33 [plinss_]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-110
16:35:00 [szilles]: Issue 110
16:36:32 [szilles]: DB: I believe Boris has objected (threatening formally) to this proposal
16:36:57 [szilles]: DB: The objection is that there is currently interoperable behavior
16:37:33 [szilles]: DB: The behavior is that abs pos'd elements generate cells
16:38:12 [szilles]: EE: the problem is that the number of cells generated is somewhat strange
16:38:56 [szilles]: EE: I cannot think of any other place where moving an abs pos element out of normal flow generates normal flow content
16:40:20 [szilles]: EE: the choices seems to be between defining the behavior the way authors would want it or the way that implementers would want it
16:40:57 [szilles]: SZ: How common is having an abs pos element as the sole content of a table cell?
16:42:12 [szilles]: s/sole content of a table cell/having a abs pos element as the direct content of a table cell or equivalent situations/
16:43:51 [szilles]: SZ: Is this enough of an edge case; is it sufficiently uncommon that leaving the existing behavior is OK if not really desirable
16:44:01 [szilles]: PL: That is my feeling
16:44:45 [szilles]: EE: There is nothing in the spec that would cause an abs pos element to have an affect on normal flow
16:45:18 [szilles]: EE: But, in this one case, the notion of a "placeholder" was introduced to describe the effect that was happening in tables
16:45:49 [fantasai]: But all the browser implementations implement abspos by introducing a "placeholder" in their formatting structure
16:45:55 [fantasai]: In most cases, this placeholder is not detectable
16:46:08 [fantasai]: but in table box generation it is detectable
16:46:25 [fantasai]: And so bz is saying to codify its existence, at least in this one case where it is detectable
16:46:37 [fantasai]: because all implementations chose to implement abspos this way and we have interop on it
16:46:49 [fantasai]: even though it makes no sense from the spec's point of view
16:46:52 [Zakim]: -Bert
16:47:25 [Zakim]: +Bert
16:47:44 [szilles]: PL: Does anyone have an objection to BZ's proposal
16:48:07 [szilles]: EE: I would like more input from the other implementers as to which way they would like to go
16:50:02 [Bert]: Is it the case that <tr><td psoition:absolute>a <td>b <td>c looks the same as <tr><td>b <td>c ?
16:50:06 [szilles]: CL: Other implementers, like Prince?
16:50:30 [fantasai]: Bert: <tr><td>a<td position:absolute>b<td>c</tr>
16:50:41 [fantasai]: Bert: looks the same as <tr><td>a<td><td>c</tr>
16:50:47 [szilles]: PL: Should this case in fact be codified or should it just be left undefined?
16:51:23 [fantasai]: Bert: Also, <tr><td>a<td position:absolute>b<td position:absolute>c<td>d</tr> looks the same as the above,too
16:51:34 [szilles]: CL: That depends on whether the other implemetations are willing to change; if not we would have to leave it undefined.
16:52:19 [szilles]: DB: It may be the case that other implementations do not even implement this part of the spec.
16:53:22 [szilles]: SZ: we need to send a note to the implementers we are aware of and ask which proposals they can live (and would be willing to change to)
16:54:24 [fantasai]: ACTION fantasai: Write proposal to deal with abspos in table box generation according to bz's proposal
16:54:24 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-246 - Write proposal to deal with abspos in table box generation according to bz's proposal [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-07-28].
16:54:27 [szilles]: action (EE): Add BZ's abs pos proposal to the proposal that I have already published
16:54:27 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - (EE)
16:55:58 [plinss_]: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-138
16:55:59 [szilles]: Issue 138
16:56:10 [szilles]: PL: this is awaiting feedback from Alex
16:56:49 [szilles]: SG: Alex thought the proposal was reasonable
16:56:51 [dbaron]: I don't see issue 138 on the issues list.
16:57:44 [plinss_]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0329.html
16:58:02 [szilles]: EE: I recall the float should move with rel pos of the containing block
16:58:04 [fantasai]: dbaron, try force-reloading. For some reason the issues list is being weird
16:58:11 [dbaron]: fantasai, reload woked
16:58:25 [szilles]: DB: Tab has revised the proposal
16:59:25 [szilles]: Question about the "contained in the block box" should not that be contained in the in-line block
16:59:26 [dbaron]: also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jul/0331.html
16:59:45 [szilles]: DB: there are two messages in the thread to that effect
16:59:58 [dbaron]: I'm happy with the revised proposal.
17:00:02 [szilles]: DB: I am happy with the revised proposal
17:00:09 [smfr]: me too
17:00:20 [szilles]: BB: it describes what I expect so I am happy to
17:00:46 [szilles]: Resoved: Proposal as modified by the two message is accepted
17:00:57 [Bert]: s/happy to/happy too/
17:01:02 [szilles]: s/Resoved/Resolved/
17:01:25 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
17:01:26 [Zakim]: -smfr
17:01:27 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
17:01:28 [Zakim]: -David_Baron
17:01:28 [Zakim]: - +46.0.94.0.aaff
17:01:29 [Zakim]: -arronei
17:01:31 [Zakim]: -sylvaing
17:01:32 [szilles]: Meeting adjourns at 10 PDT
17:01:34 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:01:38 [Zakim]: -plinss_
17:01:43 [szilles]: Zakim, make minutes
17:01:43 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'make minutes', szilles
17:01:44 [Zakim]: -??P24
17:02:09 [szilles]: zakim, minutes
17:02:09 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'minutes', szilles
17:02:52 [fantasai]: RRSAgent: make minutes
17:02:52 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/21-CSS-minutes.html fantasai
17:02:59 [fantasai]: RRSAgent: make logs public
17:03:00 [szilles]: zakim, attendees
17:03:00 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'attendees', szilles
17:03:28 [fantasai]: zakim will make that report once everyone's hung up
17:03:33 [fantasai]: usually
17:03:41 [fantasai]: I guess someone is still on the call?
17:04:39 [arronei]: arronei has joined #CSS
17:04:56 [smfr]: smfr has left #css
17:06:44 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, SteveZ, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:06:49 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:06:51 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.206.324.aaaa, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss_, David_Baron, Bert, [Microsoft], +1.408.636.aacc, smfr, +1.408.536.aadd, SteveZ, sylvaing, +1.650.275.aaee, bradk, arronei,
17:06:53 [Zakim]: ... +46.0.94.0.aaff, ChrisL
18:48:04 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
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