12:56:04 RRSAgent has joined #ssn 12:56:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-ssn-irc 12:56:14 rrsagent, bookmark 12:56:14 See http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-ssn-irc#T12-56-14 12:56:22 zakim, this will be inc_ssn 12:56:22 ok, laurent_lefort_cs; I see INC_SSN()9:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 12:56:33 Meeting: SSN XG 12:56:42 Chair: Laurent 12:57:29 Andriy has joined #ssn 12:57:29 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-ssn/2010Jul/0018.html 12:57:51 michael_ has joined #ssn 12:58:07 Previous: 2010-07-14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-ssn/2010Jul/0016.html 12:59:36 INC_SSN()9:00AM has now started 12:59:43 +[IPcaller] 13:00:10 +[IPcaller.a] 13:00:22 zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me 13:00:22 +michael_; got it 13:00:24 Arthur has joined #ssn 13:01:04 +[IPcaller.a] 13:01:33 + +44.190.827.aaaa 13:01:49 zakim, aaaa is me 13:01:49 +Andriy; got it 13:01:51 zakim, IPCaller is me 13:01:51 +Payam; got it 13:02:08 +[IPcaller] 13:02:25 zakim, [IPCaller] is me 13:02:25 +laurent_lefort_cs; got it 13:03:33 + +1.301.358.aabb 13:04:01 Regrets: Simon, David 13:06:37 krp has joined #ssn 13:06:53 krzysztof_j has joined #ssn 13:07:10 +[IPcaller] 13:07:32 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 13:07:32 +krzysztof_j; got it 13:07:47 + +44.797.376.aacc 13:08:01 zakim, +44.797.376.aacc is me 13:08:01 +krp; got it 13:08:29 Bermudez_Luis has joined #ssn 13:09:15 scribenick: Andriy 13:09:54 yes 13:10:56 Topic: Foundational layer (Krzysztof) 13:11:47 (jano) 13:12:50 Jano: Alignment with DOLCE: whether we need it 13:12:52 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Foundational_layer 13:13:15 Wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Foundational_layer 13:14:09 Jano: there is some confusion in the terminology 13:14:33 Jano recapping what happens previously 13:16:06 ... Why we need a top level (claims!): 13:16:57 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/File:Intendedmodel_small.png 13:16:58 Jano: claim 1: restricting potential interpretations 13:17:59 Jano: Intended model = what you like to capture 13:18:31 ... The ontology can only approximate the intended model 13:18:39 ... and should be larger 13:19:41 Jano: Example: sensor having a manufacturer -> assumes that sesnsor are created by manufacturers 13:19:59 Jano: ... not covering humans as sensors 13:22:10 s/sesnsor/sensor/ 13:23:23 Jano: cannot have optional ontological commitment 13:26:20 clear to me 13:26:23 questions? 13:27:14 Jano: proposal: integrate observations ontology with DOLCE 13:30:03 Jano: otherwise: cannot check whether some interpretations are different from each other 13:31:46 Laurent: 3 types of users: 13:32:09 3 types of users: 13:32:09 ... ontologists which agrees with our alignement 13:32:09 ... ontologists which disagrees with our alignement 13:32:09 ... non-ontologists 13:33:07 +q 13:33:07 Laureant: Non-ontologists: domain specialists who we are trying to persuade to use ontologies 13:33:23 +q 13:33:51 Laurent: Are we focusing on "non-ontologists" or not? 13:33:54 s/Laureant/Laurent/ 13:34:48 +q 13:35:37 Jano: alignment with DOLCE gives the tool to understant basic modelling principles 13:35:53 Jano: even non-ontologist can benefit from the alignment 13:35:58 ack krzysztof_j 13:36:03 DOLCE is 13:36:09 yes we can 13:36:35 Payam: is DOLCE used in linked data context? 13:36:40 +q 13:37:14 +q 13:37:55 Jano: hard to say which ontologies will be used in the end but the work is on-going 13:37:55 ack Payam 13:38:20 ack, thanks 13:38:57 ack Bermudez_luis 13:39:45 Michael: cannot restrict the model entirely, even with alignment 13:39:46 we dont fix it we restrict it 13:41:19 michael: adding an alignmemnt make it more difficult for the users because of the tools limitations 13:41:43 this is an important issue; it could limit usability of our ontology 13:42:20 michael: non ontologists may not see the upper ontology anyway 13:42:44 ack michael_ 13:42:46 +q 13:42:52 ack krp 13:44:04 (good paper "Linked Data is Merely More Data" knoesis.wright.edu/library/publications/linkedai2010_submission_13.pdf) 13:44:21 Kevin: I dont think non-ontologist will be helped by the alignment 13:45:45 yeah, I don't think it will *directly* help the non-ontologist... it only helps indirectly by ensuring clarity and rigour from us 13:45:50 +q 13:45:52 Jano: even restricting to the level of foundational concepts is already useful 13:47:41 Jano: DOLCE comes in different versions, there are lots of examples 13:48:06 DOLCE ultra-light can be usable by "non-ontologists" 13:48:33 +q 13:50:32 ack Payam 13:50:37 +q 13:50:42 ack krzysztof_j 13:50:50 (can we vote about 1 vs 2) 13:50:50 Payam: 2 versions: ssn-full vs ssn-light 13:50:51 +q 13:51:07 ack michael_ 13:51:12 Payam: ssn-full with DOLCE and ssn-light w/o 13:52:50 great! 13:53:25 +q 13:53:45 ack krzysztof_j 13:53:59 Payam: DOLCE ultra-light conceptual level not very extensive 13:54:09 +q 13:54:16 ack Payam 13:54:25 ack krzysztof_j 13:54:40 +q 13:57:00 Laurent: when we are bringing new users, they are usually concerned with only a part of the ontology 13:57:38 ok, i prefer version 1, if everybody prefers option2 this is still fine. please let us just decide on it. 13:57:42 +q 13:58:33 +q 13:58:51 ack michael_ 13:59:08 (sorry) 13:59:48 Vote 1st pass: do we want to align +1 = yes -1 = no 13:59:54 +1 13:59:57 +1 13:59:57 +1 13:59:57 +1 13:59:58 +1 13:59:58 +1 13:59:59 +1 14:01:12 +1 14:01:28 2nd option: have a fixed alignment DUL + Our-Sensor-Top + our Sensor-Device 14:01:59 3nd option: have a fixed alignment DUL + Our-Sensor-Top and an *optional* alignment between Our-Sensor-Top + Sensor-Device 14:02:36 (3rd) 14:03:07 lol 14:03:21 Vote for all-fixed-align +1 optionally-align -1 14:03:33 -1 14:03:36 ? 14:03:39 +q 14:03:50 +1 14:04:17 Clarification 2nd option = +1 and 3rd option = -1 14:04:17 +q 14:04:31 ack krzysztof_j 14:04:41 ack Bermudez_luis 14:05:01 - +1.301.358.aabb 14:05:10 Is there any reason we can't look at the proposed alignment, then decide if it's "optional"? 14:05:24 My call got disconnected 14:05:35 +q 14:05:47 (I'm torn, on principal I see it's doesn't entirely make sense for optional, but that's hard to judge without studying the implications) 14:06:25 Michael: sensor-top and sensor-device are overlapped 14:06:30 We would use CGI between them 14:07:25 +q 14:07:40 GCI 14:08:15 +q 14:08:27 ack michael_ 14:08:49 I cannot get to the call.. so my vote .. [DUL + Sensor Top] +1 and [Sensor Top + Sensor Device] +1 14:08:54 +q 14:09:07 luis: thnaks, me too 14:09:11 ack michael_ 14:10:00 (but which one if the official) 14:10:12 Payam: why not to have an aligned ontology + script to create a non-aligned one 14:10:15 ok, i agree with that 14:10:45 michael: can we do the official one with the alignement and have a "simplification" script for the non-ontologists 14:10:47 i agree witht he simplification script if the default version if the fixed alignment version 14:11:06 +q 14:11:11 I'm satisfied and ready to vote 14:11:18 me too 14:11:31 Andriy, it was Michael, not Payam - no worries 14:11:33 [ayam:we have the alignment see: 14:11:42 http://www.personal.psu.edu/kuj13/OuM/OuM.owl 14:12:22 i would propose to got for michael's proposal 14:12:39 +1 14:12:48 (sorry) 14:12:51 Vote: alignment + method to simplify 14:12:54 +1 14:12:56 +1 14:12:59 +1 14:13:02 +1 14:13:04 +1 14:13:07 +1 14:13:08 +1 14:14:55 Laurent: we need to close as many parts of the ontology as possible and document them 14:15:20 Laurent: more examples are needed 14:16:08 thanks! 14:16:27 thanks, bye 14:16:29 -krzysztof_j 14:16:30 thanks, bye 14:16:30 -Payam 14:16:31 -michael_ 14:16:31 -krp 14:16:34 -Arthur 14:16:38 thanks, bye 14:16:41 -Andriy 14:17:00 -laurent_lefort_cs 14:17:02 INC_SSN()9:00AM has ended 14:17:04 Attendees were michael_, +44.190.827.aaaa, Arthur, Andriy, Payam, laurent_lefort_cs, +1.301.358.aabb, krzysztof_j, krp 14:21:15 rrsagent, make log public 14:21:31 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:21:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs 14:22:01 s/[ayam/Payam/ 14:22:23 s/witht/with/ 14:23:43 s/Payam: why not to have an aligned/michael: why not to have an aligned/ 14:24:42 s/CGI/GCI/ 14:26:01 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:26:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs 14:27:16 s/thnaks/thanks/ 14:28:05 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:28:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs 14:28:13 rrsagent, please generate minutes 14:28:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/20-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs