IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-07-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:28:52 [Judy]
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15:00:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:00:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:00:08 [Zakim]
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15:00:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:00:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:11 [trackbot]
Date: 15 July 2010
15:00:19 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:00:19 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:00:33 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
15:00:33 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:00:39 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:00:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Janina, Michael_Cooper
15:01:17 [paulc]
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15:02:19 [Zakim]
15:03:12 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
15:03:12 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:03:13 [Zakim]
15:03:49 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:03:50 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:03:50 [janina]
agenda: this
15:03:50 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
15:03:50 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
15:03:50 [janina]
agenda+ Subteam Reports
15:03:52 [janina]
agenda+ Remaining Deliverables & Timelines Discussion
15:03:52 [MichaelC]
regrets+ Cynthia_Shelly
15:03:54 [janina]
agenda+ TF at TPAC 2010
15:03:55 [MichaelC]
regrets+ Marco_Ranon
15:03:56 [janina]
agenda+ CAPTCHA survey:
15:03:58 [janina]
agenda+ TF Recommendations Followup at the WG Diescussion
15:04:00 [janina]
agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs & Bug triage
15:04:02 [janina]
agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:04:04 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:04:32 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, Mike is me
15:04:32 [Zakim]
+MikeSmith; got it
15:04:43 [Ben]
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15:05:09 [JF]
15:05:23 [oedipus]
oedipus has joined #html-a11y
15:05:31 [Zakim]
15:05:37 [Ben]
zakim, ??P3 is Ben_Caldwell
15:05:37 [Zakim]
+Ben_Caldwell; got it
15:05:58 [paulc]
I am still booting up and will join by phone ASAP.
15:06:02 [Zakim]
15:06:44 [JF]
Actions Review Mike C: there is some Canvas Actions what shouel we do?
15:06:58 [JF]
Janina - await Steve F & Rich S to join the call
15:07:06 [JF]
Action 22
15:07:06 [trackbot]
Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
15:07:22 [MichaelC]
action-22 due 1 Nov
15:07:23 [trackbot]
ACTION-22 Organize joint discussion of testing task force and html a11y task force due date now 1 Nov
15:07:33 [JF]
Advance to Nov 1 and turn into Tech Pleneray issue
15:07:39 [Zakim]
15:07:57 [Zakim]
15:08:05 [JF]
15:08:08 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:08:08 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
15:08:13 [richardschwerdtfe]
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15:08:38 [JF]
Mike C: is this an actual action item, or just a reminder
15:08:41 [JF]
15:08:49 [MichaelC]
close action-44
15:08:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-44 - monitor status of @alt in HTML5 spec; when SteveF's Alt Guidance is published, ensure that what is in SteveF's note supersedes or corrects HTML5 verbiage; propose changes to HTML5 based on SteveF's alt doc closed
15:08:51 [JF]
shouold we close it as an action?
15:08:53 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
15:08:53 [Zakim]
MikeSmith should now be muted
15:08:53 [JF]
15:09:04 [JF]
15:09:37 [MichaelC]
close action-46
15:09:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-46 Work with WAI UAWG to find home for "image analysis heuristics" text from HTML5 spec (HTML WG issue 66) closed
15:10:11 [oedipus]
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15:10:27 [janina]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:10:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Janina, Michael_Cooper, kliehm, MikeSmith (muted), Ben_Caldwell, Gregory_Rosmaita, Rich, [Microsoft]
15:10:29 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
15:10:33 [JF]
15:10:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:10:53 [JF]
Steve F has a number of actions assigned - will wait for him to join us or defer
15:11:07 [JF]
3 open actions re: Canvas
15:11:26 [MichaelC]
close action-12
15:11:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-12 Ensure there is a dependency between the HTML5 specification and the HTML 5 2D Context specification to ensure that the author has the ability to set the visible focus, for <canvas>, to ensure that a magnifier may follow the visual focus. This would be driven by the shadow DOM. closed
15:11:28 [oedipus]
regrets+ Kenny_Johar
15:12:35 [JF]
Rich: is this group just handling HTML, or is it looking at media queries, etc.?
15:12:48 [JF]
Greg: believes it should be in the PFWG
15:13:00 [JF]
we should discuss coordination with them
15:13:17 [JF]
RichL HTML spec suggests do whateve the media queries says
15:13:32 [JF]
Eric: would like to be involved in that effort as well
15:14:24 [MichaelC]
close action-17
15:14:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-17 Define CSS attributes and meta data for alternative content selection closed
15:14:50 [Zakim]
15:15:07 [MikeSmithX]
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15:15:22 [JF]
Actions section completed
15:15:24 [MichaelC]
action-17: migrated to PF ACTION-692
15:15:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-17 Define CSS attributes and meta data for alternative content selection notes added
15:15:26 [MichaelC]
close action-19
15:15:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-19 Work with the Canvas API subteam to include and API for caret tracking that drive magnfication closed
15:15:37 [JF]
SubTeam reports
15:15:38 [oedipus]
rich, there was a thrad on changing the media group tactile to have 2 media types tactual (non-natural language based tactile images) and braille (natural language based tactile output) -- gottfried (i think) and i had an exchange on it and janina liked the idea but thought the verbiage was too confusing -- will follow-up via email
15:15:45 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipius
15:15:48 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipus
15:16:12 [MikeSmithX]
Zakim, call Mike
15:16:12 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmithX; the call is being made
15:16:14 [Zakim]
15:16:28 [oedipus]
JF: Media Sub-Team update: making good progress turning requirements into technical requirements
15:16:35 [MikeSmithX]
Zakim, Mike is me
15:16:35 [Zakim]
+MikeSmithX; got it
15:16:39 [oedipus]
JF: worked thorugh 50% of requirements
15:16:42 [MikeSmithX]
Zakim, mute me
15:16:42 [Zakim]
MikeSmithX should now be muted
15:16:43 [Zakim]
15:16:56 [oedipus]
JF: encourage people outside of subteam to weigh in and offer feedback and comments as things progress
15:17:03 [Stevef]
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15:17:32 [oedipus]
JF: need to have technical requirements and user requirements stable enough to advance to the HTML WG next week -- perhaps 10 days left before moving reqs higher up the HTML5 food chain
15:17:54 [JF]
Thanks to Greg
15:17:56 [oedipus]
zakim, +??P9 is Steve_Faulkner
15:17:56 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P9'
15:18:01 [oedipus]
zakim, ??P9 is Steve_Faulkner
15:18:01 [Zakim]
+Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:18:06 [JF]
Steve F on ARIA mappings
15:18:12 [JF]
not much has happened in the past week
15:18:23 [JF]
have already provided a change proposal and a bug
15:18:38 [JF]
HTML chairs have requested bug be expedited
15:18:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:19:14 [JF]
Janina: wants to know about the change Proposal
15:19:20 [oedipus]
s/scribenick: oedipius//
15:19:47 [JF]
now that we have a bug, se should now have an agenda item to vote a resolution to advance the change proposal
15:19:56 [oedipus]
i/<scribe>JF/scribe: John_Foliot
15:20:06 [oedipus]
i/<scribe>JF/scribenick: JF
15:20:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:20:14 [JF]
spec text exists, but what is need is feedback and consensus around the change proposal
15:20:24 [JF]
SteveF asking about getting a poll around this
15:20:58 [oedipus]
i/Thanks to Greg/scribenick: JF
15:21:00 [JF]
Janina: appears process is sticking point - work is ready
15:21:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:21:10 [JF]
can we bring this work to the group for next week?
15:21:21 [JF]
SteveF: what does this entail?
15:21:40 [JF]
Janina: should we run a survey on this?
15:21:45 [oedipus]
s/a thrad on changing/a thread on changing/
15:21:52 [JF]
SteveF: makes it a more formal 'support' from the TF
15:22:24 [JF]
hopefully people will read the proposal before voting - not yet had any response on the draft change propsal
15:22:49 [JF]
SteveF: suggests overall question: after reviewing the changes, do you support them?
15:23:05 [JF]
are there more than one question to be asked here?
15:23:53 [JF]
Rich: everything is in the proposal, (needs some minor edits)
15:24:13 [JF]
SteveF: we want people to review the text we choose to replace, based upon the proposal
15:24:45 [JF]
PaulC: not sure if a survey is the best forum for that question/decision
15:24:54 [oedipus]
strong plus 1 to CfC
15:24:56 [JF]
likely could happen via emails
15:25:06 [oedipus]
make TF members read the text before commenting
15:25:34 [JF]
Rich: reason for suggesting a poll is that if people have an issue with a certain section they could highlight
15:25:46 [JF]
Janina: this could be highly granular quickly
15:26:10 [JF]
SteveF: the main thrust is that the current starting point is whlely unsuitable in the current spec
15:26:24 [JF]
what we don't want to get into is a point-by-point comparrison
15:26:34 [JF]
but rather seeks an alternative starting point
15:26:44 [JF]
it goes to philosphy more than actual text
15:27:16 [oedipus]
regrets+ : Denis_Boudreau
15:27:31 [JF]
Do we support an approach that suggests that ARIA does not introduce a confromance issue
15:27:46 [JF]
Janina : lets keep it simple
15:28:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:28:27 [JF]
SteveF: we have already put it out for comment, thinks a Chair should ask for 'closure'
15:28:55 [oedipus]
s/SubTeam reports/TOPIC: SubTeam Reports/
15:29:00 [JF]
Janina: Discussion on remaining deliverables and time-lines
15:29:09 [JF]
talking about TPAC as a deadline
15:29:26 [JF]
some discussion that this might slip slightly
15:29:36 [oedipus]
i/talking about TPAC/TOPIC: TPAC 2010 Meeting Planning
15:29:39 [JF]
but we are targetting to be comple in this calendar year
15:29:49 [JF]
ARIA, drag-n-drop...
15:30:09 [JF]
does anyone think that DnD have issues that will stall beyond year end
15:30:42 [JF]
the 1 or 2 others are media a11y
15:30:51 [JF]
and the other is "accesskey"
15:31:00 [JF]
perhaps looking at a name-change
15:31:07 [JF]
to access-command
15:31:31 [JF]
what PF will be forwarding is a set of user requirements
15:31:35 [oedipus]
GJR notes that these are set of requirements for satisfying navigational requirements, not on specific attributes or elements -- those will be decided upon by TF
15:31:37 [Stevef]
15:31:47 [JF]
with no recommendation on *how* it is to be met
15:31:56 [JF]
expect work to start on that within the week
15:32:27 [JF]
anyone have any thoughts on what work will entail? anyone see a reason why this cannot be completed by end of October?
15:32:47 [JF]
Greg: have started to take what is in HTML5 re: accesskey to see what (if anything) is lacking
15:33:01 [Zakim]
15:33:02 [JF]
will report back to Tf
15:33:16 [JF]
looking at accesskey, tabindex and command
15:33:35 [JF]
this is what is in, this is what is out, and can it (they) meet the requirements
15:33:45 [JF]
Greg: I beleive we can get this done and fixed
15:33:53 [oedipus]
ack ste
15:34:12 [JF]
SteveF: what happens with the whole text alternatives issue
15:34:13 [MikeSmithX]
q+ to note that we got feedback from Gez on drag-and-drop
15:34:26 [Stevef]
15:34:31 [JF]
Janina: that is still on the agenda
15:34:36 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute me
15:34:36 [Zakim]
MikeSmithX should no longer be muted
15:34:44 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute Mike
15:34:44 [Zakim]
MikeSmithX was not muted, MikeSmith
15:34:57 [JF]
while we still have deliverables, the only one we are not sure we can deliver in time for TPAC is the media issue
15:34:59 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, who's muted?
15:34:59 [Zakim]
I see no one muted
15:35:15 [JF]
everything else appears on target
15:35:51 [JF]
MikeS: want to mention about DragnDrop that we have seen some feedback
15:35:56 [MikeSmith]
15:36:00 [MikeSmith]
15:36:05 [MikeSmith]
ack Mike
15:36:05 [Zakim]
MikeSmithX, you wanted to note that we got feedback from Gez on drag-and-drop
15:36:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:36:37 [JF]
Janina: Task Force at TPAC - hoping to get this group together then and there
15:36:55 [JF]
depends on our agenda at that point
15:37:01 [oedipus]
i/SubTeam reports/TOPIC: SubTeam Reports/
15:37:03 [JF]
Next: CAPTCHA survey
15:37:36 [JF]
Janina: this has been discussed, and this might be resolving iteslf through changes in the spec
15:38:02 [JF]
Greg: I think we need to keep an eye on this, and if it is out of the next 2 publications, we can rest easy
15:38:07 [JF]
keep in our back pocket
15:38:47 [JF]
Discussion now: we as TF need to become a little more formal about our reccomendations to the WG
15:39:05 [JF]
we have already sent a number up, and are in process at the WG
15:39:20 [JF]
encourage all to continue to work on these issues at the higher WG level
15:39:34 [JF]
if there is a survey we can continue to particpate
15:39:49 [JF]
Janina: we should discuss how to track these proposals now
15:39:51 [oedipus]
i/Discussion now:/TOPIC: TF relationship to HTML WG & Keeping 1 up-to-date with the other
15:40:18 [Stevef]
15:40:34 [JF]
we have a responsibility to follow through and tracking our recommendations
15:40:55 [JF]
is the wiki sufficient to track these issues?
15:41:12 [oedipus]
15:41:15 [oedipus]
ack ste
15:42:15 [JF]
SteveF: Laura has been asking about some ARIA attributes and feedback
15:42:26 [JF]
on the list, with little feedback outside of SteveF
15:42:55 [oedipus]
SteveF post "rationale for role=presentation"
15:42:56 [JF]
SteveF thinks however that ARIA-labeledby is not appropriate
15:43:03 [JF]
and provided his rationale
15:43:29 [JF]
laura is still looking for other rationales as this is/was a request from the chairs
15:43:37 [oedipus]
15:44:16 [JF]
correction: aria-label is under question, not labeledby
15:44:57 [Zakim]
15:45:18 [JF]
Greg: the text in the spec is not in line with discussion. believes that it needs to be naked attributes without the aria prefix
15:45:27 [JF]
JF: why?
15:45:54 [JF]
Greg: believes there are a number of aria properties should be non-prefixed in the spec
15:46:33 [oedipus]
JF: saying primary reason to remove prefix is ease-of-authoring? no matter what we call is secondary to functionality needed
15:46:54 [oedipus]
JF: have aria deployed today -- in effect, abandoning something trying to establish
15:47:03 [oedipus]
JF: could introduce confusion
15:47:14 [janina]
15:47:21 [janina]
ack o
15:47:35 [Stevef]
15:48:07 [oedipus]
JF: GJR saying change name of attribute -- but already have implementation into new name with aria- prefix
15:48:15 [oedipus]
JF: less author confusion with aria- prefix
15:49:03 [oedipus]
JF: get GJR's rationale, but flip side of coin is need to say "don't forget to do these things" and here is how
15:49:52 [oedipus]
JF: worried that opening a huge new can of worms -- aria- prefix allows us to advance them all forward -- don't want to go down a rathole
15:50:37 [oedipus]
JS: if make change, have to pull back rec and go with another one - could be politically problematic
15:50:38 [eric_carlson]
+1 !
15:50:40 [JF]
SteveF: agrees with JF
15:50:54 [oedipus]
SF: advises gregory to bring up in TF
15:50:59 [JF]
What material changes with the name change?
15:51:13 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute me
15:51:13 [Zakim]
MikeSmithX should now be muted
15:51:38 [JF]
Greg: aria-* carries a weight with it. what does it mean to the average developer
15:52:03 [JF]
we need to ensure that things remain backward compatable
15:52:34 [JF]
if @alt is going to be deprecated or made obsolete then we need to ensure native attributes
15:53:03 [JF]
SteveF: nobody is suggesting to make ALT obsolte, but rather we want to provide additional means of achieving the end goal
15:53:19 [JF]
it's about increased choice, not change
15:54:24 [Zakim]
15:54:34 [JF]
Greg: believes that the WG has been putting up barriers for ARIA adoption, and so wants things to be modular
15:55:15 [JF]
JaninaL if we send a rec forward, and then decide later that it is not correct, we lose cred
15:55:52 [JF]
Janina: this group voted out the ALT text issue a few weeks back
15:56:05 [oedipus]
GJR also doesn't want ARIA "frozen" at 1.0 in HTML5
15:56:12 [JF]
there was a rationale for labeled a few weeks back
15:56:28 [JF]
SteveF: Laura keeps asking for that rationale, and it has not come forward
15:58:05 [JF]
SteveF: it is more than just a name-change, it is about introducint something new to HTML5
15:58:40 [JF]
Greg: feels that ARIA is a cludge targeted at AT
15:59:03 [JF]
SteveF: user agents can be encouraged to provide equiv. functionality to user as well
15:59:41 [oedipus]
s/feels that ARIA is a cludge targeted at AT/feels that use of ARIA in HTML5 that is not native is a kludge
15:59:55 [JF]
Janina: must cut this short as it is the top of hour. Does anyone else want to re-visit this guidance?
16:00:18 [JF]
suggest moving this discussion onto the list for further follow-up
16:01:01 [JF]
Suggests making follow-ups on status of recommendations as part of weekly agenda - seems to have met approval
16:01:15 [JF]
final item - how to follow up on outstanding open bugs
16:01:43 [oedipus]
i/final item/TOPIC: Bug Report Triage & Handling SubTeam Proposal
16:01:43 [JF]
Mike C and laura logical bug shepards, but looking for other volunteers
16:02:06 [Zakim]
16:02:23 [Zakim]
16:02:24 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop me
16:02:24 [Zakim]
16:02:24 [Zakim]
16:02:26 [Zakim]
MikeSmithX is being disconnected
16:02:26 [Zakim]
16:02:27 [Zakim]
16:02:38 [janina]
janina has left #html-a11y
16:02:41 [Laura]
Laura has joined #html-a11y
16:02:50 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Janina, Michael_Cooper, kliehm, MikeSmith, Ben_Caldwell, Gregory_Rosmaita, Rich, paulc, MikeSmithX,
16:02:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:02:53 [Zakim]
... Steve_Faulkner
16:02:55 [JF]
zakim, please part
16:03:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:03:44 [Ben]
Ben has left #html-a11y
16:05:00 [JF]
rrsagent, please part
16:05:00 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items