14:57:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:57:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-forms-irc
14:57:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
14:57:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_Forms
14:57:19 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:57:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:57:20 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2010
14:57:53 <Steven_> zakim, this will be forms
14:57:53 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:58:23 <pfennell> pfennell has joined #forms
14:58:52 <wiecha> wiecha has joined #forms
14:58:57 <Steven_> Regrets: Erik, Leigh, Uli
14:59:09 <Steven_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0013.html
14:59:13 <Steven_> Chair: Steven
14:59:21 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-forms-minutes.html Steven_
14:59:27 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
14:59:34 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:59:36 <Zakim> + +33.5.40.05.aaaa
14:59:42 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM is me
14:59:42 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
14:59:43 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617
14:59:43 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made
14:59:45 <nick> nick has joined #forms
14:59:45 <Zakim> +Steven
15:00:08 <alain> alain has joined #forms
15:00:10 <Steven_> zakim, aaaa is Alain
15:00:10 <Zakim> +Alain; got it
15:00:15 <nick> zakim, code?
15:00:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), nick
15:00:31 <Steven_> zakim, I am Steven
15:00:31 <Zakim> ok, Steven_, I now associate you with Steven
15:01:09 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:02:07 <Zakim> + +44.782.483.aabb
15:02:27 <Steven_> zakim, aabb is pfennell
15:02:27 <Zakim> +pfennell; got it
15:03:16 <pfennell> I'm in the office at the moment so I'll be mostly on 'Mute' to keep the noise down.
15:03:42 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:04:37 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:05:39 <nick> scribe: nick
15:06:15 <nick> TOPIC   Upcoming telecons  
15:06:31 <nick> steven:   Next is July 21, 2010; Steven to chair.  after that I'm on holiday
15:06:44 <nick> TOPIC:   New Draft Tutorial  
15:07:10 <Zakim> -Alain
15:07:40 <Zakim> +Alain
15:07:42 <nick> steven: New version is on-line   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0011.html it now contains live forms
15:08:38 <nick> steven: I would like people to have a look at it and send in comments (both editorial and structural changes are welcome) during my vacation
15:09:18 <nick> TOPIC: The replace attribute for method put and method delete 
15:09:37 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0008.html
15:10:20 <nick> John: Uli responded to this and said it is possible to send a response for PUT and DELETE
15:11:08 <nick> John_Boyer: We talked about this in the past, and said it wasn't important enough to make a special case for it
15:11:17 <nick> TOPIC:   Parse and serialize function  
15:11:37 <Steven_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0006
15:15:33 <nick> nick: parse() and serialize() are in XPath 2.1, so if we add them they should be as close as possible to those, and maybe we should say how you can add xpath 2.x functions to XForms
15:15:51 <nick> John_Boyer: we already have a couple of functions in our spec
15:16:48 <nick> nick: In XPath 2.0 you have a default function namespace, in most languages equal to the xpath functions and operators ns 
15:17:32 <nick> John_Boyer: we decided in the past to add our functions in our namespace when we add support for xpath 2.0
15:18:08 <nick> John_Boyer: we could add this new functions in xforms ns, XPath 1.0 supports name spaced functions too
15:18:46 <nick> John_Boyer: we could add all our functions in the XForms name space also if using XPath 1.0 engine
15:23:45 <nick> Steven_: was your question to point to the xpath spec and not to incorporate them in our spec
15:23:49 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
15:24:20 <nick> nick: yes, I would prefer not to add all the usefull XPath functions to our spec
15:25:40 <nick> John_Boyer: we have the possibility already by the functions attribute on model, the functions could be added as extensions
15:27:26 <nick> John_Boyer: If we are concerned if a function is not fully compatible with the XPath 2.x version we could add it as an only namespace qualified function
15:27:47 <klotz> with the same local name? ugh
15:29:11 <Steven_> We did that with id()
15:30:03 <nick> Steven_: Are we now finished on this topic
15:30:26 <John_Boyer> Leigh, did you mean to imply that using the same local name *without namespace qualifying it* is an ugh?
15:32:10 <nick> John_Boyer: All new XForms functions will only be available in the XForms namespace
15:32:52 <nick> John_Boyer: Al functions from XF11 are both available in the default and the XForms Namespace
15:33:22 <klotz> topic done but to answer John_Boyer's question, I am concerned about having two functions with the same local name and different behavior; with id we justfiied it by saying it's just argument overloading (added instance id).
15:33:43 <nick> RESOLUTION: All new XForms functions will only be available in the XForms namespace, all functions that are available in XForms 1.1 will be available in both the default and the XForms namespace
15:33:55 <Steven_> Topic: * xforms 1.1 view refresh question  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2010Apr/0015.html  Responses  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2010Apr/0016.html  (related to switch/@case?)  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2010Apr/0017.html  Is this closed?
15:35:30 <nick> Steven_: Does the spec requires a refresh to set the to their default case?
15:35:41 <nick> John_Boyer: No, I think we also answered it
15:35:48 <nick> John_Boyer: not to be the case
15:35:58 <Steven_> Topic: * switch/@appearance  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Mar/0048.html
15:37:52 <nick> John_Boyer: The idea was that on the FtF we had different expectations of a switch, which were different in nature not only 'appearance'
15:38:36 <nick> Steven_: On a server side implementation the non relevant cases aren't sent to the client
15:39:07 <nick> John_Boyer: with AJAX you can simulate the zombie case
15:39:09 <unl> unl has joined #forms
15:41:35 <nick> Steven_: explains that we need to be careful not to introduce dependencies on a lot of communication between client and server (JavaScript)
15:41:37 <pfennell> I need to step out for a moment.
15:43:12 <Zakim> + +1.307.544.aacc
15:43:20 <nick> John_Boyer: The decision was that the appearance attribute wasn't the attribute that we should use, if we add an extra attributes some implementation should do more then they do today (not available versus available for non selected cases)
15:43:26 <unl> zakim, +1.307.544.aacc is me
15:43:26 <Zakim> +unl; got it
15:43:32 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:43:32 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
15:43:38 <Steven_> regrets-uli
15:43:49 <nick> John_Boyer: In some cases the users use the switch as a multiple page wizard
15:44:35 <nick> John_Boyer: In this case they want to keep receiving events for the non displayed cases (e.g.: to build an error overview)
15:46:46 <nick> John_Boyer: reminds us of why we sometimes want to receive the events in non selected cases
15:48:29 <pfennell> Sorry about that, I'm back now.
15:50:12 <nick> John_Boyer: we say in the spec that non selected cases non-relevant, because we want to disable events and style it as hidden
15:50:52 <nick> John_Boyer: the spec says that you can style non-relevant controls
15:52:55 <nick> Steven_: the use case is that we want to make non-relevant cases live, the question is how are we accomplish this feature
15:53:23 <nick> Steven_: is it a property of the case and/or the switch
15:53:50 <nick> John_Boyer: For now it is a property of the switch
15:55:14 <klotz> for the multi-page wizard use case we may want to associate state with the switch (as with @ref) so that constraints can be applied only during certain cases (state machine).
15:55:15 <nick> John_Boyer: We could even maybe to add buttons atomically to toggle to the cases 
15:55:59 <nick> John_Boyer: We add an attribute cases-are-live with values true/false
15:57:10 <nick> Steven_: do you think that the automatic buttons only are available in the live case?Isn't it another feature that is useful in both cases
15:57:28 <klotz> <cases-are-live value="instance('foo')/path/to/something" />?
15:58:28 <Zakim> -unl
15:58:30 <Zakim> -Steven
15:58:31 <Zakim> -pfennell
15:58:31 <Zakim> -wiecha
15:58:32 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
15:58:34 <Zakim> -Alain
15:58:39 <nick> Steven_: The the two use cases are:
15:58:39 <nick> 1) The ease of authoring to automatically add buttons
15:58:39 <nick> 2) The liveness of non-relevant cases
15:58:44 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:58:45 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
15:58:47 <Zakim> Attendees were [IBM], +33.5.40.05.aaaa, wiecha, Steven, Alain, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, +44.782.483.aabb, pfennell, John_Boyer, unl
15:59:06 <nick> rrsagent, make minutes  
15:59:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-forms-minutes.html nick
15:59:21 <John_Boyer> liveness *and absence* of non-selected cases
15:59:48 <John_Boyer> people wanted non-selected cases to be absent, not just non-relevant
15:59:54 <nick>  rrsagent, make minutes  public
15:59:54 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes  public', nick.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:00:02 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:00:08 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
16:00:23 <John_Boyer> yes
16:00:54 <klotz> bye
16:01:12 <klotz> thanks nick
16:01:34 <nick> rssagent, bye
16:01:58 <nick>   rrsagent, bye  
16:01:58 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:07:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
16:07:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-forms-irc
16:07:51 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-forms-minutes.html Steven_
16:08:27 <Steven_> s/TOPIC Upcoming telecons/TOPIC: Upcoming telecons
16:08:42 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:08:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-forms-minutes.html Steven_
17:59:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms