15:23:06 RRSAgent has joined #core 15:23:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-irc 15:23:13 Zakim has joined #core 15:23:21 RRSAgent, set logs world-visible 15:23:29 Meeting: Internationalization Teleconference 15:23:32 Chair: Addison Phillips 15:23:36 Scribe: Addison Phillips 15:23:40 ScribeNick: aphillip 15:24:03 Agenda:http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Jul/0000.html 15:24:36 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:24:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html aphillip 16:19:15 zakim, this will be I18N 16:19:15 ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes 16:24:39 David has joined #core 16:26:56 najib has joined #core 16:27:28 Aharon has joined #core 16:28:24 I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM has now started 16:28:32 + +972.7.474.6aaaa 16:29:00 matial has joined #core 16:29:46 r12a has joined #core 16:29:56 + +44.141.888.aabb 16:30:04 Norbert has joined #core 16:30:04 zakim, dial richard please 16:30:04 ok, r12a; the call is being made 16:30:06 +Richard 16:30:15 zakim, +44 is David 16:30:15 +David; got it 16:30:21 +Addison_Phillips 16:30:49 fsasaki has joined #core 16:31:31 + +972.5.225.5aacc 16:31:39 + +1.415.283.aadd 16:32:00 zakim, mute me 16:32:00 sorry, Aharon, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 16:32:09 zakim, mute norbert 16:32:09 Norbert should now be muted 16:32:29 zakim, mute me 16:32:29 Aharon should now be muted 16:32:40 +[IPcaller] 16:33:01 Topic: Agenda 16:33:15 zakim, unmute me 16:33:15 Aharon should no longer be muted 16:33:24 Agenda:http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Jul/0000.html 16:33:42 aharon: DOM3 keyboard events 16:33:59 zakim, mute me 16:33:59 Aharon should now be muted 16:34:23 zakim, unmute norbert 16:34:23 Norbert should no longer be muted 16:34:36 http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/214 16:34:42 norbert: http content-language 16:35:00 zakim, mute norbert 16:35:01 Norbert should now be muted 16:35:05 Topic: Action Items 16:35:19 addison: forward date-time proposal to HTML WG 16:35:45 ACTION: addison: blurb the -u- extension last call 16:35:49 richard: publish the b and i tags/elements document 16:35:56 DONE 16:35:57 zakim, mute me 16:35:57 Aharon was already muted, Aharon 16:36:31 richard: send our comments and questions to the html wg on polyglot document 16:36:39 DONE 16:36:51 Topic: Info Share 16:37:15 http://unicode.org 16:37:20 richard: unicode is now cool 16:37:30 ... they tweet and fb and rss and such 16:37:45 .. and they did their first such announcement yesteray 16:38:47 zakim, unmute me 16:38:47 Aharon should no longer be muted 16:38:48 Topic: DOM3 keyboard events 16:39:07 richard: forwarding to our list 16:39:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2010JulSep/0018.html 16:40:06 aharon: basically the proposal is to add another field (attribute) to DOM3 key events 16:40:10 ... and also text events 16:40:15 ... which are new to DOM3 16:40:29 ... new attribute would indicate the language of the keyboard 16:40:40 ... would be a string (locale), in BCP 47 format 16:40:52 aharon: use case: smart quotes 16:41:16 ... differ by language so user-agent could convert based on input keyboard 16:41:43 ... and on-line editors might want to do the same thing 16:42:02 ... basing on the UI language is not necessarily the document language 16:42:12 aharon: bidi use case is... 16:42:37 ... word looks at keyboard language to decide if neutral character such as a number or punctuation 16:42:47 ... to decide if part of ltr or rtl string 16:43:39 zakim, unmute norbert 16:43:39 Norbert should no longer be muted 16:46:01 norbert: active spell checker might be a better choice 16:46:43 ... no need to switch layout/input locale to type various languages 16:47:00 zakim, mute norbert 16:47:00 Norbert should now be muted 16:47:07 aharon: keyboard language could be useful hint 16:51:46 richard: ability to turn off, etc. 16:54:43 addison: input locale may be more than just the language, includes other info, such as input mode or layout?? 16:55:33 ... warnings about usage might be important 16:56:17 aharon: generate markup or unicode controls could be generated based on this to control bidi? provides an option for this 16:56:27 ... doesn't necessarily impact html req doc 16:56:54 mati: somewhat uncomfortable 16:57:00 ... use cases are different things 16:57:18 ... smart quotes are language dependent, for example (and language => locale in many cases) 16:57:28 ... so smart quotes make some sense perhaps 16:57:38 ... but bidi use case is not locale dependent 16:58:32 addison: input locale != system locale 17:03:51 mati: not sure indicator for first use case is same as what's needed for second case 17:04:04 ... mixing things together 17:04:38 aharon: usually don't indicate what language I'm typing, but still need to type documents in various languages (he, ru, en, etc) 17:04:52 mati: but might use same keyboard for en, fr, de 17:05:24 ... don't have to switch keyboards to type for example a lot of latin script languages 17:05:38 ... it's a cultural preference connected to current content language, not the keyboard 17:06:04 aharon: system locale is not indicative there either 17:06:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html aphillip 17:06:38 mati: in hebrew layout you can input latin (ltr) text from it too 17:07:02 ... I don't think it's a good indicator for smart quotes 17:07:21 zakim, unmute norbert 17:07:21 Norbert should no longer be muted 17:07:46 norbert: matter of documentation... here's a facility, insufficient in and of itself, but can be useful 17:08:29 ... interesting to see if there is another use case in which the input language can be used more specifically 17:09:05 zakim, mute norbert 17:09:05 Norbert should now be muted 17:09:07 addison: maybe change speller if the key event indicates a keyboard change? 17:11:01 ACTION: Aharon: draft text proposal for keyboard language/input locale attribute for DOM3 key events 17:11:30 zakim, unmute norbert 17:11:30 Norbert should no longer be muted 17:11:33 zakim, mute me 17:11:33 Aharon should now be muted 17:11:34 Topic: HTTP Content-language 17:11:35 http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/214 17:11:53 norbert: was in a meeting with mnot a few weeks ago 17:12:05 ... discussing content language 17:12:20 ... he wrote a ticket, so what do we want in HTTP spec 17:12:54 (quoting) Some people have interpreted the "of the intended audience" as meaning that this header indicates the language of the user, not the language of the content. As a result (for better or worse), current practice in the i18n community is to ignore this header (although there are other reasons, e.g., the lack of accuracy in the event of multiple languages being present). Proposal: remove "the intended audience for" 17:13:24 richard: aligning with HTML @lang doesn't make sense 17:14:14 ... intended as metadata, not as document processing language 17:14:30 ... think it's a bad idea 17:14:54 norbert: mnot@ thinks it might be editing error, but you're saying this is intentional? 17:15:14 richard: yes, it is a way of specifying information about langauges in document as a whole 17:15:23 ... the intended audience 17:15:39 norbert: is anyone using as intended? 17:16:00 richard: when content negotiation happens, it is filled in based on accept-language (etc) 17:16:37 norbert: any user agents use this? 17:16:48 richard: there are some browsers that start to interpret 17:17:12 ... such as choosing fonts for CJK, or :lang styling 17:18:52 addison: TMS or CMS systems can/do use it?? 17:20:01 +matial.a 17:20:06 -matial 17:20:10 ... not necessarily broken? 17:20:31 richard: some implementations do odd things, such as assign multiple langauges to all content in a document 17:20:55 ... let's keep these things distinct and clear and separate 17:21:39 ... roy fielding 17:22:01 ... look for Issue-88 in html archive for examples 17:22:55 chair: do we want to take a position on this? 17:23:17 norbert: proposal: don't remove "intended audience" and make clear that it is not document processing language 17:24:24 addison: think that http today says something like that (not the same as indicating all languages used in content) 17:24:45 chair: any objections to this being our position? 17:25:05 [[ 17:25:06 The docs at 17:25:06 http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-http-and-lang 17:25:06 are correct. It would be best if HTML5 didn't break them 17:25:06 and all of the systems that depend on those semantics being 17:25:06 part of the Web architecture. 17:25:08 zakim, unmute me 17:25:08 Aharon should no longer be muted 17:25:09 ]] 17:25:21 zakim, mute me 17:25:21 Aharon should now be muted 17:25:46 I am in favor 17:25:57 norbert: +1 17:26:00 addison: +1 17:26:05 richard: +1 17:26:14 none opposed 17:26:25 fine by me too 17:26:40 Me too 17:26:42 ACTION: Norbert: update ticket for httpbis to indicate our WG's position 17:26:48 [[ 17:26:49 The HTTP headers refer to the entire representation. If the 17:26:50 representation is intended to have an audience of multiple 17:26:50 languages, as is often the case when side-by-side translation 17:26:50 is desired or mandated, then the content should be labeled 17:26:50 appropriately. That use case is often found in government 17:26:51 documents, poetry, lieder, language lessons, dictionaries, etc. 17:26:53 I would expect HTML content to be tagged as a single language, 17:26:55 if any, at some element level, whereas meta and link should 17:26:57 support multiple languages at the resource or representation 17:26:59 level. 17:27:01 ]] 17:27:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html aphillip 17:27:22 Topic: AOB? 17:27:51 -aphillip 17:27:52 -Aharon 17:27:52 -Norbert 17:27:53 -Richard 17:27:54 -matial.a 17:27:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html aphillip 17:27:56 -David 17:28:02 -Felix 17:28:03 I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM has ended 17:28:05 Attendees were +972.7.474.6aaaa, +44.141.888.aabb, Richard, David, aphillip, +972.5.225.5aacc, +1.415.283.aadd, matial, Norbert, Aharon, [IPcaller], Felix 17:28:11 zakim, bye 17:28:11 Zakim has left #core 17:28:18 rrsagent, make minutes 17:28:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-minutes.html aphillip 17:28:21 rrsagent, bye 17:28:21 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-actions.rdf : 17:28:21 ACTION: addison: blurb the -u- extension last call [1] 17:28:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-irc#T16-35-45 17:28:21 ACTION: Aharon: draft text proposal for keyboard language/input locale attribute for DOM3 key events [2] 17:28:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-irc#T17-11-01 17:28:21 ACTION: Norbert: update ticket for httpbis to indicate our WG's position [3] 17:28:21 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/07/14-core-irc#T17-26-42