20:01:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:01:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-svg-irc
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20:01:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:01:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()4:00PM scheduled to start now
20:01:09 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:01:09 <trackbot> Date: 13 July 2010
20:01:53 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()4:00PM has now started
20:01:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:02:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
20:02:26 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:02:26 <Zakim> sorry, ed, I do not recognize a party named '[IP'
20:02:37 <ed> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
20:02:37 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:02:51 <anthony_w> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
20:02:51 <Zakim> +anthony_w; got it
20:02:56 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/0026.html
20:05:51 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:06:43 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.77.aaaa
20:08:20 <anthony_w> scribenick: anthony_w
20:08:25 <anthony_w> scribe: anthony
20:08:29 <anthony_w> chair: Erik
20:09:03 <anthony_w> Topic: Last Call Comments Status
20:09:19 <anthony_w> ED: I saw Chris sent an email stating his status on his LC comments
20:09:21 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/0027.html
20:09:54 <anthony_w> ... doesn't think there is anything there that can be closed
20:10:22 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/24
20:10:56 <anthony_w> ... I closed off mine which was gaussian blur
20:10:58 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2345
20:11:31 <anthony_w> ... Today is the final day of the Last Call period
20:12:14 <anthony_w> TB: There are some problems where CSS style don't have a unit
20:12:23 <anthony_w> DS: We should put that in the tracker
20:12:26 <anthony_w> ... or fix it
20:12:31 <anthony_w> ED: We should do both
20:12:36 <anthony_w> ... can you raise an issue
20:12:40 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/
20:14:00 <anthony_w> ED: I'm not sure if it is a simple as adding the units
20:14:08 <anthony_w> ... I think there should be some explanation as well
20:15:01 <anthony_w> ... Does the feImage issue need changes in the spec?
20:15:18 <anthony_w> TB: I need to think about if so
20:15:26 <anthony_w> ... may need to clarify it
20:16:18 <anthony_w> ... somethings need to be changed in the Inkscape implementation
20:16:37 <anthony_w> ED: I have done some work on the testsuite. I've added some tests from Microsoft
20:16:44 <anthony_w> ... so there are some new tests to review
20:18:18 <anthony_w> ... I will have two weeks to finish remaining actions then I will be on holidays
20:18:49 <anthony_w> ... might not be able to have all comments ready before SVG Open
20:19:01 <anthony_w> DS: I spoke to PLH about this
20:19:17 <anthony_w> ... we need a patent exclusion period as well
20:19:50 <anthony_w> ... we could do a pole as an alternative, but we need all the AC reps to vote
20:19:56 <anthony_w> ... would take some effort
20:20:07 <anthony_w> ... we'll almost be done by the SVG Open anyway
20:20:13 <anthony_w> ... will be in Proposed Rec
20:20:35 <anthony_w> ED: From Chris's email the Mime Type registration will be slightly urgent
20:20:42 <anthony_w> DS: Not urgent for us
20:21:35 <anthony_w> ... It's urgent for the group doing the registration
20:21:55 <anthony_w> ED: No other updates. Doug do you have any actions on LC?
20:21:58 <anthony_w> DS: I think I have one
20:22:17 <anthony_w> ... There was the whole idea of the security problem
20:22:48 <anthony_w> ED: Probably possible to put something in
20:23:13 <anthony_w> ... The function that causes the problem is not part of SVG
20:23:37 <anthony_w> ... So I think the suggestions made by ROC are ok
20:23:49 <anthony_w> ... the first part is fine. The second part needs some work with the details
20:24:06 <anthony_w> DS: ED, why don't you and I correspond on this
20:24:15 <anthony_w> ... and put something in the spec next week
20:24:29 <anthony_w> ED: I think we have all the last call comments with actions on them
20:26:00 <anthony_w> Topic: Catmull-Rom curves
20:26:07 <shepazu> http://schepers.cc/?p=243
20:26:47 <anthony_w> DS: This is just a loose proposal
20:27:17 <anthony_w> TB: Inkscape has spiral curves which are similar
20:27:34 <shepazu> http://www.levien.com/spiro/
20:27:52 <anthony_w> DS: Dave Crossland suggested Spiral
20:28:25 <shepazu> http://schepers.cc/?p=243#spiro
20:28:38 <shepazu> s/Spiral/Spiro/
20:29:21 <anthony_w> DS: If you look at that link. If you compare his spiro curves and mine
20:29:28 <anthony_w> ... his look a lot better
20:29:33 <anthony_w> ... not sure how he does that
20:30:07 <anthony_w> ... the advantage of the Cutmull-Rom curve if you just give a set of points
20:30:32 <anthony_w> ... with every number corresponds to a number.
20:31:13 <anthony_w> ... It looks like with Spiro curves points have a different characteristic
20:31:29 <anthony_w> TB: Can have arrows, squares etc
20:31:58 <anthony_w> ... I think Font Forge implements up to the 4th order continuity
20:32:04 <anthony_w> ... Inkscape up to the 2nd order
20:32:22 <anthony_w> DS: It is possible to specify a syntax
20:32:59 <anthony_w> ... Depending on the tension between the points. It will either have a looser or tighter loop between the points
20:33:35 <anthony_w> ... Cutmull-Roms are not so straight forward
20:34:29 <anthony_w> ... with Spiro we can specify it with 3 points. x,y, and magnitude/tension
20:34:44 <anthony_w> TB: In Inkscape. This is what's called a live path effect
20:34:51 <anthony_w> ... Inkscape has it's own name space
20:35:23 <anthony_w> ... it has it's own path and then it creates an SVG bezier line
20:36:06 <anthony_w> DS: That's what I did. I'm looking for Cutmull-Rom curves then converting them to bezier curves
20:36:18 <anthony_w> ... I'm doing essentially what Inkscape is doing
20:36:24 <anthony_w> ... but that's not what we want to do
20:36:55 <anthony_w> ... when we decide on new functionality we should have the syntax supported
20:36:59 <anthony_w> TB: There are two things
20:37:29 <anthony_w> ... In the Inkscape name space there is "d" that keeps track of the curve
20:37:33 <anthony_w> ... similar to SVG
20:37:45 <anthony_w> ... then there is a Sodipodi node type
20:38:23 <anthony_w> DS: Chris seemed to like this idea
20:38:38 <anthony_w> ... the problem with extending path is it is no longer backwards compatible
20:38:57 <Tav> inkscape:original-d  m 320,360 c 55.9322,38.13559 159.32203,-116.77966 200,-160 40.67796,-43.22034 160,40 160,40 l 0,120
20:39:09 <Tav> sodipodi
20:39:14 <anthony_w> ... if I had one of these shapes and older SVG UA would not recognise it
20:39:25 <anthony_w> ED: It would up to a  ppoint
20:39:27 <Tav> sodipodi:nodetypes
20:39:30 <anthony_w> s/ppoint/point/
20:39:48 <anthony_w> DS: It wouldn't render the same
20:40:02 <Tav> sodipodi:nodetypes cscc
20:40:03 <anthony_w> ED: Would need some scripted solution to make it render the same
20:40:38 <ed> ed: so in older UA:s at least you could count on rendering up to the point where the old UA finds an "error" in the path syntax
20:40:41 <anthony_w> DS: If we add parameters and some other things, we already break backwards compatibility
20:40:44 <Tav> d: M 320,360 C 334.57304,317.36037 361.51706,279.02944 396.70395,250.87993 431.89083,222.73043 475.2014,204.85768 520,200 c 55.8061,-6.05126 113.60698,8.39896 160,40 l 0,120
20:41:13 <anthony_w> TB: I think Inkscape would go along with it
20:42:43 <anthony_w> ... if you turn off the live path effect that is what you would see
20:43:18 <anthony_w> ... Inkscape is using the SVG syntax to store an generate the point
20:43:25 <anthony_w> DS: I think there is some data missing
20:43:34 <anthony_w> ... can you send something to the list
20:44:42 <anthony_w> ... we need to figure out what the syntax would be
20:44:58 <anthony_w> ... but the larger question is, is this something we are interested in doing
20:45:16 <anthony_w> ED: I don't know how easy they are to hand author, but if they are we should take a good look at them
20:45:40 <ed> s/easy they are to/the spiro curves are to/
20:47:40 <anthony_w> DS: We need to talk to Ralph Levien
20:47:50 <anthony_w> ... about using his method
20:48:12 <anthony_w> ... we need to find out if it can be a loyalty free algorithm that we can put in SVG
20:48:32 <ed> s/loyalty/royalty/
20:49:40 <anthony_w> ACTION: Doug to Contact Ralph Levien about his algorithm for rendering Cutmull-Rom curves
20:49:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2823 - Contact Ralph Levien about his algorithm for rendering Cutmull-Rom curves [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-07-20].
20:50:20 <anthony_w> ED: Do these curves have any patents on them?
20:50:39 <anthony_w> DS: I didn't find any problems with their licencing
20:50:49 <karl> karl has joined #svg
20:51:12 <ed> s/patents on them?/license issues related to them?/
20:52:10 <anthony_w> DS: The arc syntax is hard to use and it would be nice to have another arc syntax that did something else
20:52:16 <anthony_w> ... that works on degrees or angles
20:52:31 <anthony_w> ... if we're going to change path we should make it as user friendly as possible
20:52:40 <anthony_w> ... including nerbs
20:57:13 <anthony_w> Topic: SVG Front Page
20:57:30 <anthony_w> ED: The news updates there is HTML code?
20:57:36 <anthony_w> DS: Static HTML
20:57:42 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG
20:57:45 <anthony_w> ... nothing interesting about the code I put up there
20:58:00 <anthony_w> ... someone was complaining to it on SVG dev
20:58:09 <anthony_w> ... then it was linked to on slashdot
20:58:17 <anthony_w> ... so I put something static together
20:58:51 <anthony_w> ED: If you want twitter updates that is possible with client side script
20:59:00 <anthony_w> ... you can insert twitter updates into the page
20:59:22 <anthony_w> DS: With java script?
20:59:24 <anthony_w> ED: Yes
20:59:31 <anthony_w> DS: That is a bit of a hack
21:00:13 <anthony_w> ED: There are plenty of existing scripts that do that
21:00:36 <anthony_w> DS: Not very friendly to people without java script
21:00:41 <anthony_w> ... and accessibility people
21:00:57 <anthony_w> ... because it's client side
21:01:05 <anthony_w> ... it something to consider definitely
21:02:13 <anthony_w> ... I added links to most of our specs
21:02:36 <anthony_w> ... going to be ongoing discussions with comms team about how they want us to do this
21:02:55 <anthony_w> Topic: Blog and Twitter
21:04:11 <anthony_w> DS: I sent out information for the accounts
21:04:31 <anthony_w> ... I encourage you guys to say stuff that is of interest to the SVG community
21:04:57 <anthony_w> ... I posted an interview with Microsoft (Patrick) about their implementation
21:05:06 <anthony_w> ... I'm interested in talking with other implementers
21:05:33 <anthony_w> ... so TB would you like to be interviewed?
21:05:51 <anthony_w> TB: Sounds good to me
21:07:42 <anthony_w> DS: I will send you some questions ED
21:09:14 <anthony_w> ACTION: Doug to Send out first round of interviews to different implementers
21:09:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2824 - Send out first round of interviews to different implementers [on Doug Schepers - due 2010-07-20].
21:10:36 <anthony_w> DS: Any blog posts that you guys make, it might be a good idea to aggregate them
21:15:17 <anthony_w> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010JulSep/0028.html
21:15:30 <anthony_w> DS: If you open up a text editor and you look at that path
21:15:47 <shepazu>    <path style="fill:none;stroke:red;stroke-width:1px;" d="m 320,360 c 55.9322,38.13559 159.32203,-116.77966 200,-160 40.67796,-43.22034 160,40 160,40 l 0,120"/>
21:18:09 <anthony_w> TB: Inkscape keeps track of paths. If the curve is a smooth curve when you change the 3rd point it will change the point in the next curve
21:18:18 <anthony_w> ... if you change the curvature of one curve
21:18:25 <anthony_w> ... to keep it smooth you need to change it on the next one
21:18:45 <anthony_w> DS: To get the visual effect that we get from the "d" which is what is rendered in browsers
21:19:17 <anthony_w> ... we modify it using Sodipodi node types
21:20:11 <anthony_w> ... There is nothing that says what node type in that example
21:21:11 <shepazu> http://www.levien.com/spiro/
21:35:49 <ed> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochanek–Bartels_spline
21:39:17 <Zakim> -ed
21:39:18 <Zakim> -anthony_w
21:39:19 <Zakim> - +33.9.53.77.aaaa
21:39:29 <Zakim> -Shepazu
21:39:30 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()4:00PM has ended
21:39:32 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, anthony_w, Shepazu, +33.9.53.77.aaaa
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