14:52:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:52:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rif-irc
14:52:49 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:52:49 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:56 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:53:11 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 13-Jul-2010
14:53:35 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: RIF Telecon 13 Jul (ChrisW)
14:53:44 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:53:51 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:54:03 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:54:12 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:54:16 <ChrisW> agenda+ actions
14:54:43 <ChrisW> agenda+ XML data
14:54:50 <ChrisW> agenda+ RIF in RDF
14:54:56 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test
14:55:05 <ChrisW> agenda+ Primer
14:55:37 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:55:44 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:56:21 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:56:31 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
14:56:31 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
14:58:48 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:59:55 <dave> dave has joined #rif
15:00:04 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:00:47 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:00:56 <lmorgens> lmorgens has joined #rif
15:01:05 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:31 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:02:23 <Zakim> +??P9
15:03:10 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:03:20 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (49%), DaveReynolds (33%), ChrisW (28%)
15:03:40 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
15:04:34 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:05 <ChrisW> Minutes from last meeting: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jun/att-0006/08-rif-minutes.html
15:06:16 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept last meeting minutes
15:06:23 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:06:25 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept last meeting minutes
15:06:41 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:06:41 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike_Dean
15:07:01 <ChrisW> scribenick: Mike_Dean
15:07:02 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:07:02 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:07:08 <ChrisW> Scribe: Mike Dean
15:07:10 <mdean> scribenick: mdean
15:07:14 <ChrisW> next item
15:07:23 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 2
15:07:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:07 <mdean> Sandro:  SPARQL 1.1 adds entailment regimes
15:08:28 <mdean> ... specifies what it means to use SPARQL with OWL 2, RDFS, ..., RIF
15:08:35 <mdean> ... FPWG a month or so ago
15:08:55 <mdean> ... should be reviewed by at least one other RIF WG member
15:09:17 <mdean> ... need official RIF WG review
15:09:32 <mdean> ... only a page or 2, but fairly mathematical
15:09:38 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:09:38 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike_Dean
15:10:28 <ChrisW> action: Mike_Dean to review sparql entailment regimes on sparql
15:10:28 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike_Dean
15:10:32 <DaveReynolds> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-entailment/#id35811294
15:10:39 <ChrisW> action: MDean to review sparql entailment regimes on sparql
15:10:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1033 - Review sparql entailment regimes on sparql [on Mike Dean - due 2010-07-20].
15:10:41 <Zakim> + +1.631.833.aaaa
15:10:50 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aaaa is me
15:10:50 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:11:21 <mdean> ChrisW:  RDFRDB?
15:11:36 <mdean> Sandro:  Eric Prud'hommeaux sent email to various folks a couple weeks ago
15:11:51 <mdean> ... define a standard mapping from RDBMS to RDF graph with minimal configuration
15:12:07 <mdean> ... use RIF for other mappings - frames to frames
15:12:20 <mdean> ... provided RIF examples recently
15:12:37 <mdean> ... propose as RIF test cases - e.g. changing URLs
15:12:50 <mdean> ... also other proposals
15:13:26 <mdean> ... remains to be seen how well other RDF2RDB WG members will accept this - lots of folks would like to do everything in SQL
15:14:31 <ChrisW> next item
15:14:33 <mdean> ... want these transformations for other cases as well
15:14:41 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 1
15:14:41 <Zakim> agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:14:43 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:14:45 <Zakim> 3. actions [from ChrisW]
15:14:48 <ChrisW> next item
15:14:57 <mdean> Sandro:  eGov is thinking of starting at WG on government linked data 
15:15:05 <mdean> ... still working on proposed charter
15:15:23 <mdean> ... see eGov IG email list
15:15:58 <ChrisW> close action-1030
15:15:59 <trackbot> ACTION-1030 Setup poll for RIF WG meeting for Jun 17th or 18th, to talk about XML-Data and RIF-in-RDF drafts for publication on 22nd. closed
15:16:09 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:16:45 <mdean> close action-1029
15:16:45 <trackbot> ACTION-1029 Contact Bijan re: AC support closed
15:16:50 <mdean> close action-1028
15:16:50 <trackbot> ACTION-1028 Contact Jeff Pan re: AC support closed
15:16:53 <mdean> close action-1026
15:16:53 <trackbot> ACTION-1026 Talk to Elisa re: AC support closed
15:16:57 <mdean> close action-1025
15:16:57 <trackbot> ACTION-1025 Talk to Mark Proctor re: AC support closed
15:16:59 <mdean> close action-1024
15:17:00 <trackbot> ACTION-1024 Talk to OMG re: AC support closed
15:17:03 <mdean> close action-1023
15:17:03 <trackbot> ACTION-1023 Talk to Ed Barkmeyer re: AC support closed
15:17:06 <mdean> close action-1022
15:17:08 <trackbot> ACTION-1022 Talk to Guido re: AC support closed
15:17:09 <mdean> close action-1021
15:17:12 <trackbot> ACTION-1021 Talk to Ken for Mitre re: AC support closed
15:17:14 <mdean> close action-1019
15:17:16 <trackbot> ACTION-1019 Contact Mohamed Zergaoui re: AC suport closed
15:17:24 <mdean> close action-1018
15:17:24 <trackbot> ACTION-1018 Contact Michael Sintek re AC support closed
15:17:28 <mdean> close action-1017
15:17:28 <trackbot> ACTION-1017 Email Luis Polo re AC support closed
15:17:32 <mdean> close action-1016
15:17:32 <trackbot> ACTION-1016 Email Enrico Franconi re AC support closed
15:17:49 <mdean> close action-1015
15:17:49 <trackbot> ACTION-1015 Email Markus Krotzsch re AC support closed
15:17:53 <mdean> close action-1014
15:17:53 <trackbot> ACTION-1014 Contact Clevand Clinic to encourage AC support closed
15:18:08 <mdean> ChrisW:  do we have a record of how AC voted?
15:18:25 <mdean> Sandro:  no - about 15 support - don't remember exact number
15:18:31 <mdean> close action-1013
15:18:31 <trackbot> ACTION-1013 Fix the reference to Proposed Rec in the Media Type Registraiton, in Core closed
15:19:01 <ChrisW> christian?
15:19:19 <csma> yes
15:19:24 <csma> just found the number
15:19:35 <mdean> close action-968
15:19:36 <trackbot> ACTION-968 Document an rdf syntax for rif closed
15:20:10 <csma> zakim, what is the code?
15:20:10 <Zakim> the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), csma
15:20:22 <Zakim> + +33.9.53.62.aabb
15:20:34 <mdean> ChrisW:  open actions will be closed when WG ends
15:20:37 <csma> zakim, aabb is me
15:20:37 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:21:44 <mdean> csma:  sent agenda from private address, so it didn't go to public email list
15:21:45 <ChrisW> next item
15:22:26 <mdean> csma:  posted remaining issues
15:22:33 <mdean> ... needs to be finished
15:22:43 <mdean> ... RDF plain literals - get rid of string match
15:23:02 <mdean> ... Jos suggestions
15:23:06 <mdean> s/string/name/
15:23:30 <mdean> ... choice of syntax - @ vs attribute - not sure if allowed in IRIs
15:24:12 <mdean> ... dealing with case where elements/attributes not in namespace - cannot use rif:iri's - currently use strings, but not sure if this is allowed
15:24:32 <mdean> ... document must be completed with more and better examples, reviewed in more depth, etc.
15:24:41 <mdean> ... don't expect major changes in content
15:24:50 <mdean> ... Jos and Mike didn't find any showstoppers
15:25:33 <mdean> ... plan to work on this next week - proposed solutions for above issues - discuss at next meeting
15:26:17 <mdean> ... don't currently need help - will need later for review, implementation, etc.
15:26:40 <mdean> ... expect new version in 2 weeks
15:27:01 <mdean> ... would like Michael to look at it also
15:27:32 <mdean> MichaelKifer:  looked at version before Jos's comments, but didn't formally review
15:27:56 <mdean> csma:  incorporated Jos' and Mike's comments - haven't yet gotten feedback from Jos
15:28:04 <mdean> MichaelKifer:  will take a look
15:28:43 <mdean> Sandro:  use of special "no namespace" namespace rather than strings?
15:29:15 <mdean> csma:  most obvious solution would be to change rif:iri to allow local names
15:29:27 <mdean> ... but potentially opens up a can of worms
15:29:37 <mdean> ... don't like "no namespace" namespace
15:29:56 <mdean> ... only preferences - need to find most practical and least intrusive solution
15:30:24 <mdean> ... do other specs have this problem?
15:30:50 <mdean> Sandro:  RDF and OWL don't deal with XML - others model in full complexity (might or might not have namespace)
15:31:35 <ChrisW> next item
15:31:40 <mdean> csma:  would prefer ...
15:32:00 <mdean> Sandro:  2 open issues and omission from FPWG
15:32:38 <mdean> ... both about what modeling is done:  use type arcs, what to name various properties
15:32:53 <mdean> ... mapping between RIF syntactic structures and RDF graphs
15:32:59 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:32:59 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:33:12 <mdean> ... should these include rdf:type arcs, e.g. for RIF formula
15:33:23 <mdean> ... or could just list properties
15:33:30 <mdean> ... seems to be purely stylistic
15:33:47 <mdean> ... left out rdf:type arcs for now - recorded as open issue
15:33:57 <mdean> ChrisW:  define semantics so that this is implied
15:34:21 <mdean> Sandro:  could provide OWL ontology
15:34:23 <csma> (csma would prefer...) using ony rif:iri to address children and attributes, instead of having to support both rif:ri and xs:strings just because of the nonamespace case
15:34:29 <mdean> mdean:  or RDFS domain/range
15:35:25 <mdean> Sandro:  have to name some things differently than XML syntax, e.g. distinguish AND and OR
15:35:46 <mdean> ... made up names
15:36:12 <mdean> Sandro:  3rd thing:  importing or asserting RIF from RDF
15:36:53 <mdean> ... use case:  Facebook RDF data using vocabulary unlike most others, e.g. using strings rather than URIs
15:37:10 <mdean> ... can be mapped using RIF rules - but how does one find these?
15:37:21 <mdean> ... triples in RDF should specify RIF rules to use
15:37:29 <mdean> ... SPARQL also needs for entailment regime
15:37:41 <mdean> ... would add to SWC if not too late
15:38:00 <mdean> ChrisW:  what happens when you dereference URIs?
15:38:09 <DaveReynolds> For the record, as Sandro says, I prefer use of type arcs to enable consistent property naming and for consistency with other specs, e.g. OWL. Easy to say which are require and which optional.
15:38:21 <mdean> Sandro:  have so far only handled RIF import RDF case, not RDF import RIF
15:38:46 <DaveReynolds> +q
15:39:08 <mdean> Sandro:  how will RDF find rules
15:39:27 <mdean> ... extra parameter beyond owl:imports to specify profile
15:39:41 <mdean> ... possibly property that implies profile
15:40:00 <mdean> ChrisW:  not simple, seems very tricky
15:40:16 <mdean> DaveReynolds:  shouldn't do the same job
15:40:28 <mdean> ... need RDF imports
15:41:01 <mdean> Sandro:  not discussed at RDF NS workshop
15:41:13 <mdean> ... little awareness of RIF
15:41:31 <mdean> ... not in final list
15:41:46 <mdean> ... SPARQL has in entailment WDs
15:42:19 <mdean> ... part of graph
15:42:46 <mdean> ChrisW:  seems like it should be part of RDF
15:43:20 <mdean> Sandro:  semantics and namespace more important than which document it's in
15:43:24 <ChrisW> ack dave
15:43:28 <ChrisW> next item
15:43:42 <mdean> ChrisW:  Stella not here
15:43:56 <mdean> ... no active development
15:44:05 <csma> zakim, unmute me
15:44:05 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
15:45:25 <mdean> Christian:  no need to publish until updated
15:45:51 <mdean> Sandro:  can't run Google Analytics on W3C site, to tell who's reading documents and how they got there
15:46:11 <ChrisW> action: Chris to contact Stella about test cases status
15:46:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1034 - Contact Stella about test cases status [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-07-20].
15:46:14 <ChrisW> next item
15:46:31 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:46:31 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:46:48 <mdean> Leora:  late, but have draft on Wiki - bulk of it is there
15:47:07 <lmorgens> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Primer
15:47:32 <mdean> ... had hoped to have Harold and Chris review
15:48:01 <mdean> ChrisW:  meeting to follow up on Friday 11am Eastern
15:49:01 <mdean> lmorgens:  not sure if reached right level of detail and approachability
15:50:01 <mdean> ... e.g. section on reasoning - brief discussion of semantic issues, approximation
15:50:11 <mdean> ... good to get feedback on sections like this
15:50:51 <mdean> ChrisW:  concrete example from Facebook use case
15:51:01 <mdean> Sandro:  would like to make concrete
15:51:51 <mdean> ... properties associated with page, rather than object - and values are strings rather than URIs
15:51:58 <Harold> http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraph
15:52:11 <mdean> ... can see whether appropriate for Primer
15:52:43 <DaveReynolds> Sounds like a good use case for the primer given interest in OGF and emphasises RDF connection.
15:52:50 <mdean> Leora:  current examples stick to one theme, but another might be helpful given that RIF users will also have to deal with issues like this
15:54:39 <mdean> ChrisW:  will review this week for Friday's meeting
15:55:00 <mdean> Sandro:  what syntax does the primer use?
15:55:24 <mdean> Leora:  antecedent preceding consequent
15:55:36 <mdean> ... Chris wants to change slot value
15:56:07 <mdean> ... or use both, with hide/show button - simplified vs. presentation
15:56:15 <mdean> Sandro:  prefers button
15:56:41 <sandro> Here's one hide/show bit: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/multisyntax-support/example-1.html
15:56:50 <mdean> ChrisW:  should provide XML for each example
15:57:17 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:57:24 <mdean> Sandro:  totally in favor of having every widely used syntax
15:57:37 <csma> +1 to having multiple syntaxes in the primer
15:57:38 <mdean> ... very helpful in OWL primer
15:57:46 <mdean> ... but a lot of work
15:57:53 <mdean> ChrisW:  can be done at end
15:57:59 <mdean> ... once content is stable
15:58:29 <mdean> Harold:  would prefer Simplified RIF Syntax to RIF Simplified Syntax (another RSS)
15:58:34 <mdean> Leora:  Will do
15:58:45 <sandro> -1 to "Simplified RIF Syntax"
15:58:55 <mdean> Leora:  haven't checked parens - will do later today
15:59:28 <mdean> Harold:  eliminate extra spaces
15:59:50 <mdean> Sandro:  Simplified RIF Syntax implies something official
16:00:07 <mdean> ChrisW:  perhaps RIF Primer Syntax
16:00:07 <sandro> "RIF Primer Syntax" is fine.
16:00:14 <csma> why do you need a name?
16:00:35 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:00:35 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:00:38 <mdean> Sandro:  rest of world calls this tutorial not primer
16:00:48 <mdean> ... other W3C specs also use primer
16:01:06 <mdean> csma:  primer not necessarily tutorial 
16:01:17 <mdean> ... just examples, not necessarily complete
16:01:39 <mdean> ChrisW:  send naming suggestions by email
16:01:46 <mdean> ChrisW:  Any other Business?
16:01:47 <sandro> (I agree, CSMA -- I guess I don't know which this is.)
16:02:31 <mdean> ChrisW:  Meeting in 2 weeks, July 27?
16:02:47 <DaveReynolds> Date OK for me
16:04:14 <Zakim> +??P7
16:04:30 <mdean> ChrisW:  meeting in 2 weeks, same agenda as today
16:04:46 <mdean> ChrisW:  adjourned
16:04:49 <Zakim> -Harold
16:04:52 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:04:53 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:04:55 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:04:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, +33.9.53.62.aabb, csma
16:04:57 <mdean> Adrian joined late, in UK
16:04:58 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:04:58 <Zakim> -??P7
16:05:05 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has left #rif
16:05:15 <ChrisW> REgrets: StellaMitchell  JosDeBruijn
16:05:23 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:05:58 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:05:58 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, csma
16:08:49 <Zakim> -csma
16:08:51 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:08:52 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:08:52 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:08:53 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, +33.9.53.62.aabb, csma