IRC log of rif on 2010-07-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:52:43 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:52:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rif-irc
14:52:49 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:52:49 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:56 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:53:11 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 13-Jul-2010
14:53:35 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: RIF Telecon 13 Jul (ChrisW)
14:53:44 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:53:51 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:54:03 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:54:12 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:54:16 [ChrisW]
agenda+ actions
14:54:43 [ChrisW]
agenda+ XML data
14:54:50 [ChrisW]
agenda+ RIF in RDF
14:54:56 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Test
14:55:05 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Primer
14:55:37 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
14:55:44 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:56:21 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
14:56:31 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
14:56:31 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
14:58:48 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:59:55 [dave]
dave has joined #rif
15:00:04 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
15:00:47 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
15:00:56 [lmorgens]
lmorgens has joined #rif
15:01:05 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:31 [Zakim]
+Leora_Morgenstern
15:02:23 [Zakim]
+??P9
15:03:10 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is talking?
15:03:20 [Zakim]
ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (49%), DaveReynolds (33%), ChrisW (28%)
15:03:40 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
15:04:34 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:06:05 [ChrisW]
Minutes from last meeting: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Jun/att-0006/08-rif-minutes.html
15:06:16 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept last meeting minutes
15:06:23 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:06:25 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept last meeting minutes
15:06:41 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
15:06:41 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike_Dean
15:07:01 [ChrisW]
scribenick: Mike_Dean
15:07:02 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:07:02 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:07:08 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Mike Dean
15:07:10 [mdean]
scribenick: mdean
15:07:14 [ChrisW]
next item
15:07:23 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 2
15:07:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:07 [mdean]
Sandro: SPARQL 1.1 adds entailment regimes
15:08:28 [mdean]
... specifies what it means to use SPARQL with OWL 2, RDFS, ..., RIF
15:08:35 [mdean]
... FPWG a month or so ago
15:08:55 [mdean]
... should be reviewed by at least one other RIF WG member
15:09:17 [mdean]
... need official RIF WG review
15:09:32 [mdean]
... only a page or 2, but fairly mathematical
15:09:38 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
15:09:38 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike_Dean
15:10:28 [ChrisW]
action: Mike_Dean to review sparql entailment regimes on sparql
15:10:28 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Mike_Dean
15:10:32 [DaveReynolds]
http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-entailment/#id35811294
15:10:39 [ChrisW]
action: MDean to review sparql entailment regimes on sparql
15:10:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1033 - Review sparql entailment regimes on sparql [on Mike Dean - due 2010-07-20].
15:10:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.833.aaaa
15:10:50 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:10:50 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:11:21 [mdean]
ChrisW: RDFRDB?
15:11:36 [mdean]
Sandro: Eric Prud'hommeaux sent email to various folks a couple weeks ago
15:11:51 [mdean]
... define a standard mapping from RDBMS to RDF graph with minimal configuration
15:12:07 [mdean]
... use RIF for other mappings - frames to frames
15:12:20 [mdean]
... provided RIF examples recently
15:12:37 [mdean]
... propose as RIF test cases - e.g. changing URLs
15:12:50 [mdean]
... also other proposals
15:13:26 [mdean]
... remains to be seen how well other RDF2RDB WG members will accept this - lots of folks would like to do everything in SQL
15:14:31 [ChrisW]
next item
15:14:33 [mdean]
... want these transformations for other cases as well
15:14:41 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 1
15:14:41 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:14:43 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:14:45 [Zakim]
3. actions [from ChrisW]
15:14:48 [ChrisW]
next item
15:14:57 [mdean]
Sandro: eGov is thinking of starting at WG on government linked data
15:15:05 [mdean]
... still working on proposed charter
15:15:23 [mdean]
... see eGov IG email list
15:15:58 [ChrisW]
close action-1030
15:15:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-1030 Setup poll for RIF WG meeting for Jun 17th or 18th, to talk about XML-Data and RIF-in-RDF drafts for publication on 22nd. closed
15:16:09 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
15:16:45 [mdean]
close action-1029
15:16:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-1029 Contact Bijan re: AC support closed
15:16:50 [mdean]
close action-1028
15:16:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-1028 Contact Jeff Pan re: AC support closed
15:16:53 [mdean]
close action-1026
15:16:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-1026 Talk to Elisa re: AC support closed
15:16:57 [mdean]
close action-1025
15:16:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-1025 Talk to Mark Proctor re: AC support closed
15:16:59 [mdean]
close action-1024
15:17:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-1024 Talk to OMG re: AC support closed
15:17:03 [mdean]
close action-1023
15:17:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-1023 Talk to Ed Barkmeyer re: AC support closed
15:17:06 [mdean]
close action-1022
15:17:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-1022 Talk to Guido re: AC support closed
15:17:09 [mdean]
close action-1021
15:17:12 [trackbot]
ACTION-1021 Talk to Ken for Mitre re: AC support closed
15:17:14 [mdean]
close action-1019
15:17:16 [trackbot]
ACTION-1019 Contact Mohamed Zergaoui re: AC suport closed
15:17:24 [mdean]
close action-1018
15:17:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-1018 Contact Michael Sintek re AC support closed
15:17:28 [mdean]
close action-1017
15:17:28 [trackbot]
ACTION-1017 Email Luis Polo re AC support closed
15:17:32 [mdean]
close action-1016
15:17:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-1016 Email Enrico Franconi re AC support closed
15:17:49 [mdean]
close action-1015
15:17:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-1015 Email Markus Krotzsch re AC support closed
15:17:53 [mdean]
close action-1014
15:17:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-1014 Contact Clevand Clinic to encourage AC support closed
15:18:08 [mdean]
ChrisW: do we have a record of how AC voted?
15:18:25 [mdean]
Sandro: no - about 15 support - don't remember exact number
15:18:31 [mdean]
close action-1013
15:18:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-1013 Fix the reference to Proposed Rec in the Media Type Registraiton, in Core closed
15:19:01 [ChrisW]
christian?
15:19:19 [csma]
yes
15:19:24 [csma]
just found the number
15:19:35 [mdean]
close action-968
15:19:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-968 Document an rdf syntax for rif closed
15:20:10 [csma]
zakim, what is the code?
15:20:10 [Zakim]
the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), csma
15:20:22 [Zakim]
+ +33.9.53.62.aabb
15:20:34 [mdean]
ChrisW: open actions will be closed when WG ends
15:20:37 [csma]
zakim, aabb is me
15:20:37 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:21:44 [mdean]
csma: sent agenda from private address, so it didn't go to public email list
15:21:45 [ChrisW]
next item
15:22:26 [mdean]
csma: posted remaining issues
15:22:33 [mdean]
... needs to be finished
15:22:43 [mdean]
... RDF plain literals - get rid of string match
15:23:02 [mdean]
... Jos suggestions
15:23:06 [mdean]
s/string/name/
15:23:30 [mdean]
... choice of syntax - @ vs attribute - not sure if allowed in IRIs
15:24:12 [mdean]
... dealing with case where elements/attributes not in namespace - cannot use rif:iri's - currently use strings, but not sure if this is allowed
15:24:32 [mdean]
... document must be completed with more and better examples, reviewed in more depth, etc.
15:24:41 [mdean]
... don't expect major changes in content
15:24:50 [mdean]
... Jos and Mike didn't find any showstoppers
15:25:33 [mdean]
... plan to work on this next week - proposed solutions for above issues - discuss at next meeting
15:26:17 [mdean]
... don't currently need help - will need later for review, implementation, etc.
15:26:40 [mdean]
... expect new version in 2 weeks
15:27:01 [mdean]
... would like Michael to look at it also
15:27:32 [mdean]
MichaelKifer: looked at version before Jos's comments, but didn't formally review
15:27:56 [mdean]
csma: incorporated Jos' and Mike's comments - haven't yet gotten feedback from Jos
15:28:04 [mdean]
MichaelKifer: will take a look
15:28:43 [mdean]
Sandro: use of special "no namespace" namespace rather than strings?
15:29:15 [mdean]
csma: most obvious solution would be to change rif:iri to allow local names
15:29:27 [mdean]
... but potentially opens up a can of worms
15:29:37 [mdean]
... don't like "no namespace" namespace
15:29:56 [mdean]
... only preferences - need to find most practical and least intrusive solution
15:30:24 [mdean]
... do other specs have this problem?
15:30:50 [mdean]
Sandro: RDF and OWL don't deal with XML - others model in full complexity (might or might not have namespace)
15:31:35 [ChrisW]
next item
15:31:40 [mdean]
csma: would prefer ...
15:32:00 [mdean]
Sandro: 2 open issues and omission from FPWG
15:32:38 [mdean]
... both about what modeling is done: use type arcs, what to name various properties
15:32:53 [mdean]
... mapping between RIF syntactic structures and RDF graphs
15:32:59 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:32:59 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:33:12 [mdean]
... should these include rdf:type arcs, e.g. for RIF formula
15:33:23 [mdean]
... or could just list properties
15:33:30 [mdean]
... seems to be purely stylistic
15:33:47 [mdean]
... left out rdf:type arcs for now - recorded as open issue
15:33:57 [mdean]
ChrisW: define semantics so that this is implied
15:34:21 [mdean]
Sandro: could provide OWL ontology
15:34:23 [csma]
(csma would prefer...) using ony rif:iri to address children and attributes, instead of having to support both rif:ri and xs:strings just because of the nonamespace case
15:34:29 [mdean]
mdean: or RDFS domain/range
15:35:25 [mdean]
Sandro: have to name some things differently than XML syntax, e.g. distinguish AND and OR
15:35:46 [mdean]
... made up names
15:36:12 [mdean]
Sandro: 3rd thing: importing or asserting RIF from RDF
15:36:53 [mdean]
... use case: Facebook RDF data using vocabulary unlike most others, e.g. using strings rather than URIs
15:37:10 [mdean]
... can be mapped using RIF rules - but how does one find these?
15:37:21 [mdean]
... triples in RDF should specify RIF rules to use
15:37:29 [mdean]
... SPARQL also needs for entailment regime
15:37:41 [mdean]
... would add to SWC if not too late
15:38:00 [mdean]
ChrisW: what happens when you dereference URIs?
15:38:09 [DaveReynolds]
For the record, as Sandro says, I prefer use of type arcs to enable consistent property naming and for consistency with other specs, e.g. OWL. Easy to say which are require and which optional.
15:38:21 [mdean]
Sandro: have so far only handled RIF import RDF case, not RDF import RIF
15:38:46 [DaveReynolds]
+q
15:39:08 [mdean]
Sandro: how will RDF find rules
15:39:27 [mdean]
... extra parameter beyond owl:imports to specify profile
15:39:41 [mdean]
... possibly property that implies profile
15:40:00 [mdean]
ChrisW: not simple, seems very tricky
15:40:16 [mdean]
DaveReynolds: shouldn't do the same job
15:40:28 [mdean]
... need RDF imports
15:41:01 [mdean]
Sandro: not discussed at RDF NS workshop
15:41:13 [mdean]
... little awareness of RIF
15:41:31 [mdean]
... not in final list
15:41:46 [mdean]
... SPARQL has in entailment WDs
15:42:19 [mdean]
... part of graph
15:42:46 [mdean]
ChrisW: seems like it should be part of RDF
15:43:20 [mdean]
Sandro: semantics and namespace more important than which document it's in
15:43:24 [ChrisW]
ack dave
15:43:28 [ChrisW]
next item
15:43:42 [mdean]
ChrisW: Stella not here
15:43:56 [mdean]
... no active development
15:44:05 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
15:44:05 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
15:45:25 [mdean]
Christian: no need to publish until updated
15:45:51 [mdean]
Sandro: can't run Google Analytics on W3C site, to tell who's reading documents and how they got there
15:46:11 [ChrisW]
action: Chris to contact Stella about test cases status
15:46:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1034 - Contact Stella about test cases status [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-07-20].
15:46:14 [ChrisW]
next item
15:46:31 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:46:31 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:46:48 [mdean]
Leora: late, but have draft on Wiki - bulk of it is there
15:47:07 [lmorgens]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Primer
15:47:32 [mdean]
... had hoped to have Harold and Chris review
15:48:01 [mdean]
ChrisW: meeting to follow up on Friday 11am Eastern
15:49:01 [mdean]
lmorgens: not sure if reached right level of detail and approachability
15:50:01 [mdean]
... e.g. section on reasoning - brief discussion of semantic issues, approximation
15:50:11 [mdean]
... good to get feedback on sections like this
15:50:51 [mdean]
ChrisW: concrete example from Facebook use case
15:51:01 [mdean]
Sandro: would like to make concrete
15:51:51 [mdean]
... properties associated with page, rather than object - and values are strings rather than URIs
15:51:58 [Harold]
http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraph
15:52:11 [mdean]
... can see whether appropriate for Primer
15:52:43 [DaveReynolds]
Sounds like a good use case for the primer given interest in OGF and emphasises RDF connection.
15:52:50 [mdean]
Leora: current examples stick to one theme, but another might be helpful given that RIF users will also have to deal with issues like this
15:54:39 [mdean]
ChrisW: will review this week for Friday's meeting
15:55:00 [mdean]
Sandro: what syntax does the primer use?
15:55:24 [mdean]
Leora: antecedent preceding consequent
15:55:36 [mdean]
... Chris wants to change slot value
15:56:07 [mdean]
... or use both, with hide/show button - simplified vs. presentation
15:56:15 [mdean]
Sandro: prefers button
15:56:41 [sandro]
Here's one hide/show bit: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/multisyntax-support/example-1.html
15:56:50 [mdean]
ChrisW: should provide XML for each example
15:57:17 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:57:24 [mdean]
Sandro: totally in favor of having every widely used syntax
15:57:37 [csma]
+1 to having multiple syntaxes in the primer
15:57:38 [mdean]
... very helpful in OWL primer
15:57:46 [mdean]
... but a lot of work
15:57:53 [mdean]
ChrisW: can be done at end
15:57:59 [mdean]
... once content is stable
15:58:29 [mdean]
Harold: would prefer Simplified RIF Syntax to RIF Simplified Syntax (another RSS)
15:58:34 [mdean]
Leora: Will do
15:58:45 [sandro]
-1 to "Simplified RIF Syntax"
15:58:55 [mdean]
Leora: haven't checked parens - will do later today
15:59:28 [mdean]
Harold: eliminate extra spaces
15:59:50 [mdean]
Sandro: Simplified RIF Syntax implies something official
16:00:07 [mdean]
ChrisW: perhaps RIF Primer Syntax
16:00:07 [sandro]
"RIF Primer Syntax" is fine.
16:00:14 [csma]
why do you need a name?
16:00:35 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:00:35 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:00:38 [mdean]
Sandro: rest of world calls this tutorial not primer
16:00:48 [mdean]
... other W3C specs also use primer
16:01:06 [mdean]
csma: primer not necessarily tutorial
16:01:17 [mdean]
... just examples, not necessarily complete
16:01:39 [mdean]
ChrisW: send naming suggestions by email
16:01:46 [mdean]
ChrisW: Any other Business?
16:01:47 [sandro]
(I agree, CSMA -- I guess I don't know which this is.)
16:02:31 [mdean]
ChrisW: Meeting in 2 weeks, July 27?
16:02:47 [DaveReynolds]
Date OK for me
16:04:14 [Zakim]
+??P7
16:04:30 [mdean]
ChrisW: meeting in 2 weeks, same agenda as today
16:04:46 [mdean]
ChrisW: adjourned
16:04:49 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:04:52 [Zakim]
-Leora_Morgenstern
16:04:53 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
16:04:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:04:55 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, +33.9.53.62.aabb, csma
16:04:57 [mdean]
Adrian joined late, in UK
16:04:58 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:04:58 [Zakim]
-??P7
16:05:05 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif
16:05:15 [ChrisW]
REgrets: StellaMitchell JosDeBruijn
16:05:23 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/13-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:05:58 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
16:05:58 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, ChrisW, csma
16:08:49 [Zakim]
-csma
16:08:51 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:08:52 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:08:52 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:08:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sandro, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, DaveReynolds, Harold, +1.631.833.aaaa, MichaelKifer, +33.9.53.62.aabb, csma