IRC log of eo on 2010-07-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:45:05 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/09-eo-irc
11:45:27 [Zakim]
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11:45:30 [doylesaylor]
zakim, this will be eowg
11:45:30 [Zakim]
ok, doylesaylor; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 45 minutes
11:45:39 [Wayne]
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11:45:43 [doylesaylor]
rrsagent, make logs public
11:45:53 [doylesaylor]
Scribe: Doyle
11:46:05 [doylesaylor]
ScribeNick: doylesaylor
11:46:16 [doylesaylor]
Meeting: EOWG
11:46:34 [doylesaylor]
Chair: Shawn
11:49:53 [doylesaylor]
Top o the Morning Wayne! :-)
11:50:19 [Wayne]
And good morning to you.
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12:26:52 [sinarmaya]
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12:27:21 [IanPouncey]
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12:27:30 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:27:36 [Zakim]
+Shawn
12:28:06 [Zakim]
+doyle
12:28:34 [Zakim]
+ +44.207.131.aaaa
12:28:44 [Zakim]
+ +677610aabb
12:28:49 [IanPouncey]
Zakim, aaaa is Ian
12:28:49 [Zakim]
+Ian; got it
12:28:57 [shadi]
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12:28:58 [IanPouncey]
Hello all
12:29:17 [sinarmaya]
Hi all :-)
12:29:38 [shadi]
zakim, call shadi-618
12:29:38 [Zakim]
I am sorry, shadi; I do not know a number for shadi-618
12:29:40 [shadi]
zakim, call shadi-617
12:29:40 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; the call is being made
12:29:42 [Zakim]
+Shadi
12:30:17 [sinarmaya]
zakim mute me
12:30:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.305.aacc
12:30:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.562.256.aadd
12:30:49 [shadi]
zakim, mute me
12:30:49 [Zakim]
Shadi should now be muted
12:31:02 [sinarmaya]
zakim, mute me
12:31:02 [Zakim]
sorry, sinarmaya, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
12:31:04 [Sharron]
zakim, aacc is Sharron
12:31:04 [Zakim]
+Sharron; got it
12:31:20 [shawn]
zakim, aadd is Wayne
12:31:20 [Zakim]
+Wayne; got it
12:31:24 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
12:31:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shawn, doyle, Ian, +677610aabb (muted), Shadi (muted), Sharron, Wayne
12:31:25 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Let's get started.
12:31:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see shadi, IanPouncey, sinarmaya, Sharron, Wayne, Zakim, RRSAgent, doylesaylor, shawn
12:32:04 [shawn]
zakim, aadd is Emmanuelle
12:32:04 [Zakim]
sorry, shawn, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
12:32:11 [shawn]
zakim, aabb is Emmanuelle
12:32:11 [Zakim]
+Emmanuelle; got it
12:32:15 [shawn]
zakim, who is here?
12:32:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shawn, doyle, Ian, Emmanuelle (muted), Shadi (muted), Sharron, Wayne
12:32:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see shadi, IanPouncey, sinarmaya, Sharron, Wayne, Zakim, RRSAgent, doylesaylor, shawn
12:32:39 [doylesaylor]
Topic: How People with Disabilities Use the Web: Disabilities and Barriers page
12:32:47 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities
12:33:09 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#abilities
12:33:17 [shadi]
ack me
12:33:21 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: let's look at the disabilities and barriers page. From the agenda, the first link the abilities and diversities section. Shadi?
12:34:09 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Specifically there was a request to re-add the situational bullets. The first lead in paragraph was cleaned up, and the last paragraph. How does this work for people?
12:34:25 [doylesaylor]
Ian: first paragraph of the page or the abilities section?
12:34:35 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: the abilities section.
12:35:11 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: The direction with this Shadi is really good. Very well organized. I sent in an email this morning.
12:35:33 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: What kind of things Sharron?
12:37:05 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: we have long lists which I tried to emphasize the people. I don't think we need the however, I did some edits but this was just perfect and my suggestions were for making a smoother reading. Just suggesting. I think fine the way it is. Easier to read with all the lists of things we have in there. There are all these different disabilities and the way people may experience them.
12:37:21 [shawn]
q+ to say maybe "they may not be able to afford accessibility solutions." -> "they may not be able to afford _assistive technologies_."
12:37:40 [Zakim]
+Liam_McGee
12:37:48 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: the first is the however, I'd like people's reaction to the However? The first paragraph we talk about groups of people. I wanted to emphasize that people are different.
12:38:37 [shawn]
+1 to Sharron that this is really a great direction!!!
12:39:04 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: about however, I thought we already said that. That we said that everyone saying a multiple situation, many reasons why people have them. We have already said. To re-emphasize is fine. Given what has gone before the conclusion is people are unique. It is not needed to say however.
12:39:20 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I will remove if there are no objections.
12:39:32 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I strongly support Sharron.
12:39:55 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: It is not the only people older people who would not see themselves as disabled.
12:40:22 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: acquire they might think they are not disabled.
12:40:43 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: even people who are born with a disabilty some don't think of themselves as disabled.
12:40:56 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: the direction is perfect really good.
12:41:01 [shadi]
action: shadi - remove "however"
12:41:27 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: maybe some people may not consider themselves as having disabilties. Even though they may be experiencing such functional limitations.
12:41:39 [shawn]
Some may not consider themselves to have disabilities even if they do experience such functional limitations.
12:41:57 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I think that is important. A person with 20 60 vision is really a problem even corrected.
12:42:21 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: you pulled together very well. You got it.
12:42:30 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: it's beautiful.
12:43:11 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: what about the blurb on situational limitations? Anything there?
12:43:13 [shawn]
ack me
12:43:13 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to say maybe "they may not be able to afford accessibility solutions." -> "they may not be able to afford _assistive technologies_."
12:43:41 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: one little thing at the end. What was your thinking about not being able to afford technology solutions.
12:44:05 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I was thinking of bandwidths you could not afford that is not an assistive technology.
12:44:30 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I think it needs to be more clear. Like certain technologies they may not afford certain technologies. Does that work.
12:44:35 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider "or may not be able to afford some technologies"
12:44:40 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: yes let me type up.
12:44:55 [doylesaylor]
Ian: talking about being unaffordable, should we talk about availability?
12:45:22 [doylesaylor]
shadi: I didn't want to repeat too much on this page. That which is on the tools page.
12:45:31 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: mention one thing and link to the other page?
12:45:38 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Hmmmmmmmm
12:45:57 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider linking to tools and preferences page
12:46:14 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I really like the sentence as is. If you don't like technology solutions, say access technology or appropriate technologies.
12:46:29 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I will take a pass at that. Sharpening a little more.
12:47:11 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: You want this section short?
12:47:23 [shawn]
q+ to say: minor editorial: capitalize after colon
12:47:26 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I agree I want the seciton shorter, but I don't know what to cut down here.
12:47:35 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I think it is almost as good as you can get.
12:47:37 [shawn]
ack me
12:47:37 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to say: minor editorial: capitalize after colon
12:47:43 [sylvie]
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12:47:50 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: capitalize the letter after the colon.
12:47:59 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Ok.
12:48:15 [shadi]
action: shadi - capitalize letter after the colon
12:48:19 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: the last paragraph?
12:48:48 [shawn]
q+ to say: "It is therefore more important to consider" -> "It is therefore important to consider"
12:49:01 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Any notes on this. Specifically the very last four words, according to medical classifications. Wayne was for changing. What do people think of that. Abilities and diversities.
12:49:13 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: the bullets afterward.
12:49:27 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: you re-arranged it so well I see what you meant.
12:49:45 [Zakim]
-Emmanuelle
12:49:57 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: I think this is abosolutely correct. You have given specifics, and then consider how diverse disaiblities are.
12:50:10 [Liam]
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12:50:17 [sylvie]
Hello, trying to connect is the French bridge working, I cannot enter the eo code
12:50:24 [Liam]
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12:50:27 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: This is really excellent. I understand what you were trying to get at. Really good.
12:50:41 [shawn]
q+ to say: "benefit everyone, with or without disabilities" -> "benefit everyone, people with and without disabilities" or "benefit everyone, including people without disabilities"
12:51:14 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: this is important to understand. We are not just considering the far edge of the bell curve. Pay attention. A lot of people are involved.
12:51:35 [shawn]
ack me
12:51:35 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to say: "It is therefore more important to consider" -> "It is therefore important to consider" and to say: "benefit everyone, with or without disabilities" ->
12:51:38 [Zakim]
... "benefit everyone, people with and without disabilities" or "benefit everyone, including people without disabilities"
12:51:43 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: you have editorial comments there?
12:52:00 [Liam]
q+ to ask query know sign language vs speak sign language
12:52:01 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: you can take or leave them. Just note for your consideration.
12:52:10 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider shawn's editorial suggestions in irc
12:52:19 [shawn]
ack l
12:52:19 [Zakim]
Liam, you wanted to ask query know sign language vs speak sign language
12:52:48 [doylesaylor]
shawn: anything else on this section? congratulations you nailed it Shadi!
12:53:28 [doylesaylor]
shawn: We needed to get right and you did. Anything else on this? Shadi will make those few changes we'll plan to make another pass, to make sure you are ok with that.
12:53:55 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: anything else on this section? Gone.
12:54:20 [doylesaylor]
Liam: query on the next section. Not all people know sign language. Speak sign language? British style?
12:54:43 [Zakim]
+ +33.7.aaee
12:54:43 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I don't know what is correct. Speak sign language?
12:55:07 [shadi]
zakim, aaee is sylvie
12:55:07 [Zakim]
+sylvie; got it
12:55:09 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Know is more encompassing. A lot of people can read English but not speak it. Know is broader.
12:56:09 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: any other comments on the auditory seciton. Include both deafness and hard of hearing.
12:56:27 [doylesaylor]
Sylvie: I thought this was a very document now.
12:57:16 [doylesaylor]
shadi: Previously situation from 2003 iteration. In my research I see there is a change. Something to note.
12:57:32 [doylesaylor]
shawn: put the acronym because so many people would recognize the acronym?
12:57:37 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: hmmm.
12:57:42 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider adding "adhd" acronym
12:57:43 [doylesaylor]
Liam: what acronym.
12:57:48 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: ADHD.
12:57:56 [shawn]
q+ to point out in the contents list, some have "disabilities"
12:58:19 [shawn]
q+ to also say that I like it without
12:58:22 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: new section is mental health disabilties. Slightly different approach to the other sections. Reactions first then I'll comment.
12:58:24 [Liam]
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12:58:41 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#mhealth
12:59:23 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: comments?
12:59:36 [shawn]
q+ to say [new point] maybe add one sentence under <h2>Cognitive</h2> that lists the subsections below.
13:00:34 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: one issue with this seciton is that mental health disabilites can have all sorts of impacts on the abilties. I did not want to lis the entire thing here. I listed some of the more common ones. Mental health disabilties can cause a whole variety of them. Section works well?
13:01:27 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I can understand how some of the mental health listed end up with barriers below it is quite a jump. Why does paranoia means that problem. Quite right list as the barriers but not a strong link to the list above.
13:01:43 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: YOu think it needs more text above. Different approach?
13:02:38 [doylesaylor]
Liam: the hardest for me to get my head around. I have limited experience with mental health disorders. Something we have been criticized about before. A good opportunity to make explicit.
13:02:51 [Zakim]
-Shadi
13:03:16 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:03:27 [shadi]
zakim, ipcaller is me
13:03:27 [Zakim]
+shadi; got it
13:03:49 [doylesaylor]
Ian: A very complex subject to get the tone and level right. I did a piece and it took four revisions.
13:04:26 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: for the purposes of this documentation. You give the explanation and the example and this is not clear, hard to follow the jump.
13:04:55 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I can make the jump to learning disabilties but not schizophrenia. My lack of knowledge. A general thing.
13:05:20 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: the first paragraph. the tie in to explain the barriers. More clear there to stand out?
13:05:46 [shawn]
maybe: "This may cause difficulty focusing on information, processing information, or understanding it." -> "These conditions may cause difficulty focusing on information, processing information, or understanding it."
13:05:52 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I am not clear what we are trying to get to. We have information about depression, schizophrenia in the usability of the web environment.
13:06:37 [Liam]
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13:06:55 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: there is not a lot of information I have been able to find. I am not sure if the WCAG has the same sort of categorization. I have not been able to find a lot of information about success criterion. I am basically using what other listed disabilities may use.
13:07:49 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I think though in this area. Two things, the issue of accessibility and accommodation. They don't want long sentences. Are we suggest we give up literary skill to make an accommodation. Or a technology for this group of people?
13:07:52 [hbj]
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13:08:15 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: the complex text structures affects people with learning disabilties.
13:08:17 [shawn]
[proposal for discussion: move the "Examples of Barriers" and maybe "Further Reading" up to the higher level, under Cognitive ?]
13:08:23 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: is this about saying don
13:09:08 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: you have to make a judgment about what is this for? Where it is not literature. Just consideration, do you need this complex and compound.
13:10:03 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I don't think that distinction is made. This makes a hard sell at the University. In the academic senate there is no way we are going to do that. These two paragraphs would kill it in the univesity.
13:11:02 [doylesaylor]
Liam: don't forget reading levels vary. Triple AA is applied where you need to apply to wide a range as possible. Absolutely you can have literature to be triple A they are exclusive.
13:11:40 [doylesaylor]
Ian: this is not a directive to do something, but an example of a barrier. Complex languages are used is a barrier to some people. But we are not saying to not use complex language.
13:12:44 [doylesaylor]
Liam: That is the intent of the checkpoiint. To bring back to mental health more honest to say, don't forget that people have these conditions, shorter and easier to read conditions, in a general point but weak point to make in this context.
13:12:55 [shawn]
[proposal for discussion: move the "Examples of Barriers" and maybe "Further Reading" up to the higher level, under Cognitive ?]
13:13:43 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: the question Shadi is how much similarity in each barriers in subsections in cognitive, if a lot of overlap, more up to a higher level. Talk about specfics, a higher level cognitive that talks about barriers, then the sub secitons gives a litttle more specfics.
13:14:08 [Liam]
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13:14:10 [doylesaylor]
Liam: my concern is that WCAG could provide working technigues with some disorders and people will saying you don't.
13:14:51 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: the main point of this is the main points of disabilities and barriers. Secondarily how WCAG can help with this, but primary is be aware of disability and barrier.
13:15:26 [Zakim]
+Helle_Bjarno
13:16:39 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: is there is a lot of difference of these conditions. When we talk about memory impairments. Mental health disabilties stop there. Just have a blurb there to acknowledge what Ian is saying. We don't have the information.
13:16:46 [doylesaylor]
Liam: an excellent suggestion.
13:16:50 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I agree.
13:17:55 [doylesaylor]
Ian: from an editorial basis. We have words that are different to understand. Page layouts is difficult to use. That is difficult to use period. Inconsistent functionality is hard. Inconsistency is a big barrier.
13:18:32 [doylesaylor]
shadi: I wouldn't generalize to any sort of cognitive disability. I wonder if we want to go section by section? Ian maybe send and email.
13:18:35 [doylesaylor]
Ian: Yes.
13:18:40 [IanPouncey]
'Complex navigation mechanisms and page layouts that are difficult to understand and use' is a tautology - page layouts that are difficult to understand _are_ difficult to understand for _everyone_.
13:19:18 [doylesaylor]
shadi: I do agree Ian. I appreciate someone to really look at them. Does anybody disagree with them. To remove disabilities and barriers section?
13:19:30 [Liam]
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13:19:36 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: Other sections you might want to do as well because this will stand out?
13:20:10 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: the ties are better in other section. Neurological disabilites can impact anything. I didn't know how to deal with that.
13:20:13 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#neurological
13:20:35 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: consider a possibility to have a literature review? On barriers?
13:20:49 [doylesaylor]
Liam: volunteers?
13:21:01 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: let me give it try to see what I can find?
13:21:22 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: if we publish a literatuve review it needs to be comprehensive.
13:22:01 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: I don't see we need to do a full literature review.
13:22:33 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: find something the five most encountered. Disability resource center have to cope with frequently.
13:23:44 [Liam]
s/Absolutely you can have literature to be triple A they are exclusive./ You can have literature to AAA you just have to add material to support its understanding
13:24:02 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Wayne this depends upon what you understand of literature review. I have started with the guidelines. I have done a lot of desktop research. Some organization for those types of disabilities. You would not believe how different between countries. I have not been doing a scientific search, anyone with experiences in the field who can suggest other things I would appreciate.
13:24:22 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I'll do that, Another thing to get from that, is exactly what do people encounter.
13:25:34 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Yes I'd love this information. Not just Wayne for the entire group. I hope we can close the page for now. A review period you can look at that. But any information I can get now would be really appreciated. Back to neurological disabilities section.
13:25:46 [shawn]
action: Shawn contact person at http://www.landmark.edu/ and Coleman Institute at University of Colorado
13:26:44 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: thoughts or comments?
13:27:17 [doylesaylor]
Ian: understanding the first sentence, the hearing seeing, and understanding abilities of people?
13:27:26 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: use cognitive?
13:27:30 [doylesaylor]
Ian: yes.
13:27:45 [doylesaylor]
shadi: if we use cognitive do at the beginning?
13:28:55 [shawn]
maybe: This can impact how well individuals hear, move, see, speak, and understand information.
13:28:57 [doylesaylor]
Liam: just to note, you speaking understanding, simplify, I am guessing you used the plain anglo saxon hearing using understanding, then the more complex in the next section to re-ordering hearing seeing using, understanding.
13:29:13 [shawn]
maybe: This can impact how individuals hear, move, see, speak, and understand information.
13:29:27 [Liam]
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13:29:32 [shadi]
action: shadi - use " This can impact how well individuals hear, move, see, speak, and understand information."
13:29:32 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: turn around this can around this can impact hear speak understand. How individuals can hear speak and understand? Work for you?
13:29:41 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: works for me yes. Ok.
13:30:12 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: what was your multiple strategies. What was the impetus for the examples?
13:31:57 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I want to say neurological disabilities or disorders can affect can affect it might impact any of those in such a way that they might use things differents. Might use a similar approach and combine different strategies. A neurological disorder may cause a specific disabilty or multiple and diverse methods of using the web.
13:32:28 [doylesaylor]
Liam: it seems to me on first reading neurological is an underlying causitive category for many catergories?
13:32:41 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I support splitting out.
13:33:51 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: quadroplegic is a neurological but that is one type there are all kinds of neurological disorders. If we don't have a section on these disorders we might leave out a whole group of people. That is the difficulty with the section here.
13:34:30 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I think in general the way you have done is fine. It can involve many issues different approaches. Multiple doesn't sing but I can't see anything wrong with that.
13:34:44 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I will maybe say a little bit more about causes.
13:35:17 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider providing some more background on "In many cases people with neurological disabilities may combine multiple strategies for their particular needs"
13:35:37 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Neurological categories overlap a lot of categories. To be clear on why it is different.
13:35:54 [doylesaylor]
Doyle: strokes are good example of being very diverse.
13:35:59 [Liam]
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13:36:25 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: can you restate the keyboard example?
13:36:37 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: can you clarify?
13:37:12 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I will take another pass at that, it goes from typing, to stroke. All sorts of different being a very broad area.
13:37:39 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: do you want to list some specifics or not. A couple of things. Multiple sclerosis.
13:37:55 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider listing a couple of examples of neurological disabilities
13:37:58 [doylesaylor]
Liam: specific in the mental health category, from RSMI to MS.
13:38:20 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: How does that help Shadi?
13:38:51 [doylesaylor]
Liam: the reason to not include examples because it is really diverse with the mental health side where we don't have a lot of good examples.
13:39:08 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: mentioning stroke for example makes it more tangible for people.
13:39:44 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I was looking for autism and dyslexia. People with dyslexia, many people with learning disabilties.
13:40:05 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I put under perceptual disabilites. I don't mention autism anywhere.
13:41:10 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Maybe using learning disabilites makes it more confusing for U.S. audiences thought clear enough for UK.
13:41:25 [doylesaylor]
shadi: not limited to UK.
13:41:41 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: translate into German or other languages.
13:41:49 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: miss understood in the U.S.
13:41:55 [doylesaylor]
shawn: sometimes called.
13:42:11 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: Our learning disability center would find offensive.
13:42:20 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: in some regions it is called.
13:42:24 [doylesaylor]
Liam: yes
13:42:32 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: yes.
13:42:32 [shawn]
(sometimes called "learning disabilities", -> (in some regions called "learning disabilities",
13:42:35 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider "in some regions it is called ..."
13:43:15 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Academically bright.
13:43:50 [doylesaylor]
shadi: the precise issue to parse by funcaitonal issues you have a totally different view of things. Mental issues and other categories.
13:44:09 [Liam]
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13:44:10 [doylesaylor]
Liam: SLD is another jargon in the UK. Severe Learning Disability.
13:44:38 [doylesaylor]
Liam: it's beaurocratic if you have SLD you get school support.
13:45:06 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I guess it is ok to have no examples because it is such a wide context.
13:45:40 [doylesaylor]
Liam: Is it ok to list further reading. Because there are stacks of stuff but link to how general not specfici.
13:46:06 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: further reading does point to other parts of this. Might be an issue with the heading name.
13:46:37 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: that wraps of the neurological discussion. Go back through the mental health disabilities.
13:46:49 [shawn]
zakim, mute me
13:46:49 [Zakim]
Shawn should now be muted
13:46:57 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: didn't you say we could comment to you on the email? to see how it fits together.
13:47:44 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I will look at the input as well. To note part of Liams point to make sure to link back to WCAG. One thing to list barriers with mental health but to have a link back. I appreciate any comment.
13:47:55 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: if we can't link back to WCAG we would not list?
13:48:01 [doylesaylor]
shadi: I am not saying that.
13:48:10 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: best if we could?
13:48:12 [shawn]
zakim, unmute me
13:48:12 [Zakim]
Shawn should no longer be muted
13:48:19 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: best if you can link.
13:49:34 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: please do contact whoever you know to help with the background in the areas. To move on to memory disorder, seizures disorders. Any other comments?
13:49:44 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: missing autism.
13:50:18 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: does a person have aspergers but not disabilites impact the web. The aspects related to autism are covered in other categories.
13:50:24 [doylesaylor]
Sharron: I agree with that.
13:50:59 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I want to deal with the miss understanding that all people with autism are mentally retarded. I want to separate those aspects.
13:51:07 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/disabilities#speech
13:51:22 [Liam]
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13:51:23 [doylesaylor]
shadi: the last link on the agenda item. We are on speech disabilities otherwise.
13:51:26 [shawn]
s/autism are mentally retarded./autism are "mentally retarded"./
13:52:17 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Wayne this section the link back to WCAG is not optimal. I have an action item to look at UI level. There is more need than what the guidelines are providing currently.
13:52:34 [shadi]
s/UI level/UAAG
13:52:44 [shawn]
minor editorial: Speech disabilities can include difficulty producing -> Speech disabilities include difficulty producing
13:53:15 [shadi]
recognizable others -> recognizable by others
13:54:15 [doylesaylor]
Ian: might be a place where is there an excuse for not making a site is inaccessible but they provide a phone number?
13:54:41 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: examples of barriers a web site that relies as a telephone to accessing something that is not accessible?
13:54:46 [doylesaylor]
Ian: yes.
13:54:56 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: how it is different from the last sentence?
13:55:27 [doylesaylor]
Ian: For someone who use a specific hotline. A telephone number is why a web site does not need to be made accessible.
13:55:35 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: an example of barriers?
13:55:38 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: yes.
13:55:40 [shawn]
countering: "we didn't make this part accessible, but we have a telephone number for people to call instead"
13:55:59 [shawn]
maybe add to Examples of Barriers section
13:56:09 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider adding "phone number as an accessibility solution" as an example barrier in speech disabilities
13:56:28 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: any other comments or thoughts?
13:57:50 [Liam]
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13:57:57 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: On any other parts of this page. The remaining parts are vision issues. This page is now complete. There are some edits to go. Now is to look at in more detail. Obviously cognitive section is the most difficult. but I appreciate looking at all the sections. More eyes to find issues..
13:58:02 [sylvie]
q+
13:58:10 [shawn]
ack syl
13:58:14 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I would appreciate any kind of feedback.
13:59:17 [doylesaylor]
Sylvie: I have a general question. A barrier sometimes you write nouns at the beginning, and sometimes you have real sentences. I wonder if ok to have sometimes pieces of sentences and then sometimes real sentences. Citing other documents.
14:00:06 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I don't know. What do people think? I was hoping partial sentences that they are so clear in context is fine. Rather than forcing the same sentence structure on every single bullet.
14:00:17 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I think as long as it is clear.
14:00:26 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Sylvie what is unclear.
14:01:05 [doylesaylor]
Sylvie: I wondered why you used full sentences or partial. It was not unclear. In the further reading section.
14:01:16 [doylesaylor]
shadi: I thought you meant examples of barriers?
14:01:34 [doylesaylor]
Sylvie: When reading through the whole document it was not always consistent.
14:02:40 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I see what you mean. Under further readings there is a bullet further readings, based on the WCAG guideline text. Sometimes shortened, but mostly what is in the WCAG text. I will have another look at that. That is also link from the fourth page still to be developed. Other comments or quesitons?
14:03:02 [Wayne]
From the definition of Assistive Technology in WCAG 2.0. screen magnifiers, and other visual reading assistants, which are used by people with visual, perceptual and physical print disabilities to change text font, size, spacing, color, synchronization with speech, etc. in order to improve the visual readability of rendered text and images
14:04:36 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider updating the very first intro paragraph
14:04:39 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: IN assistive technologies in WCAG 2 some of the barriers are overcome is the font family, references spacing, and a need for synchronized reading and voice. We need a font family area. Reference WCAG 2 and also spacing. Inappropriate is a noted barrier supported in research. Many unreadable pages that just increasing size does not over come that.
14:04:53 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: that overlaps cognitive.
14:05:20 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: Letter spacing is proven to improving reading speed.
14:05:41 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: could you look through the document to cover that area?
14:05:55 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider line spacing and fonts as barrier in perceptual disabilities
14:06:09 [shawn]
action: wayne & shadi look at including font face, spacing, etc. in low vision &/or cognitive &/or perceptual...
14:06:33 [shawn]
ack me
14:06:33 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to point out in the contents list, some have "disabilities" and to also say that I like it without and to say [new point] maybe add one sentence under
14:06:36 [Zakim]
... <h2>Cognitive</h2> that lists the subsections below.
14:06:40 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: good input. Last round. Shawn?
14:06:42 [Liam]
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14:07:59 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: two points, under the H2 cognitive I wanted to suggest to put one sentence this section covers blah blah and list the sub categories. One sentence under there. So people don't straight and don't focus cognitive and jumped to just one. Or the specifics this section provides a variety of blah blah period.
14:08:09 [doylesaylor]
Liam: better typography?
14:08:30 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider adding a list (inline) at the beginning of the cognitive section that links to the sub-sections
14:08:46 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: more than typography. We have started into the design. We don't have resources for that yet.
14:08:57 [shadi]
action: shadi - consider also for other sections with sub-sections
14:09:02 [doylesaylor]
Liam: you need to address some other things also if you address that.
14:10:08 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: next thing if you look at the contents list at the top. Except for the sub categories none of them say disabilities. Is there a way to do under the subsection to do that as well. It reads speech, et al, but in sub it says disabilities.
14:10:34 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: It might hang there, you say cognitive, then mental health and memory, Ok.
14:10:51 [doylesaylor]
Liam: I am for getting rid of disabilites, but you end up with a bunch of adjectives.
14:11:17 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I wonder if that gets into the understandability of the page if we avoid nouns?
14:11:43 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: I understand you, but I want to link to the physical disabilties here.
14:11:53 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: you can still link. I would really like.
14:12:00 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: objections?
14:12:31 [shawn]
brainstorming title "Disabilities and Barriers" -> Varying Abilities and Barriers to Web Use ? Barriers to Web Use by People with Varying Abilities ? . . .
14:12:52 [doylesaylor]
Liam: page one disabilities and barriers, and then there is no heading auditory barriers, I don't see a necessary the key words in the headings being what people use to find.
14:14:00 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: counterpoint. One thing we discussed earlier the title. In brainstorming mode. Everybody like the abilities and diversities and think about that, and think about what we are saying and get across. Given that perspective and approach do we still want to call this page disabilities and barriers.
14:14:00 [Liam]
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14:14:36 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: thinking we might not want to go too far with that. We don't want to use disabilies is finding the right balance here. I don't want to go too far.
14:14:46 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: In case we found something that clicked.
14:15:02 [doylesaylor]
Liam: disabling barriers instead of...
14:15:03 [shawn]
Barriers that Disable. Disabling Barriers.
14:15:29 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: think a little about another type a general undpating of titles and headings.
14:15:35 [shawn]
[/me suggests action: reconsider the very first intro paragraph to be less "people with that kind of disability" and more like the new, wonderful Abilities and Diversity section]
14:16:14 [doylesaylor]
Wayne: I think disabilities really belongs here. We don't we want to mess up the section with half adjectives and nouns. That messes up the page structure.
14:16:57 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: one is called a disability, one is called an impairment. There is no standard for terms. Dropping it might help with that aspect.
14:17:05 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: I agree with that one.
14:17:34 [shawn]
mental health disorders (NOT disabilities)
14:17:40 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: in the text you say disorders. Fits better and is better in the terminology I am used to.
14:17:55 [doylesaylor]
Liam: It is a concern with the term disability or the title too long?
14:19:27 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: no some people who have these conditions may not consider themselves to have a disability. I could have some perceive like many people do, but I don't consider myself to have a disability. And there is one thing. Even having it in the text it feels like you are getting into specific things for sentences to flow. For the headings is more of the categorization. Understand?
14:20:14 [shawn]
doyle: many in deaf and autism dont consider themselves to have disabilities
14:20:51 [doylesaylor]
Liam: these can be medical conditions if that it is what is needed for context for people to understand what is disability.
14:21:19 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: that is the fundamental problem with this document to tell people not to label but then we categorize.
14:21:35 [doylesaylor]
Wayne; Yes it a problem but is necessary to know.
14:21:41 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: where does that leave us.
14:21:52 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: editor discretion.
14:22:21 [Liam]
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14:22:53 [doylesaylor]
Liam: swap disability with ability. Range of diversity instead of... Biggest problem with the title is that barriers and disabilities are different. The barrier is the disability not the underlying medical condition. The disability is the barrier.
14:23:05 [doylesaylor]
Ian: barrier is the environment?
14:23:26 [shawn]
consider in contents adding to categories thw word: "Abilities" eg " Auditory Abilities" etc
14:23:33 [doylesaylor]
Liam: the thing is the barrier not the integral person. Dividing the two things apart in the heading is it.
14:23:45 [shawn]
Disabilites from Barriers
14:23:48 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: disabilities from barriers.
14:23:58 [doylesaylor]
Liam: we don't have good language for that.
14:24:26 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: in the first sentence we talk about the disabilities aspects of that in relations to Shawn's comments.
14:24:35 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: that's fine, use what Liam suggested.
14:24:58 [Liam]
clarification: disability is the interaction of the environment on the person, not an intergral characteristic of the person.
14:25:03 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Any other comments otherwise I will take for editors discretion. Suggest a retitle of any other documents?
14:25:18 [doylesaylor]
Wayne; spend a week commenting on this then maybe have another go at it?
14:25:20 [shawn]
s/Suggest a retitle of any other documents?/ /
14:25:21 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: yes.
14:25:47 [doylesaylor]
Wayne; really a difficult topic and this is important and the document is almost there.
14:26:51 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: look at the individual sections as well. This refers to the resource and the different parts of the resource as well. Maybe if some of the other pages are fleshed out. Fit with other titles as well. For now don't focus on that, I would appreciate to look at the content.
14:27:04 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: one thing but have you done a pass on the intro paragraph?
14:27:18 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: Yes I saw your comment.
14:27:36 [hbj]
i can
14:27:47 [hbj]
your welcome
14:28:16 [hbj]
yes
14:28:24 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: thanks Helle for cleaning up the notes. Next week we'll have off.
14:28:29 [Liam]
Liam has joined #eo
14:28:30 [shadi]
@@@ n.b. typo: Mental Health section, first sentence, 'phyiscal'
14:28:43 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: We are doing a session on Wednesday afternoon.
14:28:46 [shadi]
@@@ typo again, first sentence in doc, 'impairements'
14:29:13 [doylesaylor]
Shadi: on Wednesday afternoon. We have a track on Thursday and Friday afternoon. And after that Shawn' key note.
14:29:13 [shawn]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2010AprJun/0070.html
14:30:06 [Zakim]
-Liam_McGee
14:30:06 [doylesaylor]
Shawn: anyone know someone going to IIRC going encourage them to attend. Have a great two weeks!
14:30:07 [Zakim]
-Sharron
14:30:07 [Zakim]
-shadi
14:30:09 [Zakim]
-sylvie
14:30:11 [Zakim]
-Ian
14:30:12 [Zakim]
-Helle_Bjarno
14:30:12 [Zakim]
-Shawn
14:30:14 [Zakim]
-doyle
14:30:16 [Zakim]
-Wayne
14:30:17 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:30:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shawn, doyle, +44.207.131.aaaa, +677610aabb, Ian, Shadi, +1.512.305.aacc, +1.562.256.aadd, Sharron, Wayne, Emmanuelle, Liam_McGee, +33.7.aaee, sylvie, Helle_Bjarno
14:30:32 [doylesaylor]
Present: Doyle, Shawn, Ian, Wayne, Shadi, Emmanuelle, Sylvie, Liam, Helle,
14:30:42 [doylesaylor]
Regrets: Song, Andrew,
14:31:01 [doylesaylor]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:31:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/09-eo-minutes.html doylesaylor