08:58:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
08:58:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/07-mediafrag-irc
08:58:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
08:58:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mediafrag
08:58:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
08:58:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
08:58:51 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
08:58:51 <trackbot> Date: 07 July 2010
09:00:21 <foolip> the bridge just keeps hanging up on me
09:00:24 <foolip> UK and France
09:00:42 <raphael> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jul/0023.html
09:00:52 <raphael> zakim, code?
09:00:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), raphael
09:01:00 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has now started
09:01:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
09:01:10 <foolip> ok, that worked
09:01:36 <raphael> zakim, [IPCaller] is foolip
09:01:36 <Zakim> +foolip; got it
09:01:46 <Zakim> +raphael
09:01:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/07-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:02:05 <davy> davy has joined #mediafrag
09:02:16 <raphael> Chair: raphael
09:02:27 <raphael> Regrets: Silvia, Erik, Jack
09:02:33 <dvdeurse> dvdeurse has joined #mediafrag
09:02:43 <raphael> Present: Raphael, Davy, Philip, Yves
09:03:39 <Zakim> +chris
09:03:48 <raphael> zakim, chris is davy
09:03:48 <Zakim> +davy; got it
09:04:40 <Zakim> +Yves
09:05:14 <raphael> zakim, davy is dvdeurse
09:05:14 <Zakim> +dvdeurse; got it
09:05:55 <Zakim> -Yves
09:05:59 <Zakim> +Yves
09:06:28 <raphael> Topic: 1. Admin
09:06:43 <raphael> Approved minutes of past telecon
09:06:43 <raphael> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-mediafrag-minutes.html
09:06:47 <raphael> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-mediafrag-minutes.html
09:06:49 <raphael> +1
09:06:50 <dvdeurse> +1
09:06:53 <raphael> minuts accepted
09:06:54 <foolip> +1
09:06:59 <raphael> s/minuts/minutes
09:07:10 <raphael> This will be last telecon for this summer
09:07:20 <raphael> Next telecon will be 25/08
09:07:24 <raphael> scribe: raphael
09:07:31 <raphael> scribenick: raphael
09:08:16 <raphael> Topic: 2. Specification
09:08:49 <davy> davy has joined #mediafrag
09:08:52 <raphael> Discussion about parsing name values pairs
09:09:39 <raphael> Philip: name values pairs unknown should it be ignored ?
09:09:48 <raphael> ... and how we manage percent-decoding
09:12:25 <Yves> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jul/0024.html
09:12:33 <Yves> axissegment      = anysegment *( "&" anysegment )
09:12:51 <raphael> Philip: my intention is to say that anysegment is timesegment, spacefragment, trackfragment, or unknown fragment
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09:13:21 <Yves> http://www.example.com/foo.mov#foo=bar
09:13:42 <raphael> ... but this does not work either since there is the problem of percent decoding
09:14:24 <raphael> Philip: I'm fine with http://www.example.com/foo.mov#foo=bar not be a media fragment
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09:15:49 <raphael> Yves: the issue is more if the t= is percent encoded
09:16:23 <raphael> ... I suggest to do this first step normalization step, doing at least percent-decoding of characters that are not delims, sub-delims, and other non-safe characters. 
09:16:41 <raphael> Philip: problem of the + sign in the timezone
09:17:00 <raphael> ... it seems to me very complex while what I propose seems simpler
09:17:45 <raphael> ... the spec is currently contradictory
09:18:04 <raphael> ... since the grammar says that arbitrary name value pairs is not valid
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09:18:43 <raphael> Raphael: how do you manage extensibility
09:18:57 <raphael> Yves: do we really want extensibility?
09:19:08 <raphael> ... I'm not sure it is desirable
09:20:24 <raphael> Silvia: her position "I personally believe they should be valid, since our discussion was
09:20:24 <raphael> always that we would ignore name-value parameters that the UA (or the
09:20:24 <raphael> server) doesn't understand.
09:20:45 <raphael> ... the example was: http://www.example.com/football.movie#t=10,20&action=track
09:23:59 <foolip> Zakim, mute me
09:23:59 <Zakim> foolip should now be muted
09:24:03 <foolip> Zakim, unmute me
09:24:03 <Zakim> foolip should no longer be muted
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09:24:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/07-mediafrag-minutes.html davy
09:25:11 <raphael> Yves: I'm not for being completely open to extensibility
09:25:43 <raphael> Philip: you speculate a lot on what people could add after the # but should we really care about this ?
09:27:43 <raphael> Raphael: I notice clearly a disagreement in the group currently
09:28:05 <raphael> Yves's position is that for any unknow name values pair, the entire fragment sould be ignored
09:28:28 <raphael> ... which is not clearly the position of Philip, and I think not what Silvia is thinking too
09:28:56 <raphael> Davy: I understand Yves'as argument about I'm also concerned by the lack of forward compatibility
09:30:56 <raphael> Philip: the current syntax is too strong on my opinion, so I don't want to have it normative
09:32:37 <raphael> Yves: it is to be on the safe side for me to forbid unknown name value pairs
09:36:49 <raphael> Raphael: other problem is %-decoding
09:37:05 <raphael> ... to we want to allow %-encode of t
09:37:29 <raphael> Philip: yes, but then you're generic and don't need to treat track and id as special cases
09:40:26 <Yves> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt => 2.4.  When to Encode or Decode
09:40:58 <raphael> Yves: I suggest to add a paragraph in section 4.1
09:42:02 <raphael> ... explaining a normalization step
09:42:07 <Yves> %74=10,20
09:42:17 <Yves> normlziation phase => t=10,20
09:42:30 <Yves> track=foo%3dbar
09:42:41 <Yves> normalization phase => track=foo%3dbar
09:42:51 <Yves> track foo%3dbar
09:43:02 <Yves> foo=bar
09:43:36 <foolip> Zakim, unmute me
09:43:36 <Zakim> foolip should no longer be muted
09:44:54 <raphael> Philip: I don't see the value of this pre-process step
09:47:49 <raphael> Yves: we first need to extract the name value pairs
09:48:26 <raphael> ... before making the URI %-decoding step
09:48:38 <raphael> Philip: we should first do parsing of arbitrary name value pairs
09:48:52 <raphael> ... and then process those name value pairs
09:49:38 <raphael> ... we then interpret the unicode syntax that results of the %-decoding of those pairs
09:49:48 <davy> +1 to Philip, this is also the way we parse fragments in our player
09:51:57 <raphael> Yves: I agree that this is a way to do it ... but this will not be my way, I would implement it differently
09:55:14 <raphael> close ACTION-182
09:55:14 <trackbot> ACTION-182 Include summary into wiki page closed
09:55:48 <raphael> Topic: 3. Save as Use Case
09:56:29 <foolip> raphael, I have to run for lunch, are we done discussing "my" issue?
09:56:57 <raphael> yes foolip, until September where we will discuss the issue again
09:57:04 <foolip> ok, thanks all!
09:57:05 <raphael> ... and before on the mailing list
09:57:16 <Zakim> -foolip
09:57:30 <raphael> Davy: I think we should save the whole media
10:00:56 <raphael> Yves: save as the whole page ... would mean to save the html, the css, and the media _fragment_ (only the bytes downloaded)
10:01:08 <raphael> ... save as the media would mean save the entire media file
10:01:57 <raphael> Chris question: Is it expected that for every URL request with a fragment that matches
10:01:57 <raphael> the syntax of media fragments that the user agent will attempt to send
10:01:57 <raphael> the Range header? 
10:01:59 <raphael> YES
10:05:24 <raphael> I'm going through http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jun/0099.html
10:08:00 <raphael> Topic: 4. AOB
10:08:08 <raphael> I will answer Chris
10:08:17 <Zakim> -raphael
10:08:19 <Zakim> -Yves
10:08:20 <Zakim> -dvdeurse
10:08:20 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
10:08:22 <Zakim> Attendees were foolip, raphael, Yves, dvdeurse
10:10:35 <davy> davy has left #mediafrag
10:21:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/07-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:28:53 <raphael> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
10:28:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/07-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:29:00 <raphael> zakim, bye
10:29:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mediafrag
10:29:06 <raphael> RRSAgent, bye
10:29:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items