14:47:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:47:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/07/07-forms-irc
14:47:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:47:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
14:47:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_Forms
14:47:10 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:47:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:47:11 <trackbot> Date: 07 July 2010
14:51:46 <Wiecha_> Wiecha_ has joined #forms
14:54:57 <Steven__> Regrets: Philip, Leigh
14:56:35 <Steven__> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jun/0031
14:59:11 <Alain> Alain has joined #forms
14:59:44 <pfennell> pfennell has joined #forms
14:59:44 <wiecha> zakim, who is here?
14:59:44 <Zakim> sorry, wiecha, I don't know what conference this is
14:59:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfennell, Alain, Wiecha_, Zakim, RRSAgent, wiecha, Steven__, markbirbeck, nick, trackbot
14:59:57 <wiecha> zakim, this will be forms
14:59:57 <Zakim> ok, wiecha, I see IA_XForms()11:00AM already started
14:59:58 <Steven__> zakim, this is forms
14:59:58 <Zakim> Steven__, this was already IA_XForms()11:00AM
14:59:59 <Zakim> ok, Steven__; that matches IA_XForms()11:00AM
15:00:08 <wiecha> zakim, who is here?
15:00:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], [IBM]
15:00:08 <Steven__> huh?
15:00:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfennell, Alain, Wiecha_, Zakim, RRSAgent, wiecha, Steven__, markbirbeck, nick, trackbot
15:00:13 <Steven__> zakim, who is here?
15:00:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], [IBM]
15:00:14 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM is me
15:00:19 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
15:00:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfennell, Alain, Wiecha_, Zakim, RRSAgent, wiecha, Steven__, markbirbeck, nick, trackbot
15:00:23 <Steven__> zakim, dial steven-617
15:00:26 <pfennell> I can't join the call but I am watching this channel.
15:00:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven__; the call is being made
15:00:35 <Zakim> +Steven
15:00:47 <Steven__> zakim, I am Steven
15:00:47 <Zakim> ok, Steven__, I now associate you with Steven
15:01:13 <Steven__> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-forms-minutes
15:02:39 <nick> zakim, code?
15:02:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
15:02:54 <unl> unl has joined #forms
15:03:28 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:04:42 <unl> zakim, code?
15:04:42 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), unl
15:05:43 <Steven__> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], wiecha, Steven, Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:05:54 <Steven__> Regrets+Erik
15:06:25 <Steven__> zakim, [IP is Alain
15:06:25 <Zakim> +Alain; got it
15:07:20 <wiecha> scribe: wiecha
15:07:45 <Steven__> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2010/xforms11-qr.html
15:07:47 <wiecha> Topic: Announcements
15:08:11 <wiecha> Steven is looking for comments/feedback on the quick ref
15:08:18 <wiecha> preferably in next 3 weeks
15:08:53 <wiecha> is also planning to update 1.1. tutorial, have been working on it during the past week using xsltxforms for live examples
15:08:56 <Zakim> +??P13
15:09:05 <wiecha> +1 from wiecha
15:09:20 <unl> zakim, ??P13 is me
15:09:20 <Zakim> +unl; got it
15:09:36 <wiecha> Steven asks Alain whether copy is implemented in select
15:09:39 <wiecha> Alain: yes
15:09:49 <wiecha> s/yes/not yet
15:10:29 <wiecha> Steven: anticipating publishing the 1.1 tutorial before leaving on vacation, would like feedback there as well
15:10:43 <nick> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34637/32219/results
15:11:21 <wiecha> will be calls next week and week after
15:11:30 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:12:01 <nick> zakim, mute me
15:12:01 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
15:12:36 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
15:12:36 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), John_Boyer
15:12:52 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:13:20 <Steven__> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-forms-minutes.html
15:13:44 <wiecha> Topic: Node creation functions
15:13:48 <Steven__> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Apr/0024.html
15:14:00 <nick> zakim, unmute 
15:14:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmute', nick
15:14:06 <nick> zakim, unmute  me
15:14:06 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted
15:14:24 <Steven__> zakim, who is here?
15:14:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Alain, wiecha, Steven, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, unl, John_Boyer
15:14:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, unl, pfennell, Alain, Wiecha_, Zakim, RRSAgent, wiecha, Steven__, markbirbeck, nick, trackbot
15:14:46 <wiecha> Nick: node creation functions would avoid need for templates and allow creation of nodes w/names just known at runtime
15:15:06 <Steven__> akim, who is noisy?
15:15:12 <Steven__> zakim, who is noisy?
15:15:26 <Zakim> Steven__, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Nick_van_den_Bleeken (89%)
15:15:34 <wiecha> Nick: John suggested using creation functions only in actions to avoid refresh problems
15:15:55 <wiecha> Steven: would like a simpler approach than we have now
15:16:22 <wiecha> Nick: can accept restrictions as suggested by John
15:17:02 <wiecha> John: get something working for most urgent use cases, then look at processing model changes for other cases later on
15:17:25 <wiecha> Steven: could @ref be extended to create nodes as side-effects
15:17:53 <wiecha> Nick: node fns solve other issues too...iterations in repeat or attributes in data structure for submission, hard with just @ref
15:18:17 <wiecha> Nick: maybe having something even easier like @ref would be good too, but other cases remain
15:18:46 <wiecha> Nick: @ref w/predicate would be hard/invalid
15:19:07 <wiecha> Steven: trying to make the simple cases simple
15:19:11 <wiecha> John: what are those?
15:19:38 <wiecha> Steven: first one in email, ref="foo/@bar"   just create @bar if it doesn't exist
15:19:44 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Node_%27create%27_functions
15:19:47 <wiecha> Alain: what about attribute as a new action?
15:20:04 <wiecha> Steven: attribute is an example of one case, could be used for elts as well
15:20:17 <wiecha> Nick: that's where node create fns come in
15:20:28 <wiecha> Steven: see the complex cases yes, but there are really simple ones
15:21:08 <wiecha> John: we've made other decisions where we create more attributes 
15:21:25 <wiecha> John: maybe we need create if not there, return if there type of function...still inside the ref
15:21:53 <wiecha> e.g. require("foo/@bar")
15:22:10 <wiecha> Nick: a fn can never change the data model
15:22:26 <wiecha> so node fns use insert action since fns are pure
15:22:29 <wiecha> John: right
15:22:58 <wiecha> Nick: need to avoid changing underlying data model
15:23:04 <wiecha> Alain: main problem is about schema
15:23:34 <wiecha> can define the attribute is relevant but if it's not in the instance not possible to ...
15:23:51 <wiecha> would support ref="foo/@bar" if allowed by schema
15:24:32 <wiecha> John: right, author has said if not in instance data pls add, could just add by other means
15:25:09 <wiecha> Nick: we have conditional insert with node fns test for missing content and do extra inserts
15:25:22 <wiecha> Steven: sounds like a bind...required="foo/@bar"
15:25:53 <wiecha> Nick: yes, but binds bind to nodeset
15:26:23 <wiecha> in our impl we can say, for example, want 3 iterations and create those placeholder elements
15:26:32 <wiecha> Alain: right, that's why I think it's schema driven
15:26:48 <wiecha> Steven: so supply fragment of schema
15:27:01 <Wiecha_> Wiecha_ has joined #forms
15:27:01 <wiecha> Alain: don't use instance to determine if it's relevant to have content...just schema
15:27:13 <wiecha> Steven: problem arises with optional elements
15:27:20 <wiecha> wiecha: schema is underconstrained
15:28:02 <wiecha> Nick: gets worse with sequence
15:28:05 <wiecha> or multiple
15:29:04 <wiecha> John: schema by itself may not be enough but it's part of the approach
15:29:38 <wiecha> need to differentiate between schema from external source, schema for user interaction, etc
15:30:09 <wiecha> seems like the requirement is to have an automatic way to determine at runtime conditional content
15:30:38 <wiecha> at design time we create optional elements and then conceptually set up relevance constraints to produce the instance as desired for submission
15:30:53 <wiecha> Nick: do you unroll everything?  could have lots of branches from the schema
15:31:15 <wiecha> John: right, but with schema alone that's the weakness...
15:31:34 <wiecha> might have to do pruning downstream
15:31:45 <wiecha> it's a problem more general than UI binding
15:31:56 <wiecha> not enough expressive power in xforms to deal with optional elements
15:32:16 <wiecha> Steven: right, but still have the feeling that a lot of this could still be declarative
15:32:42 <wiecha> John: that's where I'm going...things we auto-generate at design time could be applied to runtime too
15:33:12 <wiecha> Nick: we allow controls to say data needs to be there so at runtime we insure node is in instance
15:33:46 <wiecha> John: thinking more about design experience analogy...starting from data/schema we start by drag/drop of instance data to canvas
15:34:01 <wiecha> if there are optional subtrees and user doesn't generate UI controls, that allows us to prune
15:34:36 <wiecha> taking this idea into runtime, suppose model has schema and instance has flagged for autogeneration, then it's like lazy-authoring++
15:34:52 <wiecha> instance is backed by schema, have UI controls pointing to instance...should then auto-generate
15:35:32 <wiecha> Steven: we use bindings to decide whether control is there or not based on instance vs. wanting to lazy generate
15:35:38 <wiecha> need to distinguish between these behaviors
15:35:53 <wiecha> could be said in the model, or flagged on the UI
15:36:12 <wiecha> seems like useful function for the author
15:36:21 <wiecha> Nick: not just element being there but also having a useful default
15:36:45 <wiecha> we can do this in our impl...checks for node, creates if needed, if value is empty applies default from design time
15:37:03 <wiecha> Alain: what about submission?
15:37:09 <wiecha> should we delete extra nodes not being used?
15:37:34 <wiecha> Steven: seems like we can still use relevance for that
15:37:40 <wiecha> Alain: ok
15:38:13 <wiecha> Steven: interesting about default, suppose we had a MIP that said default="abc"
15:38:22 <wiecha> then default="" creates w/o value
15:38:26 <wiecha> default="abc" with value
15:38:34 <wiecha> Nick: still need to control number of repeats
15:39:15 <wiecha> Steven: can think of static number of repeats, but need to think about dynamic
15:39:34 <wiecha> Nick: need to be flexible when these constraints are applied...only at load?  after instance replace? other?
15:40:10 <wiecha> zakim, who is noisy?
15:40:21 <Zakim> wiecha, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Nick_van_den_Bleeken (29%), John_Boyer (34%), Steven (65%)
15:40:33 <nick> zakim, mute me
15:40:33 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
15:40:47 <wiecha> Steven: sounds like we need some design work on doing this declaratively, but node creation fn should still exist as an action
15:41:08 <nick> that is my opinion too, the node creation functions solve other needs too
15:41:18 <wiecha> John: right, sounds like a feature separate from node create functions
15:41:58 <wiecha> Steven: do we need an action item?
15:41:59 <nick> zakim, unmute me
15:41:59 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted
15:42:28 <wiecha> Nick: for node creation functions, I could send an email for additional feedback from those not on the call
15:42:39 <wiecha> then implementors could experiment...
15:43:03 <wiecha> John: key bit is to say we think these are good additions that should be avail to xpaths in actions only...
15:43:13 <wiecha> encourage also implement binding exception if used elsewhere
15:43:54 <wiecha> Nick: also would think about a parse function
15:44:21 <wiecha> takes XML as text content and returns doc node
15:44:24 <wiecha> then can be inserted etc
15:44:40 <wiecha> John: have also seen need for parse and serialize too...should go in together
15:44:53 <wiecha> talked about this for 1.1 but should consider again
15:45:28 <wiecha> might be some wiki content
15:45:37 <wiecha> Nick: yes, parse is there but not serialize
15:45:49 <wiecha> since that's not a "creation" function :-)
15:47:08 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Node_%27create%27_functions
15:47:10 <wiecha> John: could you add parse to the page?
15:47:43 <wiecha> ACTION: Nick to update wiki page to split out parse and serialize as future fns/actions with exception handling
15:47:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-624 - Update wiki page to split out parse and serialize as future fns/actions with exception handling [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2010-07-14].
15:48:17 <wiecha> Topic: Dependencies for XPath evalution
15:48:21 <Steven__> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Apr/0031.html
15:49:58 <wiecha> Alain: changing child node should change value displayed
15:51:44 <wiecha> does change to child node imply change to parent?
15:51:48 <wiecha> Nick: not according to the spec
15:52:11 <wiecha> John: the string function is implicitly being invoked internally references nodes which are not in the dependency graph
15:52:26 <wiecha> since they don't appear in the arg list
15:52:44 <wiecha> s/arg/parameter
15:53:01 <wiecha> we can't see into the internals to see what else might change
15:53:14 <wiecha> the author could explicitly list nodes in the value expression
15:53:21 <wiecha> Steven: where is the problem?
15:53:27 <wiecha> John: spec doesn't allow this, no
15:53:57 <wiecha> value output is implicitly gathering up entire subtree...but the dependency graph only looks at fn signatures
15:54:05 <wiecha> and this behavior is opaque
15:54:49 <wiecha> we don't have metadata on a fn listing those additional nodes being reference
15:54:54 <wiecha> s/reference/referenced
15:55:22 <wiecha> Nick: might be possible to do this with ref rather than value...
15:55:55 <wiecha> John: spec says UI should reflect state of the model in general, but in specifics goes back to the graph
15:56:57 <wiecha> Nick: maybe we could interpret the spec to allow this, but it's not the usual impl behavior
15:57:16 <wiecha> Alain: EMC does behave as I described...it works
15:57:33 <wiecha> Nick: right, depends on how they're tracking changes
15:58:03 <wiecha> might not be narrowly scoped as per the spec
15:58:12 <wiecha> Steven: conclusion?  leave alone?
15:58:40 <wiecha> John: there is an alternative way to write this 
15:59:07 <wiecha> Alain: still have a concern about linkage between parent node and child node linkages
15:59:10 <wiecha> specifically about xslt fns
15:59:42 <wiecha> John: came up because xslt, like string, access nodes that are not apparent in its param list
15:59:46 <wiecha> so how to track dependencies?
15:59:57 <wiecha> spec doesn't cover these extra dependencies
16:00:06 <wiecha> section 7.4.3
16:00:11 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#expr-ui-expressions
16:00:21 <wiecha> which suggests there will be impls which do this optimization and this is ok
16:00:51 <wiecha> Nick: we talked about this and also had same issues about ID fn...touches descendent nodes...same question
16:01:08 <wiecha> ID can specify roots of subtrees where you search for matches
16:01:21 <wiecha> so if you change an ID need to reeval the fn
16:01:35 <wiecha> will probably occur in other functions in the future as well
16:01:48 <wiecha> John: yes, generic problem not just @value implicitly invoking string
16:01:57 <wiecha> any extension xpath function may touch nodes we don't know about
16:02:19 <wiecha> let alone the xforms built-in fns
16:02:31 <wiecha> Nick: maybe we need some additional metadata on a function declaration
16:02:46 <wiecha> or conventions on fn signatures
16:03:09 <wiecha> Steven: sounds like we need more research
16:03:22 <wiecha> John: does not currently work, and would be challenging to make it work
16:03:28 <wiecha> Steven: yes, but use cases are there
16:03:31 <wiecha> John: yup
16:03:47 <wiecha> Steven: will mark this is not yet resolved
16:03:52 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:03:52 <Zakim> -Steven
16:03:53 <Zakim> -unl
16:03:54 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:03:56 <Zakim> -Alain
16:04:01 <wiecha> actions?
16:04:06 <wiecha> yw
16:04:16 <wiecha> zakim, bye
16:04:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
16:04:16 <Steven__> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:16 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were [IPcaller], [IBM], wiecha, Steven, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Alain, unl, John_Boyer
16:04:29 <Steven__> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/07-forms-minutes.html Steven__
16:04:34 <wiecha> thx
16:04:35 <wiecha> bye
16:04:53 <Steven__> chair: Steven
16:05:00 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
16:05:04 <Steven__> zakim, this is forms
16:05:04 <Zakim> sorry, Steven__, I do not see a conference named 'forms' in progress or scheduled at this time
16:05:12 <Steven__> zakim, who is here?
16:05:12 <Zakim> sorry, Steven__, I don't know what conference this is
16:05:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see Wiecha_, John_Boyer, pfennell, RRSAgent, Steven__, markbirbeck, nick, trackbot
16:05:19 <Steven__> zakim, list?
16:05:19 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven__.
16:05:26 <Steven__> zakim, bye
16:05:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
16:05:36 <Steven__> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/07/07-forms-minutes.html Steven__