19:58:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ssn
19:58:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-ssn-irc
19:58:14 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, bookmark
19:58:14 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-ssn-irc#T19-58-14
19:58:23 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, this will be inc_ssn 
19:58:24 <Zakim> ok, laurent_lefort_cs, I see INC_SSN()4:00PM already started
19:58:33 <laurent_lefort_cs>  Meeting:   SSN XG
19:58:40 <laurent_lefort_cs> Chair:     Laurent
19:58:50 <laurent_lefort_cs>  Agenda:  
19:58:56 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
19:58:57 <Zakim> INC_SSN()4:00PM has ended
19:58:57 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller]
19:59:29 <Zakim> INC_SSN()4:00PM has now started
19:59:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:59:36 <laurent_lefort_cs> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-ssn/2010Jun/0033.html
19:59:54 <laurent_lefort_cs> Previous: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-ssn/2010Jun/0030.html
20:00:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
20:00:19 <Zakim> +??P2
20:01:05 <Payam> zakim, ??pp2 is me
20:01:05 <Zakim> sorry, Payam, I do not recognize a party named '??pp2'
20:01:08 <Zakim> -??P2
20:01:15 <Payam> zakim, ??P2 is me
20:01:15 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as ??P2, Payam
20:01:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
20:01:32 <Payam> zakim, IPCaller.a is me
20:01:34 <Zakim> +Payam; got it
20:01:46 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
20:01:54 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, [IPCaller.aa] is me
20:01:54 <Zakim> +laurent_lefort_cs; got it
20:02:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:02:14 <Payam> Hi Lauernt,  Hi Andriy and welcome!
20:02:17 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
20:02:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:02:47 <Andriy> Hi!
20:02:52 <Payam> It seems fine; I just got connected 10 minutes ago. I hope it would be stable
20:03:07 <Andriy> Trying to join the telco
20:07:10 <laurent_lefort_cs> Teleconferences tricks for Andriy http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/Scribing.html
20:07:40 <laurent_lefort_cs> and http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/TeleconEtiquette
20:10:26 <Zakim> + +1.937.775.aaaa
20:12:09 <Payam> It's fine
20:12:17 <laurent_lefort_cs> Topic: Welcome to Andriy
20:12:59 <cory> cory has joined #ssn
20:13:00 <Payam> Adnriy- open University- Andriy work in smart prodcuts project
20:13:12 <laurent_lefort_cs> Andriy Nikolov http://people.kmi.open.ac.uk/andriy/
20:15:21 <Payam> Andriy- the use cases from smart project could be interesting to the group
20:15:43 <Payam> - smart objects project-
20:18:24 <laurent_lefort_cs> Topic: Operating and survival conditions
20:18:51 <laurent_lefort_cs> Payam: Looked at the model built by Michael 
20:19:15 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... There are some properties  which are not defined  
20:19:55 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... There are more properties which can be defined 
20:20:19 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... e.g. the role of a sensor as a router in a WSN
20:21:06 <laurent_lefort_cs> Laurent: commenting the refs on http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Sensor_types#System_and_Product_ontologies
20:25:15 <cory> ?q
20:25:46 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack Cory
20:25:55 <Payam> +q
20:26:13 <laurent_lefort_cs> Discussion on things which are missing in the current model
20:26:34 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... in relation to the communication aspect of the role
20:27:47 <laurent_lefort_cs> Cory: question on clarifying how routers fits in the picture 
20:28:34 <laurent_lefort_cs> Laurent asking Andriy if the communication aspect is important for is use case
20:29:02 <laurent_lefort_cs> Andriy: not really, we have use cases on sensors monitoring a kitchen
20:30:50 <laurent_lefort_cs> Laurent: The Phenonet example has particular device acting as gateways
20:33:52 <laurent_lefort_cs> Topic: Semantic Markup
20:34:06 <laurent_lefort_cs> scribenick: Payam
20:37:07 <Payam> Laurent: use cases that describe different attributes of sensors;
20:37:40 <Payam> semantic annotation allows to do more and add more metadata to these XML based description
20:38:05 <Payam> Laurent: the question is what we can do after annotation that we couldn't do before?
20:38:38 <Payam> Laurent: we change the description vocabluary to RDF/OWL and in overall semantic web standard descriptions
20:38:50 <Payam> Laurent: it alos helps to discovey of resources
20:39:27 <Payam> Laurent: if you only add annotations as they are defined now, you can describe all you want?>
20:40:21 <Payam> Laurent: we ned to compare what is feasible with the current OGC, leaf nodes? 
20:40:45 <Payam> what are those in OGC descriptions for example in SensorML?
20:41:29 <Payam> - some of these references are made in Laurent's presetnation on annotation (see on wiki)
20:42:10 <Payam> Laurent: should we also recommend annotation on nodes that are not leaf nodes?
20:42:39 <Payam> Cory: what's the benefit of annotating of those high-level concepts?
20:43:56 <Payam> Laurent: when you use descriptions, in some cases one may need to access/anotate to high level attributes
20:43:59 <Payam> +q
20:44:58 <cory> +q
20:45:20 <Payam> Payam: what we do is defining a common vocabluary
20:45:34 <Payam> and then define how the annotations can be made
20:45:48 <Payam> but what is going to be annotated in not in the scope of our work
20:46:38 <Payam> Payam: we define vocab, common methods to define associations to our vocab; but the sources that could be annotated would be users' choice
20:47:09 <Payam> +q
20:47:33 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack cory
20:47:48 <Payam> Laurent: xlink could impose some limitations for annotations
20:50:16 <Payam> Laurent: by adding annotations to some attributes of existing descriptions you can add more metadata and have more use cases
20:51:19 <Payam> Laurent: in the report we should highlight how our work is different from OGC
20:53:37 <Payam> Payam: should we also add something related to RDFa and compare it with xLink?
20:54:59 <Payam> +q
20:55:10 <laurent_lefort_cs> ack Payam
20:56:02 <Payam> Laurent: we don't make recommendations; we only explore possible solutions
20:56:11 <Payam> for annotation report
21:00:31 <Payam> Laurent: can we have only one link to model/reference to annotate the resources?
21:01:13 <Payam> Laurent: 1st use case; having annotation where ever we can
21:01:43 <Payam> 2nd option: having link from user definition to another ontology(?)- two step link
21:01:57 <Payam> two steps links
21:02:16 <Payam> +q
21:06:11 <Payam> Laurent: two step annotation enables to associate the value for the attributes that we have define in our ontology to domain knowledge
21:06:43 <Payam> this means having common vocab. for domain knowledge then people can interpret instances created using our ontology
21:07:17 <Payam> payam: this is interesting; however we have to be careful that domain knowldge specification does not fit into the (current) scope of our work
21:07:47 <Payam> Laurent: e.g. the domain knowledge and 2nd steps of annotation for example could use Linked Data
21:07:53 <Payam> Linked data approach
21:13:50 <Zakim> -Payam
21:14:13 <Payam> bye
21:17:08 <Zakim> - +1.937.775.aaaa
21:35:24 <Zakim> -laurent_lefort_cs
21:35:35 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
21:35:36 <Zakim> INC_SSN()4:00PM has ended
21:35:38 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], Payam, laurent_lefort_cs, +1.937.775.aaaa
21:35:56 <Andriy> Andriy has left #ssn
21:37:45 <laurent_lefort_cs> Laurent: summary of the discussion with Cory
21:39:26 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... Explain (report, examples) how our proposed used of XLink extends what can currently be done 
21:40:08 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... The motivation is then to overcome the limitations of existing standards
21:40:28 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... when they use definitions which are too generic
21:41:22 <laurent_lefort_cs> s/proposed used/proposed usage/
21:41:31 <laurent_lefort_cs> ...
21:42:01 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... Clarify the semantics of modelReference:
21:42:29 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... normal use (SAWSDL) is to link a schema element to (generally) a class
21:43:01 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... second use (in some examples published earlier that we need to revisit) is to
21:43:42 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... add links to individuals (an alternative method to include data from remote sources)
21:43:44 <laurent_lefort_cs> ...
21:44:05 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... Check the data ingestion use case defined by SAPIENCE where
21:44:36 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... there is a second type of link domain reference to link 
21:45:10 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... "local" vocabulary items to "reference" ontology definitions
21:45:17 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... 
21:45:39 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... Motivation for the 2nd case is different: it is to automate as best we can
21:46:11 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... the translation from data managed by external parties into a common format
21:47:06 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... and also migrate the extra information present in the original format 
21:47:16 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... into an exploitable annotation
21:47:53 <laurent_lefort_cs> ....
21:48:55 <laurent_lefort_cs> Feedback from Payam and Cory: more work to be done to 
21:52:36 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... check if we need different annotation mechanisms for modelReference and domainReference
21:53:13 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... or if this is something which is beyond our reach 
21:58:45 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... The trade-offs for the example mimicking what Sapience tries to do are: to highlight the value of the annotation mechanism we propose without stretching the specification too far 
21:59:04 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... The trade-offs for the example mimicking what Sapience tries to do are: 
22:01:34 <laurent_lefort_cs> s/... The trade-offs for the example mimicking what Sapience tries to do are: /... Need /
22:04:23 <laurent_lefort_cs> ... (to be continued)
22:04:26 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, list attendees
22:04:26 <Zakim> sorry, laurent_lefort_cs, I don't know what conference this is
22:05:08 <laurent_lefort_cs> Regrets: see http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43337/SSN-XG-summer/results
22:05:35 <laurent_lefort_cs>  rrsagent, make log public
22:05:43 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, please draft minutes
22:05:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs
22:06:08 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, make log public
22:08:17 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, please generate minutes
22:08:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/30-ssn-minutes.html laurent_lefort_cs
22:08:29 <laurent_lefort_cs> zakim, bye
22:08:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ssn
22:14:44 <laurent_lefort_cs> rrsagent, bye
22:14:44 <RRSAgent> I see no action items