16:58:08 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:58:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc 16:58:10 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:58:10 Zakim has joined #ua 16:58:12 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:58:12 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 16:58:13 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:58:13 Date: 24 June 2010 16:59:21 /me Jeanne do you know the phone status? 16:59:39 no phone numbers from UK and FR. 16:59:45 zakim, code? 16:59:46 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 16:59:54 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:00:01 +Jeanne 17:00:22 you might as well make that the first item on the agenda. 17:00:44 + +1.425.895.aaaa 17:01:13 zakim, aaaa is really Greg 17:01:14 +Greg; got it 17:01:34 zakim, who is here? 17:01:34 On the phone I see Jeanne, Greg 17:01:35 On IRC I see RRSAgent, kford, jeanne, Greg, trackbot 17:01:41 patrickhlauke has joined #ua 17:02:25 +[Microsoft] 17:03:11 is the call still going ahead via zakim bridge? 17:03:25 Agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/ 17:03:27 Agenda+ Discuss Simon's proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html 17:03:29 Agenda+ Tracking UAAG implementations 17:03:30 Agenda+ Action item review 17:03:32 Agenda+Promoting most recent working draft and getting to last call 17:03:33 Agenda+Report from Kim on Presentation 17:03:34 yes, but only the US number is working 17:03:35 Agenda+Making Progress on implementation document 17:03:41 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:04:23 + +1.617.325.aabb 17:04:58 sharper has joined #ua 17:04:59 it's not reading the code for some reason 17:05:19 zakim, code? 17:05:19 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper 17:05:27 Jeanne says the phone is still not working. 17:05:27 the US number is not taking the code? I know there is a problem with the UK and FR numbers taking the code. 17:05:56 nope not accepting the code from my end 17:06:05 UK end 17:06:10 So, I think we are going to have to try skype. 17:06:14 any alternative numbers? 17:06:44 username patrick_h_lauke - boringly enough 17:09:29 1 617.761.6200 is the US number 17:09:58 yes i skype: patrick_h_lauke 17:10:27 +??P10 17:11:30 -[Microsoft] 17:13:33 i'm set to only allow calls from contacts...kelly you may have to quickly request to be my friend or something 17:14:41 zakim, who is here? 17:14:41 On the phone I see Jeanne, Greg, +1.617.325.aabb, ??P10 17:14:42 On IRC I see sharper, KimPatch, patrickhlauke, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, jeanne, Greg, trackbot 17:17:57 -??P10 17:21:02 +[IPcaller] 17:22:58 group resolving phone and talking. 17:24:23 zakim, agenda? 17:24:23 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 17:24:25 1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/ [from kford] 17:24:28 2. Discuss Simon's proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html [from kford] 17:24:32 3. Tracking UAAG implementations [from kford] 17:24:34 4. Action item review [from kford] 17:24:35 5. Promoting most recent working draft and getting to last call [from kford] 17:24:39 6. Report from Kim on Presentation [from kford] 17:24:40 7. Making Progress on implementation document [from kford] 17:25:06 zakim, take up item 1 17:25:06 agendum 1. "Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/" taken up [from kford] 17:26:03 #1 Proposal for 2.1.5. Implementation Document, from Simon 17:27:05 All votes are accept or neutral. 17:27:12 action: JS to add 2.1.5 proposal to the document. From the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/. See punctuation changes from Kim 17:27:12 Created ACTION-405 - Add 2.1.5 proposal to the document. From the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/. See punctuation changes from Kim [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01]. 17:27:25 #2 Proposal for 3.12.3 Provide alternative views, from Simon 17:29:12 Patrick asks if there are implementations. Simon knows of none yet. 17:30:40 Greg is wary of making it Level A with no good implementations, but we can filter is at a later stage if there are still no implementations. 17:30:47 Patrick agrees. 17:31:34 General agreement on Greg's proposed simplified wording of the SC plus the Intent paragraph. 17:32:20 Kelly recommends reducing from Level A to AA. 17:32:56 Patrick agrees AA or AAA, noting it's really remedial for when the content is badly designed and doesn't sufficiently convey the information. 17:33:20 Simon would accept AA but would prefer not AAA. 17:34:00 Kelly notes that 508 Refresh includes WCAG through Level AA, meaning AA no longer automatically means "ignore this" as it used to. 17:34:34 Simon suggests we should lead rather than follow, motivating UA developers to add features they don't have yet. 17:35:31 Jeanne explains that W3 requires two real-world implementations for each SC. 17:36:18 Patrick asks if we have info on how widespread the problem is (content that cannot be used without this feature). 17:38:52 Greg suggests that the difference between A and AA is the latter is for critical, base-level expectations. 17:39:08 Simon agrees with AA. 17:40:01 action: JS to update 3.12.3 with the proposal from Simon, including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent paragraph. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change the level to AA. 17:40:01 Created ACTION-406 - Update 3.12.3 with the proposal from Simon, including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent paragraph. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change the level to AA. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01]. 17:40:37 Kelly suggests including as AA and in future meeting discuss better criteria and process for us to decide on level for SC. 17:40:53 Jeanne notes that WCAG found it very difficult to come up with hard and fast rules. 17:41:31 issue: do we need to define how we reach our level ratings? 17:41:31 Created ISSUE-71 - Do we need to define how we reach our level ratings? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/71/edit . 17:42:04 Kim suggests that many UA have thumbnail views, as in Acrobat Reader or PowerPoint, that she thinks would comply with this. 17:42:24 Greg wouldn't have though they would have complied, meaning that it's still too ambiguous. 17:42:38 zakim, close item 1 17:42:38 agendum 1, Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/, closed 17:42:40 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:42:41 2. Discuss Simon's proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html [from kford] 17:42:53 zakim, taie up item 2 17:42:53 I don't understand 'taie up item 2', kford 17:43:01 zakim, takeup item 2 17:43:01 I don't understand 'takeup item 2', kford 17:43:13 zakim, take up item 2 17:43:13 agendum 2. "Discuss Simon's proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html" taken up [from kford] 17:44:20 Simon explains that he was trying to simplify the original 3.3.1, felt it was 3 separate issues, one about relationships was already covered in 4.7.1. 17:45:54 For example, getting info on where you were in a table is similar to learning where you are in a document hierarchy. 17:48:21 4.7.1 Access to Relationships which Aid Navigation: Provide access to explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content, and the path of nodes leading from the root of any content hierarchy to that position, thereby aiding structured navigation by enhancing a users comprehension of their position (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers, etc.). (Level A) 17:49:23 Greg suggested starting with approving the high-level intent, and general agreement. 17:50:31 Greg suggests moving the section "thereby..." into the Intent section. 17:52:20 +1 17:52:23 No objections to moving the "thereby..." into Intent. 17:53:25 Action: SH to write intent and examples for text removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. 17:53:25 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH 17:53:25 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes) 17:53:29 action: JS to update 4.7.1 with the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent 17:53:30 Created ACTION-407 - Update 4.7.1 with the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01]. 17:54:13 Action: SHarper to write intent and examples for text removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. 17:54:13 Created ACTION-408 - Write intent and examples for text removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. [on Simon Harper - due 2010-07-01]. 17:54:40 zakim, close item 2 17:54:40 agendum 2, Discuss Simon's proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html, closed 17:54:42 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:54:44 3. Tracking UAAG implementations [from kford] 17:55:05 zakim, take up item 3 17:55:05 agendum 3. "Tracking UAAG implementations" taken up [from kford] 17:55:57 Kelly: resuming discussion from a few weeks ago about how to record which user agents implement which success criteria. 17:56:45 Kelly: Greg wrote a program to turn the document into a spreadsheet, and Kelly tried to share that on live.com, but running into problems with permissions, etc. 17:58:22 Kelly surveys the group on who has Live IDs. 17:59:14 He asked everyone to send him their Live IDs. 18:00:15 Kelly notes that he has not been able to successfully use Google Docs with his screen reader. 18:00:40 Live.com would let him use Excel to edit the document rather than a Web interface. 18:01:30 Some members are still using Excel 2003; Kelly will find out if that's supported. 18:01:50 simon suggests www.getdropbox.com 18:02:40 Kim notes Google Docs has version control and revision history, which is good when a group is editing. 18:07:03 zakim, close item 3 18:07:03 agendum 3, Tracking UAAG implementations, closed 18:07:04 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:07:05 4. Action item review [from kford] 18:07:36 zakim, agenda? 18:07:36 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 18:07:38 4. Action item review [from kford] 18:07:39 Kelly will send a sample spreadsheet to the list for people to look at. He'll also look into distribution/sharing solutions as discussed. 18:07:40 5. Promoting most recent working draft and getting to last call [from kford] 18:07:42 6. Report from Kim on Presentation [from kford] 18:07:43 7. Making Progress on implementation document [from kford] 18:08:06 zakim, take up item 5 18:08:06 agendum 5. "Promoting most recent working draft and getting to last call" taken up [from kford] 18:08:54 Kelly congratulates everyone for getting the new working draft published last week. 18:09:15 He stresses the need to recruit reviewers...now. 18:10:24 Jeanne notes that it really slows down the process if a document has to go to last call twice, as in if too much feedback doesn't come in until last call. 18:11:38 Jeanne and Kelly say comments should be in by July 29. 18:13:00 Discussion of how sometimes working group members can forward comments from reviewers who wish to remain anonymous. 18:13:19 zakim, close item 5 18:13:19 agendum 5, Promoting most recent working draft and getting to last call, closed 18:13:21 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:13:22 4. Action item review [from kford] 18:13:23 zakim, take up item 6 18:13:23 agendum 6. "Report from Kim on Presentation" taken up [from kford] 18:13:51 action: Jeanne to send an email to the list with the links and dates for reviewing the UAAG WD. 18:13:51 Created ACTION-409 - Send an email to the list with the links and dates for reviewing the UAAG WD. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01]. 18:14:30 Kim reports on her 5-minute presentation, where she gave three specific users as test cases, and tied it to mainstream usability. 18:14:58 Everyone came up with use cases, with 7 total, broke into small groups that created 19 that were then voted on. 18:15:28 Top three are: 1) speech commands are hard to remember, leading to "adjust and shar" 18:15:35 2) Focus issues. 18:15:44 3) Undo. 18:16:10 Elements of two of those ended up in other proposals. 18:16:53 Elements of undo and redo, a participant pointed out other groups had been working on that issue. 18:18:04 People resonated that users need more control. 18:18:50 A number of people called out usability as issues they had gained a lot of insight into as a result of Kim's efforts. 18:19:47 One person suggested having accessibility folks work on good defaults, along the lines of accessibility being a good test bed for all usability. 18:20:49 zakim, close item 6 18:20:49 agendum 6, Report from Kim on Presentation, closed 18:20:50 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:20:52 4. Action item review [from kford] 18:20:57 zakim, take up item 7 18:20:57 agendum 7. "Making Progress on implementation document" taken up [from kford] 18:22:26 zakim, who is making noise? 18:22:38 jeanne, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.617.325.aabb (4%) 18:23:13 Jeanne has noted that sometimes getting small numbers of members together they can crank through a lot of work on revisions, implementation details, etc. 18:23:36 zakim, mute aabb 18:23:36 +1.617.325.aabb should now be muted 18:23:51 zakim, who is making noise? 18:23:56 zakim, who is here? 18:23:56 On the phone I see Jeanne, Greg, +1.617.325.aabb (muted), [IPcaller] 18:23:57 On IRC I see sharper, KimPatch, patrickhlauke, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, jeanne, Greg, trackbot 18:24:02 zakim, mute Greg 18:24:02 Greg should now be muted 18:24:04 jeanne, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds 18:24:23 zakim, unmute greg 18:24:23 Greg should no longer be muted 18:24:30 zakim, unmute kim 18:24:30 sorry, jeanne, I do not know which phone connection belongs to kim 18:24:32 we seem to have lost the phone. 18:24:39 zakim, aabb is kim 18:24:39 +kim; got it 18:24:44 zakim, unmute kim 18:24:44 kim should no longer be muted 18:24:46 Do you all hear us? 18:25:57 Jeanne says we need to speed up progress on the Implementation document. On ATAG a small group got together for a few days and wrote the whole thing, which was later approved by the wider group. 18:26:39 Jeanne asks if there are preferences between a formal face-to-face, or have an informal document where people can just work. Either could allow phone participation. 18:28:58 A number of people would have difficulty traveling this summer, but pretty much everyone could block out time for remote work. 18:29:49 action: jeanne to create a survey of dates when there could be a Implementation Writer's Meeting 18:29:49 Created ACTION-410 - Create a survey of dates when there could be a Implementation Writer's Meeting [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-07-01]. 18:29:51 Jeanne will do a survey to try to find dates that work. 18:30:52 Kelly exhorts everyone to review their action items. 18:32:46 -kim 18:32:55 patrickhlauke has left #ua 18:33:11 rrsagent, make logs public 18:33:16 rrsagent, make minutes 18:33:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:33:50 chair: kelly 18:33:57 sharper has left #ua 18:34:35 present+ Greg, Jeanne, Kelly, Kim, Simon, Patrick 18:34:41 rrsagent, make minutes 18:34:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:34:58 -[IPcaller] 18:35:21 regrets+ Jim, Mark 18:35:27 rrsagent, make minutes 18:35:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:37:14 -Greg 18:37:15 -Jeanne 18:37:17 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:37:18 Attendees were Jeanne, +1.425.895.aaaa, Greg, [Microsoft], +1.617.325.aabb, [IPcaller], kim 18:38:14 zakim, bye 18:38:14 Zakim has left #ua 18:38:20 z 18:38:24 rrsagent, bye 18:38:24 I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-actions.rdf : 18:38:24 ACTION: JS to add 2.1.5 proposal to the document. From the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/. See punctuation changes from Kim [1] 18:38:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc#T17-27-12 18:38:24 ACTION: JS to update 3.12.3 with the proposal from Simon, including the rewording in Greg's comments plus the Intent paragraph. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100615/results#xq2. Change the level to AA. [2] 18:38:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc#T17-40-01 18:38:24 ACTION: SH to write intent and examples for text removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. [3] 18:38:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc#T17-53-25 18:38:24 ACTION: JS to update 4.7.1 with the text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0110.html. The section "thereby..." is moved into the Intent [4] 18:38:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc#T17-53-29 18:38:24 ACTION: SHarper to write intent and examples for text removed from 4.7.1 to intent section. [5] 18:38:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc#T17-54-13 18:38:24 ACTION: Jeanne to send an email to the list with the links and dates for reviewing the UAAG WD. [6] 18:38:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc#T18-13-51 18:38:24 ACTION: jeanne to create a survey of dates when there could be a Implementation Writer's Meeting [7] 18:38:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-ua-irc#T18-29-49