14:57:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:57:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-html-a11y-irc
14:57:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:57:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:46 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:46 <trackbot> Date: 24 June 2010
14:58:44 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 2119
14:58:44 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
14:58:49 <MichaelC> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:58:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.408.307.aaaa, Michael_Cooper
14:59:13 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Eric_Carlson
14:59:13 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson; got it
14:59:14 <janina> zakim, call janina
14:59:14 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
14:59:15 <Zakim> +Janina
14:59:19 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
14:59:19 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
14:59:49 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
14:59:49 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
14:59:49 <janina> agenda: this
14:59:49 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe
14:59:49 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review
14:59:50 <janina> agenda+ Subteam Reports
14:59:50 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0210.html
14:59:51 <janina> agenda+ Meeting Time Survey/Results
14:59:55 <janina> agenda+ ARIA Mapping Proposal
14:59:56 <janina> agenda+ TF at TPAC 2010
14:59:58 <janina> agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review
15:00:00 <janina> agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:00:02 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:01:27 <MichaelC> regrets: Denis_Boudreau, Laura_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Kelly_Ford, Ben_Caldwell
15:02:19 <janina>  zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steve_Faulkner, Eric_Carlson, Michael_Cooper, Janina
15:04:07 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:04:36 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton
15:04:36 <Zakim> +Paul_Cotton; got it
15:05:47 <jongunderson> jongunderson has joined #html-a11y
15:06:16 <Zakim> +??P24
15:06:27 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P24 is Jon_Gunderson
15:06:27 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson; got it
15:07:54 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:08:49 <Zakim> +Rich
15:08:59 <jongunderson> JS: Action review
15:09:27 <jongunderson> MC: Action 20
15:09:44 <MichaelC> close action-20
15:09:44 <trackbot> ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element closed
15:09:48 <jongunderson> MC: I pinged WC she dug up good stuff and the action will be closed soon
15:10:07 <jongunderson> JS: Is she on time with july dilivery
15:10:28 <jongunderson> MC: She has a new job and Microsoft
15:10:37 <jongunderson> MC: Hopefully will be on time
15:10:46 <richardschwerdtfe> s/and Microsoft/at Microsoft/
15:10:49 <jongunderson> MC: A number of other actions with extended time lines
15:10:57 <jongunderson> JS: Sub team reports
15:11:33 <jongunderson> JS: Technically we do not have a canvas sub team, since the proposal was send to the HTML5 
15:12:13 <jongunderson> JS: CMN has now a counter proposal, some people think is compatible with current proposal, additions could be considered counter proposals
15:12:28 <jongunderson> JS: Some people are making progress pulling the two together
15:12:47 <jongunderson> JS: It might lead to an improved proposal, this is my guess at least
15:13:20 <jongunderson> JS: Lets be clear it is not in the hands of the task force, even though discussion is using the same teleconference slot
15:13:54 <jongunderson> JS: Things don't usually get attention until the end
15:13:57 <jongunderson> I am mutted
15:14:12 <jongunderson> JS: Media sub team has survey out
15:14:33 <jongunderson> JS: The biggest issue is the user requirements, so people can grok what we are saying
15:14:58 <jongunderson> JS: Media accessibility is not necessarily the expertise of many of the current members
15:15:19 <jongunderson> JS: Media accessibility has a long history starting in television and radio broadcasting
15:15:34 <jongunderson> JS: We are trying to clean up the document to more clearly state the requirements
15:16:04 <jongunderson> JS: We are hoping the clarification will setup a path to HTML5 media accessibility
15:16:29 <jongunderson> JS: Looking at federal requirements to develop must or shoulds in the document
15:16:54 <jongunderson> JS: The big issues are technologies for meeting accessibility SRT, SMIL .....
15:17:04 <jongunderson> JS: Any questions on that so far
15:17:26 <chaals> [my canvas proposal: It is nominally compatible but is proposed as an alternative so that we don't ask people to choose which one of two things they should do]
15:17:40 <jongunderson> JS: We ran a time survey to find a better time to meet
15:18:11 <jongunderson> JS: Laura cannot meet at this time, the Europe/USA time differences making finding a time difficult
15:18:21 <jongunderson> JS: The survey seems to be inconlusive
15:18:26 <janina> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/44061/20100617_meeting-time/results
15:18:26 <Mike^Splif> Zakim, call Mike
15:18:26 <Zakim> ok, Mike^Splif; the call is being made
15:18:28 <Zakim> +Mike
15:19:02 <jongunderson> JS: I don; think we can make a decision here, since we do not have many people atending
15:19:18 <MikeSmith> Zakim, Mike is me
15:19:18 <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
15:19:23 <jongunderson> JS: Right now it does not seem to make sense to move the time, We will continue to disucss
15:19:28 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:19:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:19:29 <jongunderson> MS: Hi
15:19:45 <jongunderson> MS: I agree the survey is not definitive
15:20:05 <jongunderson> MS: There might not be enough benefit to change
15:20:21 <jongunderson> JS: We want to have a better reason to change
15:20:51 <jongunderson> JS: Our current attempts have not proved to find a better time, any other comments?
15:20:53 <jongunderson> none
15:20:59 <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5
15:21:18 <jongunderson> JS: SF you have a proposal
15:21:40 <Stevef> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
15:21:54 <jongunderson> SF: The proposal is to text in regards to change the text of the ARIA integration into the HTML5 spec
15:22:32 <jongunderson> SF: The current text is openly restrictive and punitive on the use of ARIA 
15:22:59 <jongunderson> SF: Id did not provide guidance to conformance checkers 
15:23:47 <jongunderson> SF: We basically rewrote the whole thing, we are still addding the rationale and the descriptions, we are still working on the proposal
15:24:07 <jongunderson> SF: We will be showing the proposal to the sub team
15:24:32 <jongunderson> RS: We talked on Monday about itemizing each individual change...
15:25:10 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
15:25:10 <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
15:25:31 <jongunderson> JS: I think you are referring to M??? email , he may have a misunderstanding of the scope of work, he may be thinking it is a response to 85 and 109 it would seem to be too much
15:25:49 <jongunderson> JS: We will talk about this int he HTML5 call later today to clear up any misunderstandings?
15:25:59 <jongunderson> RS: Should we be on the call?
15:26:10 <jongunderson> JS: It is always good to have you on the call
15:26:28 <jongunderson> MS: I think the chairs can handle it
15:26:41 <jongunderson> MS: I'll let you decide who needs to be there
15:27:01 <jongunderson> RS: If I am needed I would like to be there, but if not I get the hour back
15:27:34 <jongunderson> JS: I think the confusion may be related to 85 and 109, but the proposal covers much more than 85 and 109
15:27:48 <jongunderson> SF: I cannot come to the call
15:28:17 <jongunderson> SF: We don't have a specific bug, the bugs need to be specific, is that the climate that we have the specitivity?
15:29:12 <jongunderson> MS: I am not completely familiar with the dialog, there should be bugzilla entry for the issue, you should probably file additional bugs if the proposal, change proposals need to speak to bugs
15:29:21 <jongunderson> JS: It only enhancing the problem
15:29:29 <jongunderson> JS: Is it 3.2.6?
15:29:32 <jongunderson> SF: yes
15:29:49 <jongunderson> JS: It might result in dozens of bugs being reported
15:29:58 <jongunderson> SF: We are talking about 100s of bugs
15:30:35 <jongunderson> JS: The problem is we have is the original section was originally drafted with out the benefit of review form this group
15:30:50 <jongunderson> JS: What is the good approach here?
15:31:26 <jongunderson> MS: I think we should table this as a problem and ask the working group for direction from the working group, so it is clear you uncovered a nest of snakes
15:32:03 <jongunderson> MS: the group can then decide what to what to do next and how it fits in the decision process
15:32:26 <jongunderson> MS: Just describe the scenario and ask what we should do
15:33:09 <jongunderson> RS: One of the problems you have is that Ian is not an accessibility expert, so we are basically making some corrections 
15:33:45 <jongunderson> JS: Ian knows HTML5, but does not have the accessibility knowledge, we are doing our best to be HTML5 capable
15:34:08 <jongunderson> JS: we need to get the accessibility domain knowledge into the document
15:34:41 <jongunderson> JS: The sub team has only been together since April, but we have been working on it for months before that
15:35:09 <jongunderson> JS: This proposal we are not expecting to change, but just some API mapping, a week or two away
15:35:44 <jongunderson> SF: This wokr has been on going, we working on this last year
15:36:32 <jongunderson> SF: we did this at the FTF last year, the whole process has been in the difference in the charts, there needs to be major changes form the accessibility stand point
15:37:10 <jongunderson> SF: What we have is differences in design philosophy
15:38:00 <jongunderson> JS: let me be clear that we do not expect the current proposal to change except by comments of this sub group, the specific API bindings will be completed within 2 weeks
15:38:50 <jongunderson> JS: I don't think anyone wants 100s of bugs filed, if there is a failure on my part to explain the situation that it is more than issue 85 and 109
15:39:02 <jongunderson> JS: I said these are place holders, there is more to it
15:39:18 <jongunderson> JS: Let's not make more of it until we have time to talk about it
15:40:12 <jongunderson> SF: The core of it is in the design philosophies and performance
15:40:27 <jongunderson> SF: When we come to moving that forward ...
15:41:05 <jongunderson> JS: I would like to hear you and RS talk about how decisions were made, this would be good for the group to hear
15:41:35 <jongunderson> JS: We have legitimate issue, but the taks force seems to be making progress 
15:41:57 <jongunderson> JS: RS can you give use a tour of how the thinking went?
15:42:03 <jongunderson> RS: SF can do that
15:42:13 <jongunderson> RS: SF is chair
15:42:41 <jongunderson> SF: we have the issue of performance issues of ROLE and STATE/PROPERTIES 
15:42:57 <jongunderson> SF: A particular role you need a particular state
15:43:10 <jongunderson> SF: ARIA live carte blanche
15:43:34 <jongunderson> SF: The current document has severe restrictions on where ARIA can be used
15:43:48 <jongunderson> SF: In some cases we agree, bt many other s we do not agree
15:44:19 <jongunderson> SF: There already creating widgets and controls out of other elements, that overrides the default roles
15:45:05 <jongunderson> SF: When they change the behaviors ARIA is need to describe that behavior to ATs
15:45:56 <jongunderson> SF: The conflict is when applying a behavior is prohibited in the HTML5 conformance that people should not use this, but there is no way to check to see if authors really use HTML5 as intended
15:47:00 <jongunderson> SF: Event handlers and CSS can be applied to any attributes, unless the element has strong rendering stlye, people can re-purpose for there own behavior, like P, DIV, SPAN
15:47:43 <jongunderson> SF: The philosophy in the current spec is that people will not do this, but there is nothing to stop them from violating this assumption 
15:48:10 <jongunderson> SF: ARIA is a way to override the default semantics
15:48:44 <jongunderson> RS: The HTML spec does not remove scripting and CSS from those elements, which is not realistic
15:49:00 <jongunderson> RS: For something the spec allows people to do 
15:49:14 <jongunderson> JS: I would say the spec does not prevent, rather than allow
15:50:00 <jongunderson> SF: The net result, is accessibility is built-in at the end or an add on, so we need ARIA to support this use case
15:50:15 <jongunderson> JS: We can't change deployed application over night
15:50:38 <jongunderson> RS: If we apply ARIA semantics otherwise AT would be confused
15:51:06 <jongunderson> SF: We need to override native semantics like checkboxes ...
15:51:27 <jongunderson> SF: It a role is found it will trigger an error
15:51:58 <jongunderson> SF: If they create a button out of a heading and the author thinks it is more important to convey the button behavior, they should be alloed to do it
15:52:32 <jongunderson> JS: This provides a device independent way to make web applications accessible
15:52:52 <jongunderson> JS: we need a succinct story on why this is important
15:53:03 <jongunderson> JS: Lets open this to the wider group
15:53:27 <jongunderson> RS: Before we go and work on the change proposal, we need to resolve the process
15:53:57 <jongunderson> MS: I have sent a message to my co-chairs that we want to bring this up
15:54:24 <jongunderson> JS: I sent a mail yesterday discussing this issue, thank you for sending the message
15:54:31 <jongunderson> JS: Anything more about this?
15:55:26 <jongunderson> SF: within the task force if we can them to respond to this soon 
15:55:31 <jongunderson> JS: Yes
15:55:47 <jongunderson> JS: We have this on the table
15:55:54 <jongunderson> zakim, draft minutes
15:55:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', jongunderson
15:56:16 <jongunderson> zakim, minutes draft
15:56:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'minutes draft', jongunderson
15:56:28 <jongunderson> zakim draft minutes
15:56:54 <jongunderson> JS: TPAC FTF meeting we do not have formal slot at this point
15:57:26 <jongunderson> JS: Many of us will be in the same building at the same time, sometimes things get done at FTF
15:57:44 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/TPAC/ TPAC meeting page
15:58:09 <jongunderson> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:58:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/24-html-a11y-minutes.html jongunderson
15:58:28 <jongunderson> JS: We need to have some issues we will discuss at FTF 
15:58:30 <Zakim> -Paul_Cotton
15:59:10 <jongunderson> JS: I hope that some of our current proposals will be resolved or there maybe some comments to respond to
15:59:33 <jongunderson> JS: I would like to use this time at TPAC, we will start working on an agenda
15:59:37 <jongunderson> JS: Questions?
16:00:21 <jongunderson> JS: I will be gone next week, this is totally different than technology, hope I get to play, but there will be a call MS will chair
16:00:31 <jongunderson> JS: any last thoughts?
16:00:37 <jongunderson> none
16:00:47 <jongunderson> JS: Tank you for coming
16:00:56 <Zakim> -Steve_Faulkner
16:00:57 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
16:00:57 <Zakim> -Janina
16:00:59 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:01:01 <Zakim> -Rich
16:01:06 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
16:01:23 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
16:03:39 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
16:03:39 <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
16:03:41 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:03:43 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.307.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Eric_Carlson, Janina, Steve_Faulkner, Paul_Cotton, Jon_Gunderson, Rich, MikeSmith
16:04:21 <MikeSmith> Zakim, Mike is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'Mike'
16:05:06 <MikeSmith> issue-105?
16:05:20 <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting
16:05:31 <MikeSmith> oops
16:05:44 <trackbot> ISSUE-105 does not exist
16:05:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:05:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
16:05:55 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:05:57 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:05:59 <trackbot> Date: 24 June 2010
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