15:05:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
15:05:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-forms-irc
15:05:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:05:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_Forms
15:05:05 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:05:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
15:05:06 <trackbot> Date: 23 June 2010
15:05:46 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM is me
15:05:46 <Zakim> sorry, wiecha, I do not recognize a party named '[IBM'
15:05:53 <pfennell> And the conference call code is?
15:06:23 <pfennell> Thank you :-)
15:06:30 <klotz> topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jun/0031.html
15:06:36 <klotz> klotz has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jun/0031.html (klotz)
15:07:55 <wiecha> Scribe: Wiecha
15:08:10 <wiecha> Topic: Vacation schedule
15:08:17 <wiecha> Leigh: pls be sure to fill out
15:08:30 <wiecha> Leigh: regrets for next three weeks
15:09:12 <wiecha> next week 2 out on vacation
15:09:18 <wiecha> Uli and Leigh
15:09:36 <wiecha> zakim, who is here?
15:09:36 <Zakim> I notice IA_XForms()11:00AM has restarted
15:09:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IBM], Leigh_Klotz
15:09:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, klotz, Zakim, ebruchez, pfennell, wiecha, trackbot
15:09:44 <pfennell> Sorry, I'm still having trouble dialing in, I'll be with you in a minute, or two...
15:09:49 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM is wiecha
15:09:49 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
15:11:09 <ebruchez> all, I will join in a few minutes
15:12:03 <nick> nick has joined #forms
15:12:18 <nick> zakim, code?
15:12:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
15:13:05 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:17:36 <pfennell> It's all going wrong for me today, either I get disconnected or it won't accept the passcode : 93676
15:17:56 <wiecha> yes, that's the code
15:18:57 <pfennell> I had this problem last week but it let me in eventually. No joy yet today.
15:21:00 <Zakim> + +44.782.483.aaaa
15:21:21 <nick> zakim, mute me
15:21:21 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
15:21:28 <nick> zakim, unmute me
15:21:28 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted
15:22:22 <wiecha> Topic: Mediawiki
15:22:23 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jun/0003.html
15:22:41 <wiecha> converts to XML format
15:22:49 <wiecha> can pipe through XSLT to spec XML
15:22:58 <wiecha> need conventions to use in wiki markup -- references etc
15:23:33 <Zakim> + +1.650.515.aabb
15:23:47 <wiecha> Action: Charlie Wiecha to propose subset of spec XML to use in the wiki
15:23:47 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
15:23:55 <nick> zakim, who is here
15:23:55 <Zakim> nick, you need to end that query with '?'
15:24:03 <nick> zakim, who is here?
15:24:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see wiecha, Leigh_Klotz, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, +44.782.483.aaaa, +1.650.515.aabb
15:24:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see nick, RRSAgent, klotz, Zakim, pfennell, wiecha, trackbot
15:24:37 <wiecha> Charlie: think we want to be fairly limited in the profile of spec xml to cover
15:24:43 <wiecha> Leigh: right, just start by defining the scope
15:25:47 <wiecha> Leigh: could use XML directly in the wiki
15:25:56 <wiecha> Charlie: probably wouldn't be nice w/o validation
15:27:19 <wiecha> Topic: XBL2
15:27:20 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Feb/0001.html
15:27:36 <wiecha> Leigh: reporting on status from our own use for control definitions
15:28:24 <wiecha> we're not using the parameter enhancements but taking XBL as template then generating a transcoded XBL to include parameters directly
15:28:36 <wiecha> have asked to look at Orbeon extensions
15:28:53 <wiecha> in any event our work is not specific to XForms
15:29:33 <wiecha> Charlie: so is XBL a design-time thing?
15:29:38 <wiecha> Leigh: yes, as a macro language
15:30:22 <wiecha> Erik: XBL has template language, more limited than XSLT, but is live
15:30:40 <wiecha> so if the DOM mutates then changes are applied incrementally
15:31:06 <wiecha> also provides visibility control - shadow DOMs and mapping between outside and shadow tree
15:31:13 <wiecha> communicate through events
15:31:32 <wiecha> so not just a matter of expanding the templates
15:31:48 <wiecha> we have tried to use only XSLT for reusable components
15:32:06 <wiecha> this template-only approach has limitations, e.g. author of component should be able to use IDs which are not visible
15:32:18 <wiecha> some aspects of the component should be private, encapsulated
15:34:17 <wiecha> Erik: we've had to go further than the XBL2 spec to support private visibility and another level not in the spec which allows control to surface some markup into the outer scope
15:35:14 <wiecha> Charlie: I think there might be something in the spec about content merging
15:36:20 <wiecha> Charlie: might schedule some time at the F2F to talk about Forms WG relationship to XBLw
15:36:27 <wiecha> s/XBLw/XBL2
15:36:35 <wiecha> Leigh: would be good to have a profile of XBL2 we can use
15:36:47 <wiecha> need something simpler and understandable
15:37:38 <wiecha> Erik: not sure XBL2 is going anywhere...better than XBL1 but has quirks, poor template language
15:37:54 <wiecha> doesn't help us with features more proper to XForms
15:38:20 <wiecha> e.g. create a component like xf:input but has these new features
15:38:35 <wiecha> need to reproduce aspects of the original control
15:39:46 <wiecha> need for lots of coding in the control, variables, possibly local instance
15:40:12 <wiecha> lots of boilerplate code that's required...we may have some patterns from a forms perspective that we could build on commonly
15:40:36 <wiecha> Leigh: through standard libraries?
15:40:48 <wiecha> Erik: maybe using XBL inheritance
15:41:07 <wiecha> could provide standard base XForms binding or series of them which define our behavior
15:41:17 <wiecha> then extend those for the various controls and other elements
15:42:56 <wiecha> Charlie: I'm doing something similar in Dojo using inheritance and mixins to existing Dojo form widgets
15:43:25 <wiecha> Leigh: I think it's promising approach for components
15:44:41 <wiecha> Leigh: we should publish at least a Note or better a Rec-track document on this
15:46:27 <wiecha> at least from a templating approach...i.e. not requiring XBL support on the client
15:47:50 <wiecha> Charlie: not sure it's enough to do this w/o runtime support on the client
15:48:09 <wiecha> Leigh: think there's value short of full XSLT but requires minimum runtime support
15:48:58 <wiecha> Mozilla css matching rules is how XForms loads
15:49:31 <wiecha> Erik reports that this runtime matching is not required
15:50:54 <wiecha> Erik: the fact we're not currently doing dynamic expansion doesn't mean we're not interested
15:51:43 <wiecha> important to be able to change control appearances after the page is loaded, but our first requirement is for reusable components
15:52:20 <wiecha> so reusability was first requirement and then second use runtime type or @appearance to pick proper binding
15:52:46 <wiecha> but just having a component model for static templating is useful by itself
15:53:26 <wiecha> server vs. client is an implementation detail...could do it on the client
15:53:50 <nick> zakim, mute me
15:53:50 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
15:54:19 <wiecha> Leigh: think there are two levels here
15:54:32 <wiecha> would like to get our experience to date written up
15:54:49 <wiecha> runtime behavior fits well with XForms behavior but is separable issue
15:54:57 <wiecha> e.g. two levels of compliance or spec
15:56:07 <klotz> two ways of doing output bound to date: 
15:56:16 <klotz> 1. xforms: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/XForms/Formatting_a_date
15:56:32 <klotz> 2. xforms+xbl1: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:XForms/Formatting_a_date
15:56:42 <wiecha> Erik: dynamic mapping could also be a function of CSS classes 
15:57:23 <wiecha> Erik: attribute setting also propagates to attributes and content inside the shadow tree
16:02:15 <wiecha> Action: Charlie Wiecha to look at JS implementations of XBL2
16:02:15 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie
16:02:16 <nick> http://code.google.com/p/xbl2/
16:03:18 <wiecha> Leigh: next steps: document experience from Erik, Charlie to fill in requirements from Dojo widget component model
16:03:30 <wiecha> Charlie: should tee this up for F2F discussion
16:03:50 <wiecha> ...or sooner :-)
16:04:10 <nick> we could have a longer call on XBL2
16:04:28 <Zakim> - +44.782.483.aaaa
16:04:29 <Zakim> -wiecha
16:04:29 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
16:04:30 <Zakim> - +1.650.515.aabb
16:04:40 <klotz> +1
16:04:51 <wiecha> actions?
16:04:54 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:04:55 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:04:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Leigh_Klotz, [IBM], wiecha, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, +44.782.483.aaaa, +1.650.515.aabb
16:05:06 <wiecha> zakim, bye
16:05:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
16:05:14 <wiecha> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-forms-minutes.html wiecha
16:05:18 <wiecha> rrsagent, bye
16:05:18 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-forms-actions.rdf :
16:05:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Charlie Wiecha to propose subset of spec XML to use in the wiki [1]
16:05:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-forms-irc#T15-23-47
16:05:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Charlie Wiecha to look at JS implementations of XBL2 [2]
16:05:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-forms-irc#T16-02-15