IRC log of CSS on 2010-06-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:07:14 [RRSAgent]
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15:07:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:10:26 [Curt`]
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15:51:32 [dethbakin]
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15:53:50 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
15:53:51 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:54:02 [plinss]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:54:35 [oyvind]
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15:55:18 [sylvaing]
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15:56:43 [glazou]
hi plinss
15:56:57 [plinss]
15:58:25 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
15:58:46 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:58:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.216.aaaa
15:59:05 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa has plinss
15:59:05 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
15:59:10 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
15:59:12 [glazou]
Zakim, aaa has glazou
15:59:12 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:59:16 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa has galzou
15:59:16 [Zakim]
+galzou; got it
15:59:21 [glazou]
15:59:34 [glazou]
Zakim, galzou is me
15:59:34 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'galzou'
15:59:43 [plinss]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.858.216.aaaa
15:59:44 [Zakim]
+1.858.216.aaaa has galzou
15:59:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aabb
15:59:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aacc
16:00:02 [tabatkins]
Zakim, aacc is me.
16:00:02 [Zakim]
+tabatkins; got it
16:00:08 [Zakim]
16:00:17 [dethbakin]
Zakim, Apple has dethbakin
16:00:17 [Zakim]
+dethbakin; got it
16:00:27 [bradk]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:00:27 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:00:28 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is [plinss]
16:00:29 [Zakim]
+[plinss]; got it
16:00:38 [plinss]
zakim, [plinss] has glazou
16:00:38 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:00:44 [plinss]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [plinss], bradk, tabatkins, [Apple]
16:00:46 [Zakim]
[plinss] has glazou
16:00:47 [Zakim]
[Apple] has dethbakin
16:01:31 [Zakim]
16:01:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aadd
16:01:46 [sylvaing]
Zakim, aadd is sylvaing
16:01:47 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:01:50 [glazou]
Zakim, aabb is bradk
16:01:50 [Zakim]
sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:02:10 [glazou]
Zakim, your sick bridges turn you mad
16:02:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'your sick bridges turn you mad', glazou
16:02:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aaee
16:02:56 [bradk]
Za-kim has me, unless Tab and I got ourselves mixed up (same area code appearing at about same time)
16:02:59 [smfr]
Zakim, aaee is me
16:02:59 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:03:41 [glazou]
sylvaing: almost turned JSCSSP into a CSS 3 validator...
16:04:38 [tabatkins]
zakim, mute tabatkins
16:04:38 [Zakim]
tabatkins should now be muted
16:04:53 [tabatkins]
zakim, unmute tabatkins
16:04:53 [Zakim]
tabatkins should no longer be muted
16:05:07 [sylvaing]
glazou: we need eCSSxtender to use your parser. Darn thing uses regex <shudder>
16:05:13 [bradk]
16:05:31 [glazou]
sylvaing: yeah, I am implementing my own when I save a stylesheet :-)
16:06:01 [glazou]
but no solution for inline styles still rendering engines use a serialized version of inline styles there
16:06:25 [tabatkins]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:06:41 [Zakim]
16:07:12 [tabatkins]
glazou: Elika, test suite status?
16:07:30 [szilles]
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16:07:41 [tabatkins]
fantasai: Status is we published alpha 3 last week. There's a bunch of moz tests that still need to be imported. Aaron says he's fixed the ones that were wrong, but there still might be one or two problems.
16:08:03 [tabatkins]
fantasai: I'll try and publish beta 1 next week, and we'll ask people to review them and make sure everyone is happy getting implementation reports based on them.
16:08:12 [tabatkins]
fantasai: We plan to get implementation reports in before the ftf.
16:08:23 [tabatkins]
fantasai: We plan to publish on a 3week cycle.
16:08:31 [tabatkins]
glazou: You tweeted something about reftests. Is that related?
16:08:37 [tabatkins]
fantasai: No, that was me working with moz stuff.
16:08:50 [tabatkins]
glazou: We have roughly 20 issues that are still undiscussed or lack a proposal.
16:09:16 [tabatkins]
glazou: I think the first one up is issue 53.
16:09:33 [tabatkins]
16:09:33 [plinss]
16:09:55 [tabatkins]
glazou: Elika, this is something you posted.
16:11:27 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: Elika's proposal sounds great, that glyphs and whitespace in pre aren't altered for justification purposes.
16:11:39 [tabatkins]
szilles: So that says that pre is more powerful than justification?
16:11:41 [tabatkins]
glazou: Yes.
16:12:09 [tabatkins]
fantasai: I don't quite understand why you can't justify pre-wrap, since it wraps, but I'd be fine with something that just said you can't stretch spaces.
16:12:28 [tabatkins]
szilles: I thought that if the spacing are there even with the wrap, you might have columns that you don't want to go jagged.
16:12:48 [sylvaing]
you don't want to mess up Bert's ASCII art. Or Hixie's cat.
16:13:01 [tabatkins]
szilles: It seems odd anyway to have both pre and justify on an element.
16:13:11 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: You may have an inline with pre embedded in a justified element.
16:13:21 [tabatkins]
16:13:25 [tabatkins]
^^^ proposed solution
16:14:54 [tabatkins]
fantasai: We usually write plaintext in monospace to get things to line up. But if you're using pre-wrap, maybe you're just writing paragraphs, and would be okay with justifying.
16:15:10 [tabatkins]
fantasai: pre-line is definitely wrong in the spec and should be fixed. But pre-wrap, I'm not sure of.
16:15:30 [tabatkins]
fantasai: One thing we could say is that you're not required to justify in preformatted elements.
16:15:41 [tabatkins]
fantasai: And then maybe in css3 text we can clarify it more precisely.
16:15:57 [tabatkins]
glazou: I like that.
16:16:16 [tabatkins]
bradk: Are the other text-align values okay?
16:16:32 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: According to the proposal on the table, no, you can't right-align pre text.
16:16:44 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: Nm, I'm misreading.
16:17:21 [tabatkins]
glazou: Any particular objections to the proposal on the table?
16:17:29 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: Elika has a possible objection for the pre-wrap text.
16:17:47 [tabatkins]
glazou: I'll ping Thunderbird people for an answer on what's acceptable to them, since it may affect email.
16:18:16 [tabatkins]
ACTION Daniel: Ping Thunderbird for their input on how the changes to the spec around pre/pre-wrap and justification may affect email.
16:18:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-240 - Ping Thunderbird for their input on how the changes to the spec around pre/pre-wrap and justification may affect email. [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-06-30].
16:19:30 [tabatkins]
fantasai: We can just say that justification isn't required.
16:19:40 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: I'd prefer not having it be impl-defined.
16:20:14 [tabatkins]
sylvaing: If the impls are disagreeing today, isn't it possible that email clients right now are having problems?
16:20:25 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: Only if they're mixing it with justification, which I doubt anyone is right now.
16:20:32 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next issue is 101, assigned to dbaron.
16:20:45 [tabatkins]
16:20:50 [tabatkins]
Next one for the wg is 107.
16:20:54 [tabatkins]
16:22:33 [tabatkins]
fantasai: The cases that this affects are where you're inheriting top/bottom/left/right, which almost nobody does.
16:22:46 [tabatkins]
fantasai: The proposal is to clarify the spec so that it's consistent with impls.
16:22:54 [tabatkins]
glazou: And all impls do the same thing?
16:23:24 [tabatkins]
fantasai: Yeah, me and aaron put some testcases.
16:23:57 [tabatkins]
fantasai: And this is such a minor issue that I doubt it matters what we actually do, so long as it's specified.
16:24:12 [tabatkins]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 107.
16:24:17 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next is issue 110, on Tab.
16:24:27 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: Haven't been able to write up a new proposal, sorry.
16:24:35 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next is issue 120.
16:25:02 [tabatkins]
fantasai: That'll take a while, since I have to go through the whole spec.
16:25:41 [tabatkins]
fantasai: There are like 4 issues on me that I need to deal with still.
16:25:45 [tabatkins]
glazou: Issue 138, on tab.
16:25:59 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: I wrote a proposal some time ago, I just didn't put it on the wiki. I've done that now.
16:26:18 [tabatkins]
glazou: Everyone, read that and review for decision soon.
16:26:56 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next is issue 145.
16:27:15 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: I recall us discussing that during the BIDI meeting.
16:27:47 [tabatkins]
fantasai: Proposal on the table addressing the issue I identified during the bidi meeting.
16:28:08 [tabatkins]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 145.
16:28:28 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next on the agenda is issue 149.
16:30:31 [tabatkins]
szilles: I don't see any possible way to have this resolve any other way.
16:30:42 [tabatkins]
glazou: At some point we have to decide, and I think the WG decided.
16:31:20 [tabatkins]
sylvaing: I think the only problem here is that Bert is the gatekeeper of the spec.
16:32:06 [fantasai]
fantasai: The issue we haven't discussed here is how this affects Media Queries
16:32:43 [tabatkins]
fantasai: Frex, on an iphone with a width 2in media query, when does it say yes/no?
16:34:38 [tabatkins]
sylvaing: For example, at first a webpage on the iphone is zoomed out and full-size, but when you pinch and zoom in, you dont' want the media query to suddenly change, since the webpage is still theoretically the same size.
16:34:45 [tabatkins]
glazou: Can we just resolve this on media queries?
16:35:20 [tabatkins]
sylvaing: If we accept the proposal now, we should go ahead and file an issue on media queries, since it's in CR right now.
16:35:37 [tabatkins]
glazou: So, objections on the proposal?
16:36:04 [tabatkins]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal to resolve issue 149.
16:36:34 [tabatkins]
RESOLVED: Issue on MQ about possible problems with Media Queries, physical dimenions, and screen sizes.
16:36:46 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next issue, 151.
16:37:06 [tabatkins]
fantasai: SVG wants their presentational attributes treated as presentational hints, not as ua stylesheet rules.
16:37:15 [tabatkins]
fantasai: But right now CSS defines otherwise.
16:37:47 [tabatkins]
fantasai: So this proposal alters the spec to allow XML languages to have their presentational attributes either be on the preshint level or the ua stylesheet level.
16:38:29 [tabatkins]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal to resolve issue 151.
16:38:34 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next is issue 153.
16:40:17 [tabatkins]
fantasai: If you're aligning a replaced alignment to the baseline, it's easy and defined. But for any other alignment, it's unclear which box of the replaced element should be used.
16:40:39 [tabatkins]
correction: inline non-replaced elements.
16:41:16 [dbaron]
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16:41:41 [tabatkins]
fantasai: I could try and spend more time on getting a proper definition, but I don't know if we could impls in time for CR.
16:41:50 [Zakim]
16:41:53 [tabatkins]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 153.
16:42:19 [tabatkins]
dbaron: I was just looking at IRC, and I don't think it needs to be undefined.
16:42:36 [tabatkins]
dbaron: I think it might have been clearer in CSS1, but I think it was well-defined somewhere.
16:42:45 [tabatkins]
RESOLVED: ignore previous resolution
16:43:02 [tabatkins]
ACTION David: Produce a proposal for issue 153.
16:43:02 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
16:43:02 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. hyatt, dbaron, dsinger2)
16:43:10 [tabatkins]
ACTION dbaron: Produce a proposal for issue 153.
16:43:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-241 - Produce a proposal for issue 153. [on David Baron - due 2010-06-30].
16:44:12 [glazou]
current issue is 158
16:44:34 [tabatkins]
16:44:55 [Zakim]
16:45:03 [tabatkins]
I think ^^^ is okay, but I'm still unsure of the exact desired rendering of a particular edge case, so I'm not sure if fantasai's suggestion fits or not.
16:45:05 [fantasai]
I can dig up the emails from when we originally came up with that issue
16:45:47 [tabatkins]
16:45:52 [fantasai]
16:47:06 [tabatkins]
glazou: I suggest you two take the discussion offline and clarify this between yourselves.
16:47:14 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next issue is 159, for elika.
16:48:01 [tabatkins]
fantasai: I haven't gotten to that yet.
16:48:28 [fantasai]
16:48:51 [tabatkins]
glazou: Issue 160. This should be easier to resolve.
16:49:17 [tabatkins]
glazou: The proposal seems to make perfect sense.
16:49:35 [tabatkins]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 160.
16:49:59 [fantasai]
Not done yet
16:50:01 [tabatkins]
glazou: Issue 166, on Elika.
16:50:14 [tabatkins]
glazou: Clarify different uses of "property value" and "component value", and make a diff.
16:51:08 [tabatkins]
fantasai: Haven't been able to get to that yet.
16:51:20 [tabatkins]
glazou: Issue 167, backslash escapes.
16:52:45 [tabatkins]
glazou: So, where's the end of a stylesheet, if you "end" one with a backslash?
16:53:05 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: There isn't interop, so whatever we decide should be okay.
16:53:36 [tabatkins]
tabatkins: I think it's just a matter of looking over Zack's proposed changes and ensuring they really do have only the minimal impact that he believes.
16:53:54 [tabatkins]
ACTION Daniel: Look over Zack's proposal for issue 167, ensure that it doesn't have any unwanted effects.
16:53:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-242 - Look over Zack's proposal for issue 167, ensure that it doesn't have any unwanted effects. [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-06-30].
16:54:01 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next issue, 170.
16:54:44 [tabatkins]
glazou: dbaron has listed 5 possibilities to resolve it.
16:55:58 [tabatkins]
dbaron: 6, counting the "leave it explicitly undefined" case.
16:56:04 [tabatkins]
bradk: Is there any interop on this?
16:58:20 [tabatkins]
ACTION Tab: Write some tests for issue 170, to see which option seems closest to impls.
16:58:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-243 - Write some tests for issue 170, to see which option seems closest to impls. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-30].
16:58:27 [tabatkins]
glazou: Next is issue 172.
16:59:04 [arronei]
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16:59:19 [Zakim]
16:59:41 [bradk]
DOH. I got dropped.
16:59:42 [tabatkins]
I don't have a problem with it. Table captions are rare in the first place, and table captions that would overflow are even more so.
17:00:17 [tabatkins]
ACTION Elika: Propose wording for issue 172.
17:00:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-244 - Propose wording for issue 172. [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-06-30].
17:00:18 [bradk]
I'm fine with the proposal
17:00:32 [Zakim]
17:00:43 [Zakim]
17:00:44 [Zakim]
17:00:46 [Zakim]
17:00:50 [smfr]
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17:00:52 [Zakim]
17:01:19 [glazou]
that was a very productive conf call I must say
17:01:29 [dethbakin]
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17:01:47 [glazou]
17:02:29 [bradk]
17:06:57 [Zakim]
17:07:02 [Zakim]
17:07:03 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:07:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, galzou, +1.650.275.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc, tabatkins, dethbakin, bradk, [plinss], glazou, fantasai, +1.206.324.aadd, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaee, smfr, SteveZ,
17:07:07 [Zakim]
... David_Baron
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18:31:50 [fantasai]
tabatkins: can you update the 2.1 issues list whenever you send in an issue proposal?
18:35:41 [tabatkins]
fantasai: Yeah, I need to remember to do so.
18:35:47 [tabatkins]
I'll update the issue list for 158 now.
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