15:07:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:07:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/23-CSS-irc
15:10:26 <Curt`> Curt` has joined #css
15:51:32 <dethbakin> dethbakin has joined #css
15:53:50 <plinss> zakim, this will be style
15:53:51 <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:54:02 <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
15:54:35 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:55:18 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
15:56:43 <glazou> hi plinss 
15:56:57 <plinss> hello
15:58:25 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
15:58:46 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:58:53 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aaaa
15:59:05 <plinss> zakim, aaaa has plinss
15:59:05 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
15:59:10 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
15:59:12 <glazou> Zakim, aaa has glazou 
15:59:12 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
15:59:16 <plinss> zakim, aaaa has galzou
15:59:16 <Zakim> +galzou; got it
15:59:21 <glazou> lol
15:59:34 <glazou> Zakim, galzou is me
15:59:34 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'galzou'
15:59:43 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.858.216.aaaa
15:59:44 <Zakim> +1.858.216.aaaa has galzou
15:59:51 <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aabb
15:59:56 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aacc
16:00:02 <tabatkins> Zakim, aacc is me.
16:00:02 <Zakim> +tabatkins; got it
16:00:08 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:00:17 <dethbakin> Zakim, Apple has dethbakin 
16:00:17 <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
16:00:27 <bradk> Zakim, aabb is me
16:00:27 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:00:28 <plinss> zakim, aaaa is [plinss]
16:00:29 <Zakim> +[plinss]; got it
16:00:38 <plinss> zakim, [plinss] has glazou
16:00:38 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:00:44 <plinss> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see [plinss], bradk, tabatkins, [Apple]
16:00:46 <Zakim> [plinss] has glazou
16:00:47 <Zakim> [Apple] has dethbakin
16:01:31 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:01:31 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aadd
16:01:46 <sylvaing> Zakim, aadd is sylvaing
16:01:47 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:01:50 <glazou> Zakim, aabb is bradk 
16:01:50 <Zakim> sorry, glazou, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:02:10 <glazou> Zakim, your sick bridges turn you mad
16:02:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'your sick bridges turn you mad', glazou
16:02:48 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaee
16:02:56 <bradk> Za-kim has me, unless Tab and I got ourselves mixed up (same area code appearing at about same time)
16:02:59 <smfr> Zakim, aaee is me
16:02:59 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
16:03:41 <glazou> sylvaing: almost turned JSCSSP into a CSS 3 validator...
16:04:38 <tabatkins> zakim, mute tabatkins
16:04:38 <Zakim> tabatkins should now be muted
16:04:53 <tabatkins> zakim, unmute tabatkins
16:04:53 <Zakim> tabatkins should no longer be muted
16:05:07 <sylvaing> glazou: we need eCSSxtender to use your parser. Darn thing uses regex <shudder>
16:05:13 <bradk> :)
16:05:31 <glazou> sylvaing: yeah, I am implementing my own when I save a stylesheet :-)
16:06:01 <glazou> but no solution for inline styles still rendering engines use a serialized version of inline styles there
16:06:25 <tabatkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:06:41 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:07:12 <tabatkins> glazou: Elika, test suite status?
16:07:30 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:07:41 <tabatkins> fantasai: Status is we published alpha 3 last week.  There's a bunch of moz tests that still need to be imported.  Aaron says he's fixed the ones that were wrong, but there still might be one or two problems.
16:08:03 <tabatkins> fantasai: I'll try and publish beta 1 next week, and we'll ask people to review them and make sure everyone is happy getting implementation reports based on them.
16:08:12 <tabatkins> fantasai: We plan to get implementation reports in before the ftf.
16:08:23 <tabatkins> fantasai: We plan to publish on a 3week cycle.
16:08:31 <tabatkins> glazou: You tweeted something about reftests.  Is that related?
16:08:37 <tabatkins> fantasai: No, that was me working with moz stuff.
16:08:50 <tabatkins> glazou: We have roughly 20 issues that are still undiscussed or lack a proposal.
16:09:16 <tabatkins> glazou: I think the first one up is issue 53.
16:09:33 <tabatkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jun/0227.html
16:09:33 <plinss> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-53
16:09:55 <tabatkins> glazou: Elika, this is something you posted.
16:11:27 <tabatkins> tabatkins: Elika's proposal sounds great, that glyphs and whitespace in pre aren't altered for justification purposes.
16:11:39 <tabatkins> szilles: So that says that pre is more powerful than justification?
16:11:41 <tabatkins> glazou: Yes.
16:12:09 <tabatkins> fantasai: I don't quite understand why you can't justify pre-wrap, since it wraps, but I'd be fine with something that just said you can't stretch spaces.
16:12:28 <tabatkins> szilles: I thought that if the spacing are there even with the wrap, you might have columns that you don't want to go jagged.
16:12:48 <sylvaing> you don't want to mess up Bert's ASCII art. Or Hixie's cat.
16:13:01 <tabatkins> szilles: It seems odd anyway to have both pre and justify on an element.
16:13:11 <tabatkins> tabatkins: You may have an inline with pre embedded in a justified element.
16:13:21 <tabatkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0457.html
16:13:25 <tabatkins> ^^^ proposed solution
16:14:54 <tabatkins> fantasai: We usually write plaintext in monospace to get things to line up.  But if you're using pre-wrap, maybe you're just writing paragraphs, and would be okay with justifying.
16:15:10 <tabatkins> fantasai: pre-line is definitely wrong in the spec and should be fixed.  But pre-wrap, I'm not sure of.
16:15:30 <tabatkins> fantasai: One thing we could say is that you're not required to justify in preformatted elements.
16:15:41 <tabatkins> fantasai: And then maybe in css3 text we can clarify it more precisely.
16:15:57 <tabatkins> glazou: I like that.
16:16:16 <tabatkins> bradk: Are the other text-align values okay?
16:16:32 <tabatkins> tabatkins: According to the proposal on the table, no, you can't right-align pre text.
16:16:44 <tabatkins> tabatkins: Nm, I'm misreading.
16:17:21 <tabatkins> glazou: Any particular objections to the proposal on the table?
16:17:29 <tabatkins> tabatkins: Elika has a possible objection for the pre-wrap text.
16:17:47 <tabatkins> glazou: I'll ping Thunderbird people for an answer on what's acceptable to them, since it may affect email.
16:18:16 <tabatkins> ACTION Daniel: Ping Thunderbird for their input on how the changes to the spec around pre/pre-wrap and justification may affect email.
16:18:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-240 - Ping Thunderbird for their input on how the changes to the spec around pre/pre-wrap and justification may affect email. [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-06-30].
16:19:30 <tabatkins> fantasai: We can just say that justification isn't required.
16:19:40 <tabatkins> tabatkins: I'd prefer not having it be impl-defined.
16:20:14 <tabatkins> sylvaing: If the impls are disagreeing today, isn't it possible that email clients right now are having problems?
16:20:25 <tabatkins> tabatkins: Only if they're mixing it with justification, which I doubt anyone is right now.
16:20:32 <tabatkins> glazou: Next issue is 101, assigned to dbaron.
16:20:45 <tabatkins> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-101
16:20:50 <tabatkins> Next one for the wg is 107.
16:20:54 <tabatkins> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-107
16:22:33 <tabatkins> fantasai: The cases that this affects are where you're inheriting top/bottom/left/right, which almost nobody does.
16:22:46 <tabatkins> fantasai: The proposal is to clarify the spec so that it's consistent with impls.
16:22:54 <tabatkins> glazou: And all impls do the same thing?
16:23:24 <tabatkins> fantasai: Yeah, me and aaron put some testcases.
16:23:57 <tabatkins> fantasai: And this is such a minor issue that I doubt it matters what we actually do, so long as it's specified.
16:24:12 <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 107.
16:24:17 <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 110, on Tab.
16:24:27 <tabatkins> tabatkins: Haven't been able to write up a new proposal, sorry.
16:24:35 <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 120.
16:25:02 <tabatkins> fantasai: That'll take a while, since I have to go through the whole spec.
16:25:41 <tabatkins> fantasai: There are like 4 issues on me that I need to deal with still.
16:25:45 <tabatkins> glazou: Issue 138, on tab.
16:25:59 <tabatkins> tabatkins: I wrote a proposal some time ago, I just didn't put it on the wiki.  I've done that now.
16:26:18 <tabatkins> glazou: Everyone, read that and review for decision soon.
16:26:56 <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 145.
16:27:15 <tabatkins> tabatkins: I recall us discussing that during the BIDI meeting.
16:27:47 <tabatkins> fantasai: Proposal on the table addressing the issue I identified during the bidi meeting.
16:28:08 <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 145.
16:28:28 <tabatkins> glazou: Next on the agenda is issue 149.
16:30:31 <tabatkins> szilles: I don't see any possible way to have this resolve any other way.
16:30:42 <tabatkins> glazou: At some point we have to decide, and I think the WG decided.
16:31:20 <tabatkins> sylvaing: I think the only problem here is that Bert is the gatekeeper of the spec.
16:32:06 <fantasai> fantasai: The issue we haven't discussed here is how this affects Media Queries
16:32:43 <tabatkins> fantasai: Frex, on an iphone with a width 2in media query, when does it say yes/no?
16:34:38 <tabatkins> sylvaing: For example, at first a webpage on the iphone is zoomed out and full-size, but when you pinch and zoom in, you dont' want the media query to suddenly change, since the webpage is still theoretically the same size.
16:34:45 <tabatkins> glazou: Can we just resolve this on media queries?
16:35:20 <tabatkins> sylvaing: If we accept the proposal now, we should go ahead and file an issue on media queries, since it's in CR right now.
16:35:37 <tabatkins> glazou: So, objections on the proposal?
16:36:04 <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal to resolve issue 149.
16:36:34 <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Issue on MQ about possible problems with Media Queries, physical dimenions, and screen sizes.
16:36:46 <tabatkins> glazou: Next issue, 151.
16:37:06 <tabatkins> fantasai: SVG wants their presentational attributes treated as presentational hints, not as ua stylesheet rules.
16:37:15 <tabatkins> fantasai: But right now CSS defines otherwise.
16:37:47 <tabatkins> fantasai: So this proposal alters the spec to allow XML languages to have their presentational attributes either be on the preshint level or the ua stylesheet level.
16:38:29 <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal to resolve issue 151.
16:38:34 <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 153.
16:40:17 <tabatkins> fantasai: If you're aligning a replaced alignment to the baseline, it's easy and defined.  But for any other alignment, it's unclear which box of the replaced element should be used.
16:40:39 <tabatkins> correction: inline non-replaced elements.
16:41:16 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:41:41 <tabatkins> fantasai: I could try and spend more time on getting a proper definition, but I don't know if we could impls in time for CR.
16:41:50 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:41:53 <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 153.
16:42:19 <tabatkins> dbaron: I was just looking at IRC, and I don't think it needs to be undefined.
16:42:36 <tabatkins> dbaron: I think it might have been clearer in CSS1, but I think it was well-defined somewhere.
16:42:45 <tabatkins> RESOLVED: ignore previous resolution
16:43:02 <tabatkins> ACTION David: Produce a proposal for issue 153.
16:43:02 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David
16:43:02 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. hyatt, dbaron, dsinger2)
16:43:10 <tabatkins> ACTION dbaron: Produce a proposal for issue 153.
16:43:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-241 - Produce a proposal for issue 153. [on David Baron - due 2010-06-30].
16:44:12 <glazou> current issue is 158
16:44:34 <tabatkins> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jun/0124.html
16:44:55 <Zakim> -[Apple]
16:45:03 <tabatkins> I think ^^^ is okay, but I'm still unsure of the exact desired rendering of a particular edge case, so I'm not sure if fantasai's suggestion fits or not.
16:45:05 <fantasai> I can dig up the emails from when we originally came up with that issue
16:45:47 <tabatkins> http://dbaron.org/css/test/2007/0329-blog-examples/1
16:45:52 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2007JanMar/0538.html
16:47:06 <tabatkins> glazou: I suggest you two take the discussion offline and clarify this between yourselves.
16:47:14 <tabatkins> glazou: Next issue is 159, for elika.
16:48:01 <tabatkins> fantasai: I haven't gotten to that yet.
16:48:28 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-160
16:48:51 <tabatkins> glazou: Issue 160.  This should be easier to resolve.
16:49:17 <tabatkins> glazou: The proposal seems to make perfect sense.
16:49:35 <tabatkins> RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for resolving issue 160.
16:49:59 <fantasai> Not done yet
16:50:01 <tabatkins> glazou: Issue 166, on Elika.
16:50:14 <tabatkins> glazou: Clarify different uses of "property value" and "component value", and make a diff.
16:51:08 <tabatkins> fantasai: Haven't been able to get to that yet.
16:51:20 <tabatkins> glazou: Issue 167, backslash escapes.
16:52:45 <tabatkins> glazou: So, where's the end of a stylesheet, if you "end" one with a backslash?
16:53:05 <tabatkins> tabatkins: There isn't interop, so whatever we decide should be okay.
16:53:36 <tabatkins> tabatkins: I think it's just a matter of looking over Zack's proposed changes and ensuring they really do have only the minimal impact that he believes.
16:53:54 <tabatkins> ACTION Daniel: Look over Zack's proposal for issue 167, ensure that it doesn't have any unwanted effects.
16:53:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-242 - Look over Zack's proposal for issue 167, ensure that it doesn't have any unwanted effects. [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-06-30].
16:54:01 <tabatkins> glazou: Next issue, 170.
16:54:44 <tabatkins> glazou: dbaron has listed 5 possibilities to resolve it.
16:55:58 <tabatkins> dbaron: 6, counting the "leave it explicitly undefined" case.
16:56:04 <tabatkins> bradk: Is there any interop on this?
16:58:20 <tabatkins> ACTION Tab: Write some tests for issue 170, to see which option seems closest to impls.
16:58:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-243 - Write some tests for issue 170, to see which option seems closest to impls. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-30].
16:58:27 <tabatkins> glazou: Next is issue 172.
16:59:04 <arronei> arronei has joined #CSS
16:59:19 <Zakim> -bradk
16:59:41 <bradk> DOH. I got dropped.
16:59:42 <tabatkins> I don't have a problem with it.  Table captions are rare in the first place, and table captions that would overflow are even more so.
17:00:17 <tabatkins> ACTION Elika: Propose wording for issue 172.
17:00:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-244 - Propose wording for issue 172. [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-06-30].
17:00:18 <bradk> I'm fine with the proposal
17:00:32 <Zakim> -smfr
17:00:43 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:00:44 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:00:46 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:00:50 <smfr> smfr has left #css
17:00:52 <Zakim> -[plinss]
17:01:19 <glazou> that was a very productive conf call I must say
17:01:29 <dethbakin> dethbakin has left #css
17:01:47 <glazou> bye
17:02:29 <bradk> bye
17:06:57 <Zakim> -tabatkins
17:07:02 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:07:03 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:07:04 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, galzou, +1.650.275.aabb, +1.650.253.aacc, tabatkins, dethbakin, bradk, [plinss], glazou, fantasai, +1.206.324.aadd, sylvaing, +1.408.636.aaee, smfr, SteveZ,
17:07:07 <Zakim> ... David_Baron
17:44:21 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
18:21:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #CSS
18:31:50 <fantasai> tabatkins: can you update the 2.1 issues list whenever you send in an issue proposal?
18:35:41 <tabatkins> fantasai: Yeah, I need to remember to do so.
18:35:47 <tabatkins> I'll update the issue list for 158 now.
18:40:48 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
18:52:07 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
19:42:21 <plinss_> plinss_ has joined #css
20:16:27 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
20:16:35 <sylvaing> sylvaing has left #css
21:23:25 <nimbupani> nimbupani has joined #css
22:33:52 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
23:09:56 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css