13:00:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wam
13:00:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-wam-irc
13:00:37 <Marcos> Marcos has joined #wam
13:00:44 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
13:00:59 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
13:01:00 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
13:01:02 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010AprJun/1058.html
13:01:03 <ArtB> Chair: Art
13:01:05 <ArtB> Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference
13:01:18 <Zakim> + +1.479.524.aaaa
13:01:52 <Steven> Steven has joined #wam
13:02:14 <ArtB> Present: Art, Marcos, StevenP
13:02:16 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:02:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Art_Barstow, +1.479.524.aaaa
13:02:22 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:02:22 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:02:24 <Zakim> +Steven
13:02:26 <ArtB> zakim, aaaa is Marcos
13:02:26 <Zakim> +Marcos; got it
13:02:38 <ArtB> Regrets: Robin
13:04:33 <ArtB> Topic: Review and tweak agenda
13:04:38 <kenneth> kenneth has joined #wam
13:04:46 <ArtB> AB: yesterday I sent a draft agenda to the list ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010AprJun/1058.html ). Any change requests?
13:05:09 <ArtB> Topic: Announcements
13:05:14 <ArtB> AB: any short announcements?
13:05:21 <ArtB> Topic: Digital Signature spec
13:05:30 <ArtB> AB: later today we will discuss publishing a CR with the Team ( http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-digsig/ ). We have 1 hour for two specs.
13:06:17 <ArtB> AB: I expect most of the discussion to focus "what's changed?".
13:06:23 <Steven> zakim, code?
13:06:23 <Zakim> the conference code is 9231 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
13:06:51 <ArtB> AB: since CR#1 was published, we effectively applied two Change Requests: the first included moving from C14N 1.0 to 1.1 and some other fixes and the second change request fixed a few bugs and increased the spec's "testability".
13:07:21 <ArtB> AB: the changes between July 2009 CR and April 15 LCWD are briefly summarized in the status section ( http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-widgets-digsig-20100415/#status ) and more details can be found in the following thread ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010AprJun/0054.html ).
13:08:13 <ArtB> AB: hoping FH could lead that discussion
13:08:46 <ArtB> ... since FH isn't here now, I follow-up with him about the call
13:09:22 <ArtB> MC: yes, FH should be on the call to talk about those changes
13:09:35 <bryan_sullivan> bryan_sullivan has joined #wam
13:09:43 <ArtB> AB: the changes between the 15 April LCWD and 11 May LCWD are summarized in the 11 May LC ( http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-widgets-digsig-20100511/#changes-since-last-publication- ).
13:09:54 <bryan_sullivan> present+ bryan_sullivan
13:09:59 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
13:10:07 <ArtB> Present+ Bryan
13:10:35 <fjh> fjh has joined #wam
13:11:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:11:57 <ArtB> AB: while we wait for FH to join, any other issues or concerns re DigSig?
13:12:00 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
13:12:00 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
13:12:10 <ArtB> MC: I feel confident about this
13:12:50 <ArtB> AB: again the changes between July 2009 CR and April 15 LCWD are briefly summarized in the status section ( http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-widgets-digsig-20100415/#status ) and more details can be found in the following thread ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010AprJun/0054.html ).
13:13:56 <ArtB> FH: yes, I will be there
13:14:49 <ArtB> ... have any issues been raised?
13:14:53 <ArtB> AB: not that I know about
13:15:06 <ArtB> AB: anything else on digsig
13:15:25 <Zakim> -fjh
13:15:27 <ArtB> Present+ Frederick
13:15:44 <ArtB> Topic: view-mode Media Feature spec
13:16:28 <ArtB> AB: re today's CR ( http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2006/waf/widgets-vmmf/CR.html ) call with the Team, are there any concerns or issue?
13:16:56 <ArtB> AB: Robin is not likely to attend the call but Marcos agreed to take the lead
13:17:28 <ArtB> MC: I looked at the disposition of comments and don't see any issues
13:17:47 <ArtB> AB: anyone have concerns about the view-mode spec?
13:18:04 <ArtB> Topic: Packaging and Configuration spec
13:18:22 <ArtB> AB: Marcos added text re "Changes Since Last Publication" ( http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets/pub/#changes-since-last-publication ). Any comments?
13:19:03 <ArtB> SP: no concerns 
13:19:39 <ArtB> AB: we need to talk about Normative References and PR. The [Sniff] spec is a Normative Reference. Does this block us from publishing a PR?
13:20:10 <ArtB> AB: I want to understand if this is a problem?
13:20:21 <ArtB> SP: if it is a WIP we have a prob
13:20:57 <ArtB> AB: what is the process here?
13:21:18 <ArtB> SP: a normative ref should be in step with the spec to be published
13:21:27 <ArtB> ... it can be one step behind but only briefly
13:21:41 <ArtB> AB: the ref is: 
13:21:43 <ArtB> [[
13:21:47 <ArtB> [SNIFF]
13:21:48 <ArtB>     Media Type Sniffing. A. Barth and I. Hickson. IETF. November 5, 2010 (Work in Progress).
13:21:50 <ArtB> ]]
13:21:58 <Steven> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-mime-sniff-05
13:22:08 <ArtB> AB: what does this mean Steven?
13:22:27 <ArtB> SP: not sure about the status of this spec
13:22:46 <ArtB> AB: I don't know about the IETF process
13:23:05 <ArtB> SP: yes, I haven't referenced IETF WIPs so I don't know how this is handled
13:23:26 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with StevenP re the [Sniff] IETF reference in the widget packaging spec
13:23:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-561 - Work with StevenP re the [Sniff] IETF reference in the widget packaging spec [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-06-24].
13:24:37 <ArtB> AB: Marcos, are there any other references issue for P&C spec?
13:24:48 <ArtB> MC: Widget DigSig but that will soon be CR
13:25:05 <ArtB> ... CSS21 is still a CR
13:25:15 <ArtB> ... I think Sniff spec is the only issue
13:26:37 <ArtB> AB: we will wait to hear from the Team on how we deal with Sniff spec
13:26:44 <ArtB> Topic: Widget Interface spec
13:26:55 <ArtB> AB: The TWI spec ( http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-api/ ) has a Normative dependency on Web IDL. 
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13:27:08 <ArtB> ... and we also have no active Editor for Web IDL
13:27:34 <ArtB> MC: one idea is to use OMG IDL
13:27:42 <ArtB> ... that was used previously
13:27:50 <ArtB> ... we don't really need Web IDL
13:27:55 <ArtB> ... we can use prose instead
13:28:02 <ArtB> ... the interface is so simple
13:28:06 <kenneth> kenneth has joined #wam
13:28:16 <ArtB> ... In this case, TWI spec doesn't really win anything by using Web IDL
13:28:24 <ArtB> AB: I came to the same conclusion
13:28:43 <ArtB> ... my pref would be to not add a new ref but to update the spec directly
13:29:00 <ArtB> ... by that I mean do not reference OMG IDL
13:29:30 <ArtB> ... I noticed only 3 Web IDL refs: ReadONly, Supplemental, NoInterfaceObject
13:29:50 <ArtB> ... and I think we could simply cut-and-paste some definitions and hence not need the reference
13:30:03 <ArtB> MC: yes, I agree
13:30:15 <bryan_sullivan> +1
13:31:07 <ArtB> AB: we can create a new section that includes these defs and just explain that since Web IDL isn't ready, we copied the definitions we need
13:31:13 <ArtB> MC: yes, could do that
13:31:18 <Steven> q+ to talk about normative refs (when the time comes)
13:31:28 <ArtB> BS: yes, that makes sense to me
13:31:49 <ArtB> ... but we do need to address the Web IDL Editor issue
13:31:53 <ArtB> AB: yes, agree
13:32:23 <ArtB> AB: if we go that route to add definitions into the spec, will that require going back to LC?
13:32:59 <ArtB> ... I think the precedence we've followed to date is that if we just do a cut-and-paste, we haven't really changed anything that would affect an implementation
13:33:06 <ArtB> ... thus, no need to go back to LC
13:33:15 <ArtB> MC: sounds good
13:33:49 <ArtB> SP: I think that would be OK
13:34:00 <ArtB> ... I don't think it would change any software
13:34:07 <ArtB> ... so that's OK with me
13:34:10 <ArtB> MC: yes, agree
13:34:41 <ArtB> AB: so the consensus is that cutting and pasting definitions from Web IDL to the TWI spec would not require a new LC
13:35:16 <ArtB> SP: I talked to Ian Jacobs - don't make normative references to unstable materials
13:35:26 <ArtB> ... in this case, Sniff may change
13:35:34 <ArtB> ... thus it needs to be stable
13:35:50 <ArtB> MC: I would argue Sniff is already widely implemented
13:36:00 <ArtB> ... it has been part of the Web Platform for a long time
13:36:12 <ArtB> ... We can get some status from Adam 
13:36:32 <ArtB> ... I think it is good and matches reality
13:36:44 <ArtB> ACTION: Marcos determine the status of IETF's Sniff spec
13:36:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-562 - Determine the status of IETF's Sniff spec [on Marcos Caceres - due 2010-06-24].
13:37:23 <ArtB> SP: formally, CSS2.1 is also a problem case for Widget P&C spec
13:37:56 <ArtB> ... the mis-match must be brief
13:38:09 <ArtB> ... want the references to be at equal states
13:38:20 <ArtB> MC: P&C references CSS pixels
13:38:45 <ArtB> ... I don't think we want to copy that entire section of CSS2.1
13:39:27 <ArtB> ACTION: marcso work with ArtB and SteveP re P&C's reference to CSS2.1
13:39:27 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - marcso
13:40:37 <ArtB> AB: does anyone know the plan for CSS2.1 to go to PR?
13:40:46 <ArtB> MC: I don't know if it ever will go to PR
13:41:03 <ArtB> ... since it will need thousands of tests
13:41:18 <Marcos> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#length-units
13:41:30 <ArtB> ... we can copy some text re pixels
13:43:52 <ArtB> AB: I thought a spec could be parked in PR even though its refs were not yet in PR
13:44:00 <ArtB> SP: no, that's not the way it works
13:44:22 <ArtB> ... A person couldn't really vote on a spec if it is in PR if its refs were not stable
13:44:34 <ArtB> ... if a ref is not stable, it can still change
13:46:18 <ArtB> MC: we do have an "out" for P&C and CSS2.1 because CSS2.0 includes the identical text for pixels
13:48:07 <ArtB> AB: the Widget Interface normative refernces HTML5
13:48:24 <ArtB> ... so we'll need to think about that as well as Web Storage
13:48:43 <ArtB> AB: we also still have ISSUE-116 ( http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/116 ) open.
13:48:58 <ArtB> MC: nothing new to report on that
13:49:42 <ArtB> ... expect some progress next week
13:50:03 <ArtB> AB: last call for spec discussions for today ...
13:50:12 <ArtB> Topic: AOB
13:50:18 <ArtB> AB: Calls during the summer and summer holidays. In general, I don't want to have a call if lead Editor isn't available.
13:53:25 <Steven> Regrets for next week, 29 Jul, and the first three weeks of AUg
13:53:40 <Steven> s/AUg/Aug/
13:54:00 <ArtB> AB: make the next call July 1 
13:54:07 <ArtB> AB: re planning, roadmap, ToDos, etc., see the Action list and PubStatus page ( http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus#Widget_Specifications )
13:55:00 <ArtB> SP: we are still waiting for WARP PAG to conclude, right?
13:55:03 <ArtB> AB: yes
13:55:59 <ArtB> AB: anything else for today?
13:57:30 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2010/webapps/charter/
13:57:34 <lca> lca has joined #wam
13:59:24 <ArtB> MC: what about a widget conformace checker?
13:59:34 <ArtB> AB: if it is non-normative, we can publish it
13:59:38 <ArtB> SP: yes, agree
13:59:51 <ArtB> MC: OK, I may bring this up later
13:59:57 <ArtB> AB: that would be a great idea
14:00:14 <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
14:00:29 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:00:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-wam-minutes.html ArtB
14:00:48 <Zakim> -Steven
14:00:50 <Zakim> -Marcos
14:00:58 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
14:01:15 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
14:01:19 <Zakim> IA_WebApps(Widgets)9:00AM has ended
14:01:21 <Zakim> Attendees were Art_Barstow, +1.479.524.aaaa, Steven, Marcos, Bryan_Sullivan, fjh
14:07:40 <ArtB> zakim, bye
14:07:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wam
15:21:40 <Marcos> Marcos has joined #wam
15:34:28 <Steven> Art, ArtB?
15:34:38 <ArtB> Hi Steven
15:34:52 <Steven> Hi there. SO I'm sending the agenda to You, plh, Ralph, Marcos
15:34:56 <Steven> any one else?
15:35:03 <ArtB> Robin, Frederick
15:35:06 <Steven> OK
15:35:09 <Steven> thanks
15:35:12 <ArtB> thank you!
15:36:03 <Steven> Sent
15:38:45 <Steven> irc channel etc set up.
15:38:54 <Steven> Too early to tell Zakim yet
15:39:38 <ArtB> ok; tty in about 1hr + 20min :)
15:50:58 <ArtB> steven, I didn't receive the agenda
15:51:35 <ArtB> marcos, did you receive it?
15:58:47 <ArtB> OMG, spam filter grabbed it and 15-20 other non-junk emails!
15:59:20 <Steven> oog
15:59:59 <Steven> I had the reverse problem last week/this week: I was sending mails that were backing up at the server and not being sent
16:03:23 <Marcos> got it
16:12:15 <Marcos> whoa! chirpy fellow on public-webapps asking about widget updates :)
16:12:20 <Marcos> Might take that one offline
16:14:01 <ArtB> he's a Spy for a company that has IP related to Widget Updates and he's trying to drag you into their IP minefield
16:14:04 <ArtB> arguably
16:15:24 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
16:15:24 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-wam-actions.rdf :
16:15:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with StevenP re the [Sniff] IETF reference in the widget packaging spec [1]
16:15:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-wam-irc#T13-23-26
16:15:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Marcos determine the status of IETF's Sniff spec [2]
16:15:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-wam-irc#T13-36-44
16:15:24 <RRSAgent> ACTION: marcso work with ArtB and SteveP re P&C's reference to CSS2.1 [3]
16:15:24 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-wam-irc#T13-39-27