00:11:03 davidb has joined #html-a11y 00:16:51 silvia has joined #html-a11y 14:57:23 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y 14:57:23 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-irc 14:57:25 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:57:26 Zakim has joined #html-a11y 14:57:27 Zakim, this will be 2119 14:57:28 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:57:28 Date: 17 June 2010 14:57:38 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 14:57:54 regrets: Laura_Carlson,Kelly_Ford,Kenny_Johar,Silvia_Pfeiffer 14:58:08 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started 14:58:12 +Michael_Cooper 14:58:31 regrets: Martin_Kliehm, Kelly_Ford, Laura_Carlson 14:58:34 chair: Mike_Smith 14:58:39 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0162.html 14:58:47 +Gregory_Rosmaita 14:59:11 zakim, call janina 14:59:11 ok, janina; the call is being made 14:59:13 +Janina 15:00:28 Stevef has joined #html-a11y 15:00:40 +Cynthia_Shelly 15:00:54 i am not the soul of brevity 15:01:18 cyns has joined #html-a11y 15:01:19 whats the passcode? 15:01:25 2119 15:01:35 +Ben 15:01:36 +[IPcaller] 15:01:50 thought so didn't work first time 15:01:56 eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y 15:02:12 +Eric_Carlson 15:02:17 zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner 15:02:17 +Steve_Faulkner; got it 15:02:46 Note: I have to leave early today 15:03:25 jongunderson has joined #html-a11y 15:03:26 note that Martin _might_ be able to attend later on in the meeting 15:03:36 zakim, call Mike 15:03:37 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 15:03:37 +Mike 15:03:49 scribe: Ben 15:03:59 zakim, Mike is me 15:03:59 +MikeSmith; got it 15:04:01 agenda? 15:04:34 agenda+ Actions Review 15:04:41 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0162.html 15:04:46 agenda+ agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates 15:04:57 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:04:57 agendum 1. "Actions Review" taken up [from Ben] 15:05:05 agenda+ Drag & Drop follow-up 15:05:14 action-20? 15:05:14 ACTION-20 -- Wendy Chisholm to work with Charles to dig up history on column element -- due 2010-06-17 -- OPEN 15:05:14 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/20 15:05:17 agenda+ discussion about changing meeting time 15:05:21 action-20? 15:05:21 ACTION-20 -- Wendy Chisholm to work with Charles to dig up history on column element -- due 2010-06-17 -- OPEN 15:05:21 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/20 15:05:24 agenda+ bug triage 15:05:40 agenda+ New Business 15:06:37 action-20: MichaelC will ping Wendy 15:06:37 ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element notes added 15:06:55 action-20 due 2010-06-24 15:06:55 ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element due date now 2010-06-24 15:07:02 action-20: MichaelC to ping Wendy on plans 15:07:02 ACTION-20 Work with Charles to dig up history on column element notes added 15:07:18 action-47? 15:07:18 ACTION-47 -- Steve Faulkner to file a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 -- due 2010-06-16 -- OPEN 15:07:18 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/47 15:07:53 +??P11 15:08:09 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 15:08:10 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y 15:08:13 zakim, ??p11 jongunderson 15:08:13 I don't understand '??p11 jongunderson', jongunderson 15:08:21 zakim, ??p11 is jongunderson 15:08:21 +jongunderson; got it 15:08:33 kliehm has joined #html-a11y 15:08:40 action-47 due 2010-07-01 15:08:40 ACTION-47 File a bug with HTML 5 about making autocomplete consistent with ARIA, per comment 289 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/update?comment_id=289 due date now 2010-07-01 15:08:41 Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y 15:08:49 +Rich 15:08:59 action-48? 15:08:59 ACTION-48 -- John Foliot to synthesize comments and list questions -- due 2010-06-16 -- OPEN 15:08:59 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/48 15:09:13 apologies for the delay. having troubles dialing in here 15:09:53 ok, thanks. 15:10:15 i'll follow on irc 15:10:19 action-48: this came originally from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0124.html but has since been overcome by events 15:10:19 ACTION-48 Synthesize comments and list questions notes added 15:10:26 close action-48 15:10:27 ACTION-48 Synthesize comments and list questions closed 15:11:15 action-37? 15:11:15 ACTION-37 -- Cynthia Shelly to menu and command mappings due to subteam -- due 2010-05-25 -- OPEN 15:11:15 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/37 15:11:46 action-37: this is rolled into the deliverable for next week, sent a draft a few weeks ago 15:11:46 ACTION-37 menu and command mappings due to subteam notes added 15:11:55 cyns, thanks for sending me the command stuff you currently have to me for accesskey requirement comparison 15:12:26 close action-37 15:12:27 ACTION-37 menu and command mappings due to subteam closed 15:12:47 action-38? 15:12:47 ACTION-38 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles -- due 2010-05-18 -- OPEN 15:12:47 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/38 15:13:08 action-38: done already, going through final review 15:13:08 ACTION-38 review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles notes added 15:13:13 close action-38 15:13:13 ACTION-38 review additional HTML 5 input controls as to whether can be overriden by aria roles closed 15:13:36 action-40? 15:13:36 ACTION-40 -- Steve Faulkner to html4 interactive elements (form and links?) -- due 2010-05-18 -- OPEN 15:13:36 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/40 15:13:38 +kliehm 15:13:59 regrets- Martin_Kliehm 15:14:21 action-40: actual work has been done 15:14:21 ACTION-40 html4 interactive elements (form and links?) notes added 15:14:25 close action-40 15:14:25 ACTION-40 html4 interactive elements (form and links?) closed 15:15:03 zakim, close this item 15:15:03 agendum 1 closed 15:15:04 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:15:05 2. agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates [from Ben] 15:15:07 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:15:07 agendum 2. "agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates" taken up [from Ben] 15:15:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus 15:15:36 q? 15:15:46 MRanon_ has joined #html-a11y 15:15:58 JS: canvas subteam proposal is out, do we still need a canvas subteam? 15:16:23 canvas subgroup will be the ones who will field comments from wider HTML WG, right? 15:16:35 RI: we submitted our proposal, some comments from Opera after we signed off, may need to be dealt with at HTML WG level 15:16:55 s /RI:/RS: 15:17:01 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom 15:17:16 Improve image maps and use them to make canvas accessible 15:17:38 Marco_Ranon_ has joined #html-a11y 15:17:39 RS: not sure what the process is, does same sub-team process feedback on proposal? 15:18:02 dboudreau has joined #html-a11y 15:18:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0136.html 15:18:41 + +1.514.312.aaaa 15:18:47 q? 15:19:07 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0136.html Charles' Update on imagemap proposal for canvas 15:19:09 hi everyone, sorry i'm late 15:19:28 zakim, aaaa is Denis_Boudreau 15:19:28 +Denis_Boudreau; got it 15:19:29 MS: Chairs in HTML WG are not waiting on TF, but on proposal from Charles 15:20:42 q+ to ask about teleconference slots for subgroups 15:21:05 GR: Agreed that Charles will submit a counter proposal within HTML WG context. 15:21:55 http://www.w3.org/2010/06/10-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02 15:22:12 RS: Am willing to review it with members of the sub-team. In our best interest to monitor what is happening on the HTML side. In that respect, may be best for sub team to work on whatever comments that come in. 15:23:12 q+ to say that canvas subgroup will want to review chaals' imagemap proposal if advanced, but it is not the proposal that comes out of the TF 15:23:19 MS: From chairs perspective, there is no delay from task force. From TF perspective, no concerns if no counter proposal comes. 15:23:46 ack oe 15:23:46 oedipus, you wanted to say that canvas subgroup will want to review chaals' imagemap proposal if advanced, but it is not the proposal that comes out of the TF 15:23:53 MS: Seems like we have agreement on this. 15:23:59 ack MichaelC 15:23:59 MichaelC, you wanted to ask about teleconference slots for subgroups 15:24:15 ack mic 15:24:27 MC: Subgroups have a limited number of teleconference slots. Need to decide whether to extend them. 15:24:46 MS: Canvas slot still needed? 15:24:51 RS: Let's leave it open. 15:25:24 MS: Other teleconference slot decisions needed today? 15:25:37 MC: No, but need decisions fairly soon, can address on planning call. 15:25:48 zakim, close this item 15:25:48 agendum 2 closed 15:25:49 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:25:51 3. Drag & Drop follow-up [from Ben] 15:25:53 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:25:53 agendum 3. "Drag & Drop follow-up" taken up [from Ben] 15:25:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html 15:26:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html 15:26:12 http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes#item03 15:26:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0137.html 15:26:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0137.html 15:26:58 MS: Not a whole lot of response to latest message from Gez, one follow up from EC. 15:27:15 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0137.html Eric response to Gez' DragNDrop Follow-Up 15:27:29 [[ 15:27:30 The first thing we need is feedback from browser manufacturers to 15:27:31 determine if these events can be fired using the keyboard alone 15:27:31 resulting in an accessible workflow. 15:27:31 ] 15:27:58 MS: Not sure what to do on this, but would be useful to get feedback from M'Soft, Mozilla and Opera. 15:29:23 cyns has joined #html-a11y 15:29:37 fixed IRC. drag and drop URL again, please? 15:29:40 davidb: ↑ 15:29:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0133.html 15:30:47 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010May/0179.html Gez message from last month 15:30:57 gee I haven't thought about dragndrop for 200 years 15:31:50 dboudreau has joined #html-a11y 15:31:52 q? 15:32:21 MS: Unsure about next steps. 15:32:48 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/06/03-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03 Drag and Drop discussion from 2010-06-03 telecon 15:33:04 JS: Gez isn't able to participate on the call, but needs feedback in order to develop proposals. 15:33:17 MS: Next step is to file a bug that would be used to file change proposals. 15:33:58 MS: There is some sense of urgency on these issues as we'd like to get to last call. Should try to get bugs filed within next several weeks. 15:34:29 GR: Looking at minutes from earlier this month. We're at the same place we were then. 15:34:47 MC: We do have a placeholder bug on this, but it is marked as "needs info" 15:35:13 CS: Just sent request to IE team, hoping for feedback in a few days. 15:35:46 MS: This is something to keep checking on so that it doesn't slip between the cracks. 15:36:03 zakim, close this item 15:36:03 agendum 3 closed 15:36:04 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:36:05 4. discussion about changing meeting time [from Ben] 15:36:10 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:36:10 agendum 4. "discussion about changing meeting time" taken up [from Ben] 15:36:34 MS: JS, MC and I had a discussion about changing the meeting time to make it possible for some other to attend. 15:37:36 good idea, Laura's presence would definitely be an asset 15:37:57 q? 15:38:34 after PF call may be a better time 15:39:03 1 PM boston time would be fine for GJR 15:39:18 MS: No other specific suggestions for time. 15:39:40 s/1 PM boston time would be fine for GJR/1 PM Boston time on Wednesdays would be fine for GJR/ 15:39:42 CS: would be nice to have a day between meetings to work on proposals. 15:39:55 JS: Should we run a survey on it? 15:40:47 MC: Suggest we do a survey, want to be sure to reach people who can't make current time. 15:41:01 +1 for survey 15:42:05 zakim, close this item 15:42:05 agendum 4 closed 15:42:06 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:42:07 5. bug triage [from Ben] 15:42:10 zakim, take up agendum 5 15:42:10 agendum 5. "bug triage" taken up [from Ben] 15:42:37 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0140.html latest "Weekly Resolved & Rejected Bugs Report" 15:43:41 MC: Suggest that we should first triage bugs Laura recommends as formal task force bugs. Second, those that have had a recent status change. 15:44:16 Topic: Bug 9871: "Provide normative advice to conformance checkers about 15:44:18 use of onevent handler attributes" 15:44:27 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9871 15:45:14 MS: No response on this yet. 15:46:02 q? 15:46:11 SF: Has been some conversations, some concerns with it. 15:46:20 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:46:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith 15:46:42 RS: Problem occurred because an element has been repurposed. 15:48:16 SF: Currently, within the spec, if you do something to change default semantic, it is an error, but not one that will be reported. So what is essentially happening is that now we've got a way to pick up the error. For the most part, you may dissuade people from using ARIA in the end. 15:48:29 CS: ... because easiest fix is going to be to remove the ARIA 15:48:49 EC: is it also an error to add an event listener through script? 15:49:25 SF: Yes, but it's an undetectable error unless the generated code is put through a conformance checker. 15:50:41 CS: We would prefer that these things not be flagged as errors. What we're trying to make clear is that ARIA makes it easy to find the error, but use of ARIA is not the error. Concerned that this will discourage use of ARIA. The thing ARIA was designed to fix is the misuse of event handlers. 15:51:20 CS: Prefer that we have a set of allowed ARIA overrides. If any of them are used, there would be no warning. We are getting some pushback on that. 15:51:54 EC: Concerns about strategy of filing bugs to make this point. 15:53:35 MS: Not something that current validators are providing warnings about. Adding errors like this is not something to be taken lightly. 15:54:25 q? 15:54:28 SF: Result would be annoyance errors, not useful for developers. What I want to know is whether I'm using ARIA correctly. 15:55:37 For elements that are typically repurposed, I don't want to be told I've done something wrong. 15:55:45 JS: Seems to be strong opinion here. 15:56:03 MS: Will go ahead and add task force keyword and a link to today's minutes to this bug. 15:56:37 Topic: Bug 9872: "Trigger a conformance error when javascript is included 15:56:39 in href attribute" 15:56:49 -> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9872 15:58:00 I also think it should trigger an error 15:58:54 +1 15:59:20 SF: There are certain things that are conformance errors, but can't be checked. Let's find ways to repair the damage that these errors may do rather than try to block legitimate uses. 16:00:20 q? 16:00:32 MS: These two issues seem to go hand-in-hand. No agreement for a resolution at this point, but seems like an issue we want to eventually take a position on. Will add keyword on this one too. 16:01:25 ES: I want to go on record to say that I think that filing bugs like this is a problem. It dilutes the authority of the group when there are bugs that we really feel strongly about. (from perspective of someone outside the group) 16:01:51 CS: Can see why you're saying that. This is sort of a fallback position. Either don't flag the ARIA or, if you're going to flag the ARIA, flag the thing that the ARIA is fixing. 16:02:27 MS: Not clear from looking at bug what the context is. May be better to file one bug to say "don't flag the ARIA." 16:03:44 EC: Don't file specious bugs to make a point because people won't get the point. 16:04:05 -kliehm 16:04:06 if this really isn't an important issue, then I think it's counter-productive. 16:04:15 Laura has joined #html-a11y 16:04:22 JS: Think the sense is that it is an important issue because it could discourage proper use of ARIA. 16:05:36 MS: I think we've got everything on record here and that we do understand each other. Will return to discussion of this in TF. Don't think we'll get resolution today. Perhaps we should have some discussion on when we should take up issues like this of if a higher bar is needed. 16:05:38 -jongunderson 16:05:56 zakim, close this item 16:05:56 agendum 5 closed 16:05:57 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 16:05:58 6. New Business [from Ben] 16:06:08 -Rich 16:06:25 MS: Adjourned for this week. Same time next week. 16:06:28 [adjourned] 16:06:29 -Michael_Cooper 16:06:29 i would if language wasn't such an issue, sorry :( 16:06:33 -Gregory_Rosmaita 16:06:34 later 16:06:35 -Cynthia_Shelly 16:06:36 Zakim, drop me 16:06:37 -Steve_Faulkner 16:06:38 janina has left #html-a11y 16:06:39 -Janina 16:06:40 bye 16:06:41 MikeSmith is being disconnected 16:06:45 -MikeSmith 16:06:47 -Eric_Carlson 16:06:51 -Ben 16:06:54 -dboudreau 16:06:58 rrsagent, create minutes 16:06:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-minutes.html Ben 16:07:31 zakim, please part 16:07:31 Zakim has left #html-a11y 16:07:32 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Cynthia_Shelly, Ben, Eric_Carlson, Steve_Faulkner, MikeSmith, jongunderson, Rich, kliehm, 16:07:35 ... +1.514.312.aaaa, Denis_Boudreau 16:07:40 rrsagent, make minutes 16:07:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/17-html-a11y-minutes.html Ben 16:08:59 rrsagent, please part 16:08:59 I see no action items