14:02:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
14:02:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-irc
14:02:41 <Vlad> rrsagent, bookmark
14:02:41 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-irc#T14-02-41
14:03:01 <tiro_j> tiro_j has joined #webfonts
14:03:53 <erik_> trying to connect
14:04:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
14:04:19 <jdaggett> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:04:27 <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I don't know what conference this is
14:04:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see tiro_j, RRSAgent, erik_, sergeym, jfkthame, jdaggett, cslye, tal, Vlad, sylvaing, trackbot
14:06:00 <Vlad> Zakim, list
14:06:00 <Zakim> I see Team_W3M()8:00AM, IA_Fonts()10:00AM, UW_DAP()10:00AM active
14:06:01 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are IA_MFWG()3:00AM, SW_CG()9:00AM, WAI_(AGE TF)9:30AM, Team_(xhtml)13:45Z
14:06:27 <Vlad> Zakim, this conference is IA_Fonts
14:06:27 <Zakim> ok, Vlad; that matches IA_Fonts()10:00AM
14:06:44 <Vlad> Zakim, who is on the phone
14:06:44 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Vlad
14:07:10 <Vlad> Zakim, who is here?
14:07:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.781.970.aaaa, +1.443.895.aabb, [IPcaller], +1.510.816.aacc, +1.425.882.aadd, +1.250.668.aaee, +1.206.324.aaff
14:07:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see tiro_j, RRSAgent, erik_, sergeym, jfkthame, jdaggett, cslye, tal, Vlad, sylvaing, trackbot
14:07:35 <jdaggett> zakim,  [IPcaller] is jdaggett
14:07:36 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
14:07:36 <erik_> still wrestling with phone, it hangs up after entering the access code.
14:09:22 <jfkthame> it seems like it's just not hearing me enter the code
14:09:27 <sylvaing> to attach your phone number: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
14:09:29 <jfkthame> it asks again, and then just hangs up
14:09:37 <jdaggett> csyle: using the format "zxxx, xxx is c
14:10:09 <jdaggett> cslye: you're the only 510 number, right?
14:10:18 <cslye> That's correct.
14:10:28 <cslye> So, let me try this...
14:10:47 <cslye> Zakim, aacc is cslye
14:10:47 <Zakim> +cslye; got it
14:11:04 <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy?
14:11:15 <Zakim> jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.970.aaaa (80%)
14:11:29 <erik_> unable to connect - same here.
14:11:44 <erik_> star / zero doesn't go anywhere either.
14:13:01 <sylvaing> trackbot-ng, start telcon
14:13:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:13:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
14:13:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start 13 minutes ago
14:13:06 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
14:13:06 <trackbot> Date: 16 June 2010
14:14:38 <cslye> Vlad: Should we discuss origin restrictions or metadata first?
14:15:55 <Vlad> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Jun/0092.html
14:17:28 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #webfonts
14:18:08 <erik_> despite repeated tries, I'm unable to connect
14:18:20 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
14:18:20 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-irc#T14-18-20
14:18:54 <jfkthame> also unable to connect - i can watch the irc channel but no phone connection
14:19:57 <sylvaing> 1) there is no security benefit here. 
14:19:57 <ChrisL> I can connect via the US number. France number seems unable to accept touch tones
14:20:16 <erik_> trying
14:20:20 <sylvaing> 2) same-origin is not defined in HTML5 but in CORS. CORS depends on HTML5 for the definition of origin and origin matching
14:20:54 <cslye> I connected to the Boston number with no problem, fwiw.
14:22:04 <sylvaing> not opposed
14:22:07 <erik_> I could connect via the uS number
14:22:20 <howcome> howcome has joined #webfonts
14:23:27 <ChrisL> Anne (CORS editor) opposes using CORS for WOFF
14:24:04 <ChrisL> Howcome: is same-origin for WOFF or for other formats?
14:24:07 <sylvaing> Font vendors do not want to license raw fonts so that shouldn't be an issue
14:24:18 <sylvaing> at least for some time
14:24:28 <cslye> I think the point is that WOFF is a "protected" format and deserves the mild protection it gets from same-origin, whereas "raw" fonts don't need it.
14:24:56 <ChrisL> howcome, you mentioned a range of opinions in Opera - what are the others?
14:25:50 <ChrisL> howcome: others say its good, for example to save bandwidth
14:26:30 <cslye> When we refer to the "security" argument, we mean attacks and such, as opposed to theft?
14:26:38 <sylvaing> cslye: yes
14:29:37 <sylvaing> notes that TypeKit et al. rely on cross domain font access so the licensing benefit depends on who the vendor is
14:32:49 <jdaggett> typekit uses data urls
14:33:02 <jdaggett> i.e. they are not affected by this
14:33:15 <sylvaing> jdaggett: for Firefox, yes
14:33:30 <cslye> I think Typekit delivers EOT files for IE, though.
14:33:31 <erik_> this is the license FSI links to in their current WOFF releases: http://www.fontfont.com/eula/license_webfonts_v_1_0.html
14:33:37 <sylvaing> jdaggett: there still are other browsers :) and other font providers who link across domain e.g. ascender
14:33:46 <ChrisL> 2.3. Font Software File Protection. You must ensure, by applying reasonable state-of-the-art measures, that other websites cannot access the Font Software for display (e. g. by preventing hotlinking and blocking direct access to the Font Software via .htaccess or other web server configurations).
14:33:53 <ChrisL> http://www.fontshop.com/help/licenses/fontfont/
14:33:57 <jdaggett> sure
14:35:14 <ChrisL> sg: if browsers do this, font vendors are willing in return to llosen their licenses
14:35:40 <cslye> Not just loosen their license, but would be more inclined to offer web font licenses in the first place.
14:36:16 <ChrisL> erik: makes it much easier for us certainly
14:36:38 <erik_> (that's John, not Erik0
14:36:52 <ChrisL> ... current licensing is in flux and depends on how WOFF spec ends up
14:37:12 <ChrisL> s/John/erik/
14:37:41 <Vlad> installing adequate technical protection measures that restrict the use and/or access to the Font Software and/or Derivative Works, for instance by binding an EOT font to the Licensed Websites, utilizing JavaScript or access control mechanism for cross-origin resource sharing and/or protecting a sIFR Flash file against use on other websites than Licensed Websites by restricting domain access only to Licensed Websites.
14:38:18 <ChrisL> ack syl
14:38:30 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute sylvaing
14:38:30 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is
14:38:37 <ChrisL> zakim, this is font
14:38:37 <Zakim> ok, ChrisL; that matches IA_Fonts()10:00AM
14:38:40 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute sylvaing
14:38:40 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not know which phone connection belongs to sylvaing
14:38:43 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaii
14:41:09 <cslye> :)
14:41:29 <ChrisL> vlad: monotype license encourages woff usage
14:42:13 <ChrisL> sylvaing: generaly positive on same-origin
14:42:26 <ChrisL> howcome: abstain
14:43:05 <cslye> Does anyone explicitly object to requiring access control?
14:43:32 <ChrisL> resolution: same-origin restriction is mandatory for WOFF. modulo editorial changes discussed on the list
14:44:06 <ChrisL> topic: extension mechanisms
14:44:19 <ChrisL> topic: f2f
14:44:26 <cslye> I agree.
14:44:44 <ChrisL> vlad: majority favour a f2f at typecon in LA
14:45:43 <ChrisL> chris: will try, but CSS in Oslo next day, also affects howcome, jdagett and sylvaing
14:46:04 <cslye> My concern with ATypI is that it's closer to TPAC. (Also more difficult for me personally.)
14:46:05 <ChrisL> vlad: dublin atypi
14:46:33 <ChrisL> john: can't do dublin
14:46:43 <ChrisL> cslye: cant do dublin
14:46:48 <ChrisL> (sep 9-12)
14:47:07 <sylvaing> will be at TPAC
14:47:08 <ChrisL> howcome: do we need a physical f2f?
14:47:12 <erik_> http://atypi.org/03_Dublin
14:47:16 <ChrisL> vlad: seen as desirable
14:47:32 <erik_> http://www.typecon.com/
14:47:35 <cslye> It's possible for me -- but travel budget makes it difficult.
14:48:02 <ChrisL> sylvaing: is there enough of an agenda to justify travel?
14:48:14 <sylvaing> if people find themselves in the same spot, they can certainly meet
14:48:27 <ChrisL> vlad: colocating would capitalize on existing travel
14:48:56 <ChrisL> chris: can do call-in using a bridge
14:50:07 <ChrisL> cslye: travel restrictions - good to have the WG there. How can we entice people?
14:50:37 <ChrisL> vlad: everyone plese restate their travel plans including existing travel
14:51:00 <jdaggett> would love to come to typecon but with another meeting directly following it, that's tricky
14:51:33 <sylvaing> same as jdaggett even though it's fewer miles for me
14:52:39 <ChrisL> chris: some of tpac will be spent in liaison
14:52:52 <tiro_j> I will be at TypeCon, but not at ATypI, posibly at TPAC
14:53:04 <ChrisL> vlad: we asked for no overlap with css, can we reschedule?
14:53:12 <sylvaing> overlap with CSS would be quite unhelpful for 4+ of us
14:53:38 <ChrisL> action: chris ask tpac organisers to reschedule webfonts to thur/fri at tpac
14:53:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Ask tpac organisers to reschedule webfonts to thur/fri at tpac [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-06-23].
14:54:30 <ChrisL> topic: metadata extensions
14:55:09 <ChrisL> vlad: from discussions so far, etadata as specified in draft seems near consensus. number and type of elements is ok for font vendors
14:55:22 <ChrisL> ... implementors said it was ok even though optional
14:55:43 <ChrisL> ... so we can state consensus on the existing set of standard metadata elements
14:55:58 <ChrisL> ... so then we can discuss extension mechanism only
14:56:09 <ChrisL> (no objections)
14:56:22 <ChrisL> howcome: not sure
14:56:46 <ChrisL> howcome: want to see a complete proposal
14:57:14 <ChrisL> vlad: can modify for good reason after fpwd
14:57:53 <sylvaing> doesn't know either but acknowledges that what we have is already being used. that's important
14:58:03 <ChrisL> vlad: simple key-value is proposed for extensions
14:59:34 <ChrisL> vlad: localisation is important, tried to be impartial in summary, hope that was clear. but speaking for monotype, opinion is that the solution form jonathan kew was the best one
15:00:11 <ChrisL> ... sergei commented to say it was simple to implement, one pass
15:00:25 <ChrisL> sergeym: yes
15:00:57 <ChrisL> vlad: duplication should not cause significant size increase as it compresses well
15:01:41 <ChrisL> howcome: difficult to discuss now, propose to delay all metadayta out of 1.0
15:02:03 <ChrisL> vlad: including the standard metadata?
15:02:05 <cslye> Wouldn't that just create a lot of ad hoc metadata in shipping WOFFs?
15:02:24 <ChrisL> tal: strongly object, that is the basis we got people to sign on, removing it would be insulting
15:02:38 <ChrisL> vlad: so please respond on email
15:02:43 <sylvaing> we could keep what we have and postpone extensibility. I think this is what Hakon is saying ?
15:03:34 <ChrisL> howcome: yes. just t eh extensibility
15:03:43 <ChrisL> sylvaing: document what is used now
15:04:08 <ChrisL> ... extensibility comes later
15:04:24 <ChrisL> ... now one is using extensibility right now
15:04:46 <ChrisL> ... so drive to LC, CR. Extend once we have actual requirements
15:05:15 <ChrisL> howcome: ok with that
15:06:33 <ChrisL> sylvaing: do we want to delay for uncertain extensibility?
15:06:50 <ChrisL> vlad: if its in fpwd theyn we get feedback and can take it out if needed
15:06:54 <cslye> If we want to get use cases for extended metadata for 1.0, we might get that out of TypeCon and ATypI conversations.
15:07:06 <ChrisL> sylvaing: bar metadata, what other issues do we have?
15:07:10 <ChrisL> vblad: not many
15:07:25 <ChrisL> howcome: so lets get fpwd soon
15:08:03 <ChrisL> vlad: want to have a solution that many of us can live with. if its in the fpwd we can ask for comments. if its not in the draft we can't get comments
15:08:11 <ChrisL> sylvaing: ok lets get it out there
15:08:37 <ChrisL> sergeym: font vendors unlikely to want to remove the extensibility
15:09:18 <ChrisL> cslye; any objection to put it in current draft?
15:09:31 <ChrisL> sylvaing: current draft represents what is out there
15:09:52 <ChrisL> Vlad: better to have an extension proposal for people to discuss
15:11:03 <ChrisL> john: put extensibility as a separate item?
15:11:51 <ChrisL> chris: putting in extensibility and deleting later if needed is better from a patent policy point of view
15:12:15 <ChrisL> vlad: lets use next couple of weeks to try to get agreement here. only half a page or so anyway
15:13:13 <jdaggett> history has been made...
15:13:32 <ChrisL> howcome: i am willing to let microsoft cast my vote here
15:14:07 <ChrisL> resolved: fpwd in a couple of weeks with whatever we have consensus on
15:14:17 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
15:14:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
15:14:39 <Zakim> -jdaggett
15:14:40 <Zakim> - +1.250.668.aaee
15:14:40 <Zakim> -cslye
15:14:41 <Zakim> - +31.70.360.aahh
15:14:42 <Zakim> -ChrisL
15:14:43 <Zakim> - +1.443.895.aabb
15:14:43 <Zakim> - +47.21.65.aagg
15:14:44 <Zakim> - +1.206.324.aaii
15:14:46 <Zakim> -??P22
15:14:48 <Zakim> - +1.781.970.aaaa
15:14:50 <Zakim> - +1.425.882.aadd
15:14:52 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended
15:14:54 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.781.970.aaaa, +1.443.895.aabb, +1.510.816.aacc, +1.425.882.aadd, +1.250.668.aaee, +1.206.324.aaff, jdaggett, cslye, +47.21.65.aagg, ChrisL, +31.70.360.aahh,
15:14:57 <Zakim> ... +1.206.324.aaii
15:15:04 <ChrisL> chair: vlad
15:15:07 <tal> tal has left #webfonts
15:15:08 <ChrisL> scribe: chris
15:15:17 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
15:15:17 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is
15:15:22 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
15:15:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
15:43:59 <jfkthame> jfkthame has left #webfonts
16:09:25 <sylvaing> sylvaing has left #webfonts
17:34:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webfonts
18:08:22 <jfkthame> jfkthame has joined #webfonts