14:47:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #newstd
14:47:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-newstd-irc
14:47:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #newstd
14:47:58 <Ian> zakim, list
14:47:58 <Zakim> I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM, UW_DAP()10:00AM active
14:48:00 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are SW_e-Gov(Chairs)11:00AM, W3C_(NewStd)11:00AM, IA_MFWG()3:00AM, WAI_(AGE TF)9:30AM, GA_WebCGM()11:00AM, XML_XMLCore()11:00AM, WAI_EOWG(BAD
14:48:02 <Zakim> ... TF)11:00AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, IA_XForms()11:00AM, INC_SWXG()11:00AM, SW_HCLS(LODD)11:00AM
14:48:10 <Ian> zakim, this will be W3C_(NewStd)
14:48:10 <Zakim> ok, Ian; I see W3C_(NewStd)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
15:10:45 <Ian> agenda+ survey for gathering data
15:10:50 <Ian> agenda+ documenting use cases
15:10:55 <Ian> agenda+ customers
15:11:02 <Ian> agenda+ next meeting
15:15:08 <Zakim> W3C_(NewStd)11:00AM has now started
15:15:09 <Zakim> +??P40
15:15:24 <Zakim> -??P40
15:15:26 <Zakim> W3C_(NewStd)11:00AM has ended
15:15:26 <Zakim> Attendees were 
15:42:55 <Ian> zakim, this will be W3C_(NewStd)
15:42:55 <Zakim> ok, Ian; I see W3C_(NewStd)11:00AM scheduled to start 42 minutes ago
15:43:09 <Ian> hmm
15:43:26 <Ian> I must have given ralph the wrong time ARGH
15:51:16 <dom> dom has joined #newstd
15:55:30 <tlr> tlr has joined #newstd
15:55:52 <Ian> zakim, extend meeting
15:55:52 <Zakim> I don't understand 'extend meeting', Ian
15:55:58 <Ian> hi guys
15:56:05 <Ian> I requested a bridge, but apparently for the wrong time
15:56:18 <Ian> The good news is that adhoc meetings now get the right code in this channel
15:56:30 <Ian> so I may just wait 4 minutes and create an ad-hoc meeting
15:58:28 <Zakim> W3C_(NewStd)11:00AM has now started
15:58:35 <Zakim> +Mike_Champion
15:58:39 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
15:58:39 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
15:58:41 <Zakim> +Thomas
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Andy
15:59:56 <Ian> zakim, room for 15?
15:59:59 <Zakim> sorry, Ian; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again
16:00:10 <Ian> everyone call in fast!
16:00:13 <tlr> err, ian, it seems like the call is on
16:00:14 <tlr> what?
16:00:49 <dom> zakim, code?
16:00:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 63978 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
16:00:58 <olivier> olivier has joined #newstd
16:01:04 <Ian> zakim, room for 15?
16:01:06 <Zakim> ok, Ian; conference Team_(newstd)16:01Z scheduled with code 63978 (NEWST) for 60 minutes until 1701Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
16:01:23 <Ian> zakim, who's here?
16:01:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Mike_Champion, Thomas, Andy
16:01:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see olivier, tlr, dom, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ian, karl
16:01:25 <Zakim> -Thomas
16:01:26 <Zakim> -Mike_Champion
16:01:28 <Zakim> W3C_(NewStd)11:00AM has ended
16:01:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Champion, Thomas, Andy
16:01:33 <Ian> try again
16:01:36 <tlr> zakim, this will be NEWST
16:01:38 <Zakim> ok, tlr; I see Team_(newstd)16:01Z scheduled to start now
16:01:42 <Zakim> Team_(newstd)16:01Z has now started
16:01:43 <tlr> zakim, call thomas-781
16:01:48 <Zakim> ok, tlr; the call is being made
16:01:50 <Zakim> +Ian
16:01:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:58 <Zakim> +Dom
16:02:03 <dom> zakim, mute me
16:02:03 <Zakim> Dom should now be muted
16:02:05 <karl> zakim, IPcaller is karl
16:02:05 <Zakim> +karl; got it
16:02:08 <Zakim> +Mike_Champion
16:02:10 <Zakim> +Andy
16:02:22 <Zakim> +Arnaud_LeHors
16:02:50 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #newstd
16:03:00 <Ian> zakim, who's here?
16:03:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ian, karl, Dom (muted), Andy, Mike_Champion, Arnaud_LeHors
16:03:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, olivier, tlr, dom, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ian, karl
16:03:19 <Zakim> + +1.617.997.aaaa
16:03:23 <Zakim> +Thomas
16:03:51 <Ian> zakim, who's here?
16:03:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ian, karl, Dom (muted), Andy, Mike_Champion, Arnaud_LeHors, +1.617.997.aaaa, Thomas
16:03:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, olivier, tlr, dom, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ian, karl
16:04:04 <olivier> zakim, +1.617.997.aaaa is me
16:04:04 <Zakim> +olivier; got it
16:05:37 <Ian> zakim, take up item 1
16:05:37 <Zakim> agendum 1. "survey for gathering data" taken up [from Ian]
16:06:13 <Ian> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/newstd2010/
16:06:13 <karl> Scribe: karl
16:06:41 <karl> Ian: I agree with not making a too big survey
16:07:09 <karl> ... I'm hesitant with concrete proposals, because I'm not sure we are all on the same page.
16:07:49 <karl> ... There are still open questions and use cases that we do not know how to handle.
16:07:58 <karl> ... (giving example about wsdl)
16:08:41 <karl> ... I want every use cases on the table before starting.
16:08:45 <Ian> IJ: My main point is to get the use cases on the table
16:08:51 <Ian> ...before coming up with concrete proposals.
16:08:57 <olivier> s/wsdl/how wsdl at ISO could be taken as a use case for how to submit technologies that have already been widely adopted/
16:09:12 <tlr> q+
16:09:22 <karl> Arnaud: The discussion around bringing new standards to w3c should not be part of the discussions
16:09:58 <karl> Ian: Taking public submissions and managing those could be part of our call.
16:09:59 <Ian> IJ: We have thought about "public submissions"
16:10:15 <tlr> q-
16:10:16 <karl> Arnaud: there are two issues
16:10:17 <Ian> ALH: Two use cases (1) existing specs (2) space for development
16:10:22 <tlr> I think most of the questions are in the grey zone between
16:10:35 <karl> tlr: There is a huge grey area.
16:10:44 <karl> ... How W3C should engage?
16:11:00 <karl> ... What are the incentives for Co. and indiv. to engage at W3C.
16:11:46 <Ian> tlr: want to make w3c the place people want to bring things....lower perceived barriers
16:12:04 <Ian> Mike: I think that what we want to do is get w3c out more into the grey area
16:12:25 <Ian> ...so that people in that area gravitate to w3c when they move into a more mature state
16:12:43 <karl> Mike: My biggest concern we will reach out people
16:12:53 <karl> ... who would otherwise go to google groups
16:13:05 <karl> ... who don't know what to do after the first steps of work
16:13:15 <Ian> q+
16:13:30 <karl> ... and make it easy for these to participate under w3c umbrella.
16:13:47 <tlr> q+ to add another piece
16:13:48 <karl> ... Make it easier the transition from their own groups to w3c world
16:13:54 <karl> q?
16:14:17 <Ian> MC: Want to help people would have to learn about ipr policies, etc. and ease them into the world of formal standards
16:14:28 <karl> ... From talking about work and going to a formal standard.
16:14:38 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #newstd
16:14:51 <karl> Arnaud: In many cases these ad hoc groups have members
16:15:11 <karl> ... it would be interesting to know why they chose to not make a submission.
16:15:30 <tlr> q-
16:15:40 <karl> Ian: We may think we have a sense what people want
16:15:53 <karl> ... but maybe there are questions we do not think about.
16:16:05 <karl> ... Maybe the survey is not the good way of doing it.
16:16:06 <Zakim> -olivier
16:16:13 <karl> ... I have put a long list of questions. 
16:16:33 <karl> ... and I want to find the right questions and the right way to ask.
16:16:41 <Ian> Use case: News ontology
16:16:56 <karl> ... (ian giving examples on IRC)
16:17:08 <karl> q+
16:17:20 <Zakim> +olivier
16:17:33 <karl> q-
16:17:35 <Ian> Use case: competing formats in w3c
16:17:51 <Ian> ack me
16:17:51 <Ian> ack k
16:17:52 <karl> ... another use case is competing format in W3C, or technologies 
16:18:13 <Ian> karl: the issue with the "long list" is that you may create culture shock.
16:18:58 <Ian> ...you want diversity...don't want a long survey that is daunting to answer
16:19:40 <Ian> IJ: what are you suggesting? shorter survey? no survey?
16:19:52 <Ian> karl: Maybe allow people to tell their own story
16:20:06 <Ian> ...or maybe a bug-tracker
16:20:22 <Ian> ..allow people to enter the usual issue they have...allowing them to categorize
16:20:23 <Ian> q?
16:20:42 <Ian> Mike: I like the idea of use cases; good start
16:20:44 <karl> Mike: I like the idea of use cases
16:21:00 <karl> ... There are a lot of stuff we know already
16:21:02 <Ian> Mike: I'm not opposed to the survey; but I think we have a pretty good idea of where people perceive barriers
16:21:06 <karl> ... by reading blogs and irc
16:21:29 <karl> ... Maybe the survey could help but we could start from the use cases
16:22:37 <karl> Ian: usecase example - the cost of building the consensus 
16:23:07 <Ian> Use case: Spec profile
16:23:42 <karl> ian: (explaining the use case)
16:23:59 <Ian> MC: Good use case (profile)
16:24:17 <karl> ... Should the W3C accomodate that?
16:24:40 <Ian> MC: There are use cases where general community can't agree on must/should but a specific subcommunity does
16:25:17 <Ian> MC: May undermine consensus, but may keep work under umbrella
16:25:29 <karl> Use Case: Widely deployed spec
16:25:30 <tlr> right. widget signatures are an example for a profile of XML Signature that's been done within W3C.
16:25:50 <karl> Use Case: Revisiting existing notes to promote them
16:25:55 <Ian> Use case: Widely deployed spec to get w3c brand / revisit existing Note promote it / spec maintenance
16:26:04 <Zakim> -olivier
16:26:18 <karl> Ian: I have this sense we need a mechanism
16:26:24 <karl> ... that could take care of a spec
16:26:27 <karl> ... even if old
16:26:41 <karl> ... could raise issues on them.
16:26:58 <Ian> IJ: what's the odata use case?
16:27:09 <karl> mike: the technology is still being
16:27:09 <Ian> MC: The technology is still being brainstormed
16:27:12 <karl> ... brainstormed
16:27:24 <karl> ... It needs to be moved to a standard organization.
16:27:27 <Zakim> +olivier
16:27:44 <Ian> Goal: Make it easy to move from incubator to rec track
16:27:47 <karl> ... I would love to see a lighter process where it would be easy to move it to WG
16:28:04 <karl> ... W3C should become a destination.
16:28:14 <karl> Ian: How to ease the transition
16:28:33 <karl> ... we want to lower the barriers, we want to design the things in a way that it is huge attraction.
16:28:47 <Ian> IJ: I don't know what the solution is yet for "easing the transition to rec track"
16:28:53 <karl> mike: the survey would be useful
16:29:06 <karl> ... to ask more focused questions on tools and services
16:29:16 <karl> ... to help these transitions
16:29:31 <karl> ... A certain amount of research before asking the survey.
16:29:42 <karl> ... You are looking for what people like and dislike
16:29:46 <karl> ... at W3C.
16:29:51 <dom> (I wouldn't do a systematic survey; I would only ask specific questions to specific groups based on what we already know about them)
16:30:02 <karl> +1 to dom
16:30:14 <Arnaud> q+
16:30:29 <karl> Ian: I started to write to individual emails
16:30:37 <karl> ... and I thought I wanted to slack
16:30:46 <karl> s/slack/maximize my work/
16:31:02 <karl> ... so the survey was my initial idea
16:31:13 <karl> ... but indeed it could be done in a different way.
16:31:20 <karl> ... I will put all use cases in the wiki.
16:31:32 <Zakim> -Mike_Champion
16:31:34 <Ian> ack ar
16:31:40 <karl> (Mike champion leaves)
16:31:53 <karl> Arnaud: who do you expect to fill the survey
16:32:01 <Ian> q?
16:32:05 <karl> ... We are trying to reach the people who are ignoring 
16:32:08 <karl> ... the W3C
16:32:24 <karl> ... and we might fail with the survey to reach the people we want to reach.
16:32:36 <karl> Ian: I want to blog about this
16:32:45 <karl> ... to have a public statement out there
16:32:57 <karl> ... and counting on people in the task force to spread the word
16:33:13 <karl> ... Jeff Jaffe will be on the west coast
16:33:18 <karl> (YES we can)
16:33:43 <karl> ... I would like to have this week to have a blog post for explaining the work of this TF
16:33:56 <karl> Arnaud: We should go to specific groups
16:34:11 <karl> ... WhatWg, WSI, and others.
16:34:15 <karl> q+ 
16:34:18 <Ian> WS-Ihttp://www.w3.org/2010/04/w3c-vision-public/wiki/Newstd#Groups
16:34:21 <Ian> whoops:
16:34:21 <Ian> http://www.w3.org/2010/04/w3c-vision-public/wiki/Newstd#Groups
16:34:28 <Ian>     *  OpenARML
16:34:28 <Ian>     * EEMBC
16:34:28 <Ian>     * DiSo
16:34:28 <Ian>     * WebM
16:34:28 <Ian>     * Who from the linked open data community (contact Ivan Herman)?
16:34:29 <Ian>     * WhatWG 
16:34:36 <karl> ... Something volunteer to talk to others
16:34:59 <karl> Ian: we can start a list on the wiki with a list of groups to contact.
16:35:01 <karl> q-
16:35:28 <karl> OpenWeb Foundation
16:35:48 <karl> Webdesign-l
16:35:51 <karl> Alistapart
16:36:22 <karl> Ian: there are other topics we are not used to address.
16:36:49 <karl> ... In the end, if we have done a new process and is not used by people. We would fail.
16:37:35 <Ian> IJ: How do you translate designer needs to use case / process?
16:38:02 <Ian> karl: People want tutorials and other materials useful to the community; how can people comment on specs in a constructive way?
16:38:14 <Ian> ...interesting friction between users and implementers
16:38:22 <Ian> q?
16:39:24 <Ian> IJ: Who wants to work with me on next draft of survey?
16:39:27 <karl> Ian: would someone be available to work on the next draft?
16:39:49 <karl> ... It would be great to have a next draft available by Friday or Monday?
16:40:39 <karl> karl: I can try to find a bit of time
16:40:39 <Ian> IJ: commitment to mailing list reply suffices for me.
16:40:46 <hhalpin> Zakim, what's the code?
16:40:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 63978 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), hhalpin
16:40:47 <Ian> ACTION: Ian to revise the survey to lighten it up
16:40:54 <Ian> ...will send to list this week
16:40:59 <Ian> zakim, take up next item
16:40:59 <Zakim> agendum 2. "documenting use cases" taken up [from Ian]
16:41:02 <hhalpin> Zakim, what's the code?
16:41:02 <Zakim> the conference code is 63978 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), hhalpin
16:41:21 <karl> Ian: If we have use cases clearly written down
16:41:31 <karl> ... and target people to talk to
16:41:58 <karl> ... In the next few days it would be good if people can commit to that.
16:42:27 <Ian> karl: Suggest getting name of organization and name of an individual to contact as well
16:42:47 <karl> did we look at the liaison page
16:42:47 <Ian> IJ: I will create wiki paeg for use cases
16:42:56 <Ian> Ihttp://www.w3.org/2001/11/StdLiaison.html
16:42:59 <Ian> http://www.w3.org/2001/11/StdLiaison.html
16:43:25 <karl> Ian: i was about to send the survey to past and present chairs of incubator groups
16:43:30 <dom> +1
16:43:38 <olivier> +1
16:43:40 <Ian> ACTION: Ian to contact existing/former XG chairs to ask about their experiences
16:43:49 <karl> ... we have not done a quality control to our existing incubator group process.
16:43:51 <karl> +1
16:44:39 <Ian> ACTION Ian: Draft a letter to send to orgs with whom W3C has a liaison
16:44:44 <karl> ... anyone wants help with contacting people.
16:45:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:45:28 <karl> ... any other suggestions for learning about potential customers.
16:45:28 <hhalpin> Zakim, [IPcaller] is hhalpin
16:45:28 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
16:45:33 <karl> (harry joined)
16:45:58 <karl> ... How do we find new customers.
16:47:03 <Ian> http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/edu/attachment/wiki/IETF71/IETF-New-Work.ppt?format=raw
16:47:06 <karl> hhalpin: what group is going to a different standard body and what are the reasons for this.
16:47:18 <Ian> ietf new work list?
16:47:20 <karl> Ian: The IETF has a list for bringing new work
16:47:37 <Ian> IJ: How about using Andy's newsletter to reach people?
16:47:43 <karl> ... How about using your newsletter to reach people.
16:47:48 <tlr> the new-work list is a coordination list between different standards bodies
16:47:52 <tlr> it's not how the IETF accepts new work
16:48:05 <tlr> they have the IETF mailing list, -00 Internet Draft submissions, and the hazing ritual called "BOF" for that.
16:48:16 <Ian> Andy: New issue of consortium newsletter goes out early July
16:48:27 <Ian> ...or Andy's blog
16:48:32 <karl> Andy: My newsletter reach many people participating in the work of standards organization.
16:48:55 <karl> ... It would not be a bad idea on how we get the word out there.
16:49:04 <karl> ... They had pretty good attention.
16:49:07 <karl> q+
16:49:27 <karl> ... Part of that is due to the way they wanted to be known.
16:49:41 <karl> ... We want to be prepared to this. 
16:50:05 <karl> ... We could in the wiki how to put messaging milestones.
16:50:19 <Ian> work schedule: http://www.w3.org/2010/04/w3c-vision-public/wiki/NewStdWork
16:50:21 <karl> Ian: this touch down to branding and communication
16:50:31 <karl> ... partly communications team
16:50:40 <karl> ... There is on the wiki a schedule
16:51:00 <karl> q?
16:51:23 <karl> Andy: everything we do in public is to create awareness
16:51:25 <Ian> Andrew: We want to get feedback and also create awareness in our target market
16:51:29 <karl> ... about what we are trying to do
16:51:41 <karl> ... when it will be available
16:51:45 <Ian> ack k
16:51:50 <karl> ... we have to be ready to answer the questions.
16:52:19 <Ian> karl: one reason for success of OWF was that a few key people in the org are active in social media space.
16:52:25 <tlr> +1 to Karl
16:52:30 <Ian> ..and they used those tools to communicate
16:53:33 <Ian> IJ: What other tools? Twitter is easy enough
16:53:52 <tlr> as an individual
16:53:56 <Ian> KD: as an individual
16:54:01 <tlr> q+
16:54:40 <karl> Ian: all your suggestions about tools are useful.
16:54:53 <Ian> IJ: What hash code?
16:55:29 <tlr> zakim, unmute me
16:55:29 <Zakim> sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:55:38 <Ian> tlr: Important that people understand we are listening to people
16:55:42 <Zakim> -olivier
16:55:45 <karl> tlr: There is an important point. We need to be out of our way and individuals engaging in the discussion
16:55:49 <Ian> tlr: People need to put out ideas, engage, etc.
16:56:06 <Ian> http://www.w3.org/2010/04/w3c-vision-public/wiki/Newstd#Goals_for_a_Proposal_from_this_Task_Force
16:56:12 <karl> (olivier suggests #openw3c)
16:56:13 <Zakim> +olivier
16:56:24 <karl> tlr: but the hastag is not the main issue
16:56:31 <Ian> q?
16:56:33 <Ian> ack tlr
16:56:36 <tlr> q-
16:56:59 <Ian> ACTION: Ian to come up with twitter hash code and start tweeting
16:57:34 <Ian> zakim, close 2
16:57:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close 2', Ian
16:57:36 <Ian> zakim, close item 2
16:57:36 <Zakim> agendum 2, documenting use cases, closed
16:57:37 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:57:37 <Ian> zakim, close item 3
16:57:38 <Zakim> 3. customers [from Ian]
16:57:38 <Zakim> agendum 3, customers, closed
16:57:40 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:57:42 <Zakim> 4. next meeting [from Ian]
16:58:43 <Ian> zakim, take up item 4
16:58:43 <Zakim> agendum 4. "next meeting" taken up [from Ian]
16:59:09 <Ian> IJ: Is this meeting time ok?
16:59:26 <karl> tlr: this time is conflicting with another call.
16:59:30 <olivier> +0
16:59:33 <karl> ... social web xg
16:59:58 <tlr> +1 to another doodle
17:00:04 <Ian> ALH: Suggest another doodle
17:00:29 <karl> hhalpin: we want a time which is regular.
17:00:29 <dom> [I'm not sure we should insist on phone calls if we actually want to be inclusive]
17:00:41 <Arnaud> I'm sorry but I have to jump to another call
17:01:01 <karl> (discussions about the time of the call)
17:01:05 <Zakim> -Arnaud_LeHors
17:01:46 <Zakim> -Dom
17:01:47 <Zakim> -Andy
17:01:48 <Zakim> -hhalpin
17:01:50 <Ian> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-newstd-minutes.html Ian
17:01:50 <Zakim> -olivier
17:01:50 <Zakim> -Ian
17:01:52 <Zakim> -Thomas
17:01:54 <Ian> rrsagent, set logs public
17:02:00 <olivier> olivier has left #newstd
17:03:30 <Zakim> -karl
17:03:31 <Zakim> Team_(newstd)16:01Z has ended
17:03:33 <Zakim> Attendees were Ian, Dom, karl, Mike_Champion, Andy, Arnaud_LeHors, Thomas, olivier, hhalpin