15:42:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:42:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/16-CSS-irc
15:42:59 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:42:59 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
15:43:04 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:51:18 <anne> anne has left #CSS
15:55:00 <glazou> sigh
15:55:04 <glazou> Zakim, code?
15:55:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
15:56:51 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:57 <Zakim> +plinss
15:57:15 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:58:01 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:58:07 <glazou> ChrisL: yeah does not work at all
15:59:08 <glazou> ChrisL: sam problem on US one now...
15:59:11 <glazou> same
15:59:25 <ChrisL> oh, joy
15:59:43 <arronei> zakim, microsoft is arronei and fantasai
15:59:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'microsoft is arronei and fantasai', arronei
15:59:45 <ChrisL> star zero for an operator
15:59:57 <glazou> aaaah
16:00:02 <Zakim> + +33.9.50.89.aaaa
16:00:07 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:07 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
16:00:19 <arronei> zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:19 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:00:37 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:00:48 <ChrisL> works for me - filed as wontfix
16:05:20 <Zakim> + +47.21.65.aabb
16:06:07 <plinss_> zakim, aabb is howcome
16:06:07 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:07:09 <dethbakin> dethbakin has joined #css
16:07:25 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:07:33 <dethbakin> Zakim, Apple has dethbakin 
16:07:33 <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
16:09:04 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:09:05 <glazou> Zakim, who is on the phone ?
16:09:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see plinss, arronei, glazou, ChrisL, howcome, [Apple], David_Baron
16:09:07 <Zakim> [Apple] has dethbakin
16:09:13 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:09:29 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:09:50 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aacc
16:10:19 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:10:37 <plinss_> zakim, aacc is sylvaing
16:10:37 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:11:09 <fantasai> Peter: Anything else for the agenda?
16:12:27 <fantasai> Arron: Two new issues for CSS2.1
16:12:32 <fantasai> Peter: Test suite status?
16:12:36 <fantasai> fantasai: published Alpha 3
16:12:46 <fantasai> fantasai: Have known issues with MS testcases -- arron is working on them
16:12:50 <fantasai> fantasai: i18n tests have been added
16:14:00 <fantasai> fantasai: Didn't add all of Mozilla's testcases -- didn't know the ones in incoming were to be added until last night, and  it was too late to fix the remaining format problems
16:14:14 <fantasai> fantasai: can't build tests with conflicting filenames or using support files not in support/
16:14:56 <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1
16:15:06 <fantasai> dbaron: We shouldn't let open issues block CR/PR/REC
16:15:29 <fantasai> chrisl: We need to publish REC at some point, and there are always open issues
16:16:23 <fantasai> fantasai: I don't mind publishing a spec with issues about things being undefined, but I don't want to publish a spec where we know things are wrong
16:16:32 <fantasai> fantasai: If we don't have time to make a definition, we should say it's undefined
16:16:38 <fantasai> dbaron: We ship browsers with errors in them all the time
16:18:10 <fantasai> peter: I don't think anyone objects to marking things undefined
16:18:17 <fantasai> dbaron: I would prefer not to try to say things are undefined there
16:18:37 <fantasai> peter: then we'll come back to this one (?) in the near future
16:18:54 <plinss_> s/(?)/(101)
16:19:32 <fantasai> peter: issue 60?
16:19:59 <fantasai> sylvain: Working on it this week. Planning to give Anton one last response. Unless he has a strong objection, that's what we'll take b/c this could go on forever. Should wrap up early next week.
16:20:19 <fantasai> sylvain: I don't want to mess with that part of the spec too much, and we have 80% of what we want already
16:20:31 <fantasai> Peter: Arron?
16:20:49 <fantasai> Arron: Trying to commit a testcase right now, and that's my last one
16:21:00 <fantasai> Arron: For the image, I need some help from jdaggett
16:21:07 <fantasai> Arron: testcase is for issue 107
16:21:58 <fantasai> Arron: image is for 154
16:22:41 <fantasai> peter: kicking 165 back to WG?
16:23:03 <fantasai> fantasai: I found a testcase in hixie's collection, so closed arron's action to write one
16:23:09 <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-71
16:24:00 <fantasai> peter: remember discussing this f2f, don't remember if we got anywhere with it
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16:25:44 <fantasai> peter: any opinions on Bert's proposal?
16:25:56 <fantasai> fantasai: seems reasonable to me
16:27:21 <fantasai> Peter: ... recall hearing ?? was too broad change, so I'm actually happy with this
16:27:50 <fantasai> Sylvain: So 3 is the proposal, right?
16:27:59 <fantasai> Peter: Yeah
16:28:48 <fantasai> Peter: Am I hearing silence because people are reading and thinking, or dont' care?
16:28:52 <fantasai> Chris: I don't have an opinion
16:29:13 <arronei> I don't have any opinion on this either
16:29:20 <fantasai> Peter: Not hearing any objections, so propose we adopt proposal 
16:29:28 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Bert's proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 71
16:29:50 <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-119
16:30:34 <fantasai> Chris: Proposal from Bert looks good to me
16:30:48 <fantasai> arron: It actually makes more sense now
16:30:52 <fantasai> fantasai: I like it too
16:31:47 <fantasai> dbaron: ok
16:32:09 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Bert's proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 119
16:32:31 <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-134
16:32:57 <oyvind> tc is 404
16:33:31 <fantasai> http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/microsoft/incoming/top-with-negative-top-001.xht
16:34:34 <fantasai> dbaron: Looks like the top is vertically centered, not the whole thing exactly centered
16:34:53 <fantasai> beth: In webkit it's way up at the top
16:35:01 <fantasai> dbaron: This is a change we made a few years ago
16:35:11 <dbaron> s/This is/I think this is/
16:35:56 <dbaron> Yeah, CSS 2.0 said:
16:35:58 <dbaron> For 'top' and 'bottom', if the height of the containing block is not specified explicitly (i.e., it depends on content height), the percentage value is interpreted like 'auto'. 
16:36:22 <fantasai> fantasai: We have two passes, let's close no change
16:36:45 <fantasai> fantasai: or is it supposed to be exactly centered?
16:37:40 <dbaron> see also http://www.w3.org/mid/4A2965C2.9080002@moonhenge.net
16:39:33 <fantasai> fantasai: The testcase is wrong. The text in the middle of it should be exactly centered
16:40:09 <fantasai> fantasai: I still think we should close this no change.
16:40:19 <fantasai> fantasai: The spec makes sense, but implementations have a bug to fix
16:40:59 <fantasai> Peter: So no change to spec, fix test?
16:41:07 <fantasai> Arron: I'll fix the test
16:41:27 <fantasai> dbaron: Trying to figure out if it's certain that there aren't cyclic dependencies
16:41:35 <fantasai> dbaron: Haven't convinced myself yet because of scrollbars
16:41:40 <fantasai> dbaron: But that should be a separate issue if there are
16:41:53 <fantasai> peter: something for errata
16:42:11 <fantasai> RESOLVED: No change to spec for issue 134, implementations and test suite need updates
16:42:17 <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-165
16:44:08 <fantasai> dbaron: So the emails from last time suggested it needed testcases and now there's a testcase url there
16:44:20 <fantasai> Arron: Looks like we all do the same thing
16:44:27 <fantasai> Arron: So at least we have consistency
16:44:41 <fantasai> dbaron: So for everyone floats stick out of the left edge of the containing block?
16:44:44 <fantasai> Arron: Right
16:44:49 <fantasai> dbaron: Then I guess we resolve no change
16:45:14 <fantasai> peter: Is that because we have interop or because it's the behavior we want?
16:45:29 <fantasai> dbaron: I think it's not the best behavior, but also not worth changing
16:46:33 <fantasai> Peter: The email from Gresley says Opera/Safari/IE7 not complying with spec
16:46:45 <fantasai> Arron: IE7 is the only one that's inconsistent
16:47:32 <fantasai> Arron: IE7 overflows to the right for the LTR case
16:48:56 <fantasai> peter: any opinions?
16:49:11 <fantasai> dbaron: I think given that it's interoperable we should leave it
16:49:26 <oyvind> as for Opera, it seems to have been a bug fixed about a major version ago
16:49:45 <sylvaing> agrees with dbaron, arronei
16:50:30 <fantasai> RESOLVED: No change for CSS2.1 issue 165
16:50:38 <plinss_> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-167
16:50:42 <fantasai> this resolution sponsored by hixie
16:50:44 <fantasai> ;)
16:50:52 <Zakim> -glazou
16:52:22 <fantasai> dbaron: I don't think I have time to understand the proposal in the remaining time in the telecon
16:52:28 <fantasai> Peter: Let's defer this til next week
16:52:39 <fantasai> Chrisl: Overall it looks good, but I agree it is a fairly complicated proposal
16:52:55 <fantasai> Sylvain: Seems to be about two issues
16:53:15 <fantasai> Sylvain: Are they really both the same issue
16:53:16 <fantasai> ?
16:53:25 <fantasai> dbaron: I think it's two issues with one proposal to address both
16:53:48 <fantasai> Peter: One's about backslashes outside a string, another about backslashes inside a string. Don't see the first one being addressed
16:54:36 <fantasai> fantasai: So defer to next week? If we have issues for Zack, we can ask him to clarify
16:54:41 <fantasai> Peter: deferred to next week
16:55:56 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-171
16:56:10 <fantasai> fantasai: I think if we want a proposal here, we need a clue of what the proposal should be
16:57:35 <fantasai> fantasai: There's some text in css3-lists that say ::marker should appear immediately before ::before
16:57:44 <fantasai> fantasai: Which would mean Opera and Safari have to change
16:58:11 <fantasai> fantasai: I think their behavior would look weird if the nested lists had more than one item
16:58:20 <dbaron> I think 170 needs some discussion too... I think there are at least three obvious possibilities.
16:59:14 <fantasai> plus undefined?
16:59:14 <fantasai> :_)
16:59:32 <fantasai> dbaron: I think there's 3 possibilities for min/max height on tables adn rows
16:59:48 <fantasai> dbaron: I'm not sure which Gecko implements.. I think it implements possibility 2 for min/mad width
16:59:52 <fantasai> dbaron: But not sure for height
16:59:59 <fantasai> dbaron: possibility 1 is to just ignore them
17:00:12 <fantasai> dbaron: Possibility 2 is to treat them as limits when computing preferred widths
17:00:21 <fantasai> dbaron: possibility 3 is to apply them to the row as a whole
17:00:47 <dbaron> s/computing preferred widths/computing a computed width for each cell/
17:00:57 <fantasai> Peter: we're out of time
17:01:07 <fantasai> Peter: David, can you send an email?
17:01:09 <fantasai> dbaron: ok
17:01:18 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:01:22 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:01:24 <Zakim> -howcome
17:01:26 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:01:27 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:01:28 <fantasai> Peter: That's it for this week. Thanks everyone
17:01:35 <Zakim> -arronei
17:01:38 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:39 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:41 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, +33.9.50.89.aaaa, glazou, arronei, ChrisL, +47.21.65.aabb, howcome, dethbakin, David_Baron, +1.206.324.aacc, sylvaing
17:17:57 <dbaron> I thought of a fourth possibility too, and posted to www-style
17:24:13 <dbaron> oops, now I have a fifth
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