IRC log of CSS on 2010-06-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:42:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:42:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:42:59 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:42:59 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
15:43:04 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:51:18 [anne]
anne has left #CSS
15:55:00 [glazou]
15:55:04 [glazou]
Zakim, code?
15:55:04 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
15:56:51 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:57 [Zakim]
15:57:15 [oyvind]
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15:58:01 [Zakim]
15:58:07 [glazou]
ChrisL: yeah does not work at all
15:59:08 [glazou]
ChrisL: sam problem on US one now...
15:59:11 [glazou]
15:59:25 [ChrisL]
oh, joy
15:59:43 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is arronei and fantasai
15:59:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'microsoft is arronei and fantasai', arronei
15:59:45 [ChrisL]
star zero for an operator
15:59:57 [glazou]
16:00:02 [Zakim]
+ +
16:00:07 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:00:07 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:00:19 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:19 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:00:37 [Zakim]
16:00:48 [ChrisL]
works for me - filed as wontfix
16:05:20 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aabb
16:06:07 [plinss_]
zakim, aabb is howcome
16:06:07 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
16:07:09 [dethbakin]
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16:07:25 [Zakim]
16:07:33 [dethbakin]
Zakim, Apple has dethbakin
16:07:33 [Zakim]
+dethbakin; got it
16:09:04 [Zakim]
16:09:05 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone ?
16:09:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, arronei, glazou, ChrisL, howcome, [Apple], David_Baron
16:09:07 [Zakim]
[Apple] has dethbakin
16:09:13 [dbaron]
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16:09:29 [sylvaing]
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16:09:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aacc
16:10:19 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:10:37 [plinss_]
zakim, aacc is sylvaing
16:10:37 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:11:09 [fantasai]
Peter: Anything else for the agenda?
16:12:27 [fantasai]
Arron: Two new issues for CSS2.1
16:12:32 [fantasai]
Peter: Test suite status?
16:12:36 [fantasai]
fantasai: published Alpha 3
16:12:46 [fantasai]
fantasai: Have known issues with MS testcases -- arron is working on them
16:12:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: i18n tests have been added
16:14:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: Didn't add all of Mozilla's testcases -- didn't know the ones in incoming were to be added until last night, and it was too late to fix the remaining format problems
16:14:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: can't build tests with conflicting filenames or using support files not in support/
16:14:56 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1
16:15:06 [fantasai]
dbaron: We shouldn't let open issues block CR/PR/REC
16:15:29 [fantasai]
chrisl: We need to publish REC at some point, and there are always open issues
16:16:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't mind publishing a spec with issues about things being undefined, but I don't want to publish a spec where we know things are wrong
16:16:32 [fantasai]
fantasai: If we don't have time to make a definition, we should say it's undefined
16:16:38 [fantasai]
dbaron: We ship browsers with errors in them all the time
16:18:10 [fantasai]
peter: I don't think anyone objects to marking things undefined
16:18:17 [fantasai]
dbaron: I would prefer not to try to say things are undefined there
16:18:37 [fantasai]
peter: then we'll come back to this one (?) in the near future
16:18:54 [plinss_]
16:19:32 [fantasai]
peter: issue 60?
16:19:59 [fantasai]
sylvain: Working on it this week. Planning to give Anton one last response. Unless he has a strong objection, that's what we'll take b/c this could go on forever. Should wrap up early next week.
16:20:19 [fantasai]
sylvain: I don't want to mess with that part of the spec too much, and we have 80% of what we want already
16:20:31 [fantasai]
Peter: Arron?
16:20:49 [fantasai]
Arron: Trying to commit a testcase right now, and that's my last one
16:21:00 [fantasai]
Arron: For the image, I need some help from jdaggett
16:21:07 [fantasai]
Arron: testcase is for issue 107
16:21:58 [fantasai]
Arron: image is for 154
16:22:41 [fantasai]
peter: kicking 165 back to WG?
16:23:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: I found a testcase in hixie's collection, so closed arron's action to write one
16:23:09 [plinss_]
16:24:00 [fantasai]
peter: remember discussing this f2f, don't remember if we got anywhere with it
16:25:08 [arronei]
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16:25:44 [fantasai]
peter: any opinions on Bert's proposal?
16:25:56 [fantasai]
fantasai: seems reasonable to me
16:27:21 [fantasai]
Peter: ... recall hearing ?? was too broad change, so I'm actually happy with this
16:27:50 [fantasai]
Sylvain: So 3 is the proposal, right?
16:27:59 [fantasai]
Peter: Yeah
16:28:48 [fantasai]
Peter: Am I hearing silence because people are reading and thinking, or dont' care?
16:28:52 [fantasai]
Chris: I don't have an opinion
16:29:13 [arronei]
I don't have any opinion on this either
16:29:20 [fantasai]
Peter: Not hearing any objections, so propose we adopt proposal
16:29:28 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Bert's proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 71
16:29:50 [plinss_]
16:30:34 [fantasai]
Chris: Proposal from Bert looks good to me
16:30:48 [fantasai]
arron: It actually makes more sense now
16:30:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: I like it too
16:31:47 [fantasai]
dbaron: ok
16:32:09 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Bert's proposal accepted for CSS2.1 Issue 119
16:32:31 [plinss_]
16:32:57 [oyvind]
tc is 404
16:33:31 [fantasai]
16:34:34 [fantasai]
dbaron: Looks like the top is vertically centered, not the whole thing exactly centered
16:34:53 [fantasai]
beth: In webkit it's way up at the top
16:35:01 [fantasai]
dbaron: This is a change we made a few years ago
16:35:11 [dbaron]
s/This is/I think this is/
16:35:56 [dbaron]
Yeah, CSS 2.0 said:
16:35:58 [dbaron]
For 'top' and 'bottom', if the height of the containing block is not specified explicitly (i.e., it depends on content height), the percentage value is interpreted like 'auto'.
16:36:22 [fantasai]
fantasai: We have two passes, let's close no change
16:36:45 [fantasai]
fantasai: or is it supposed to be exactly centered?
16:37:40 [dbaron]
see also
16:39:33 [fantasai]
fantasai: The testcase is wrong. The text in the middle of it should be exactly centered
16:40:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: I still think we should close this no change.
16:40:19 [fantasai]
fantasai: The spec makes sense, but implementations have a bug to fix
16:40:59 [fantasai]
Peter: So no change to spec, fix test?
16:41:07 [fantasai]
Arron: I'll fix the test
16:41:27 [fantasai]
dbaron: Trying to figure out if it's certain that there aren't cyclic dependencies
16:41:35 [fantasai]
dbaron: Haven't convinced myself yet because of scrollbars
16:41:40 [fantasai]
dbaron: But that should be a separate issue if there are
16:41:53 [fantasai]
peter: something for errata
16:42:11 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: No change to spec for issue 134, implementations and test suite need updates
16:42:17 [plinss_]
16:44:08 [fantasai]
dbaron: So the emails from last time suggested it needed testcases and now there's a testcase url there
16:44:20 [fantasai]
Arron: Looks like we all do the same thing
16:44:27 [fantasai]
Arron: So at least we have consistency
16:44:41 [fantasai]
dbaron: So for everyone floats stick out of the left edge of the containing block?
16:44:44 [fantasai]
Arron: Right
16:44:49 [fantasai]
dbaron: Then I guess we resolve no change
16:45:14 [fantasai]
peter: Is that because we have interop or because it's the behavior we want?
16:45:29 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think it's not the best behavior, but also not worth changing
16:46:33 [fantasai]
Peter: The email from Gresley says Opera/Safari/IE7 not complying with spec
16:46:45 [fantasai]
Arron: IE7 is the only one that's inconsistent
16:47:32 [fantasai]
Arron: IE7 overflows to the right for the LTR case
16:48:56 [fantasai]
peter: any opinions?
16:49:11 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think given that it's interoperable we should leave it
16:49:26 [oyvind]
as for Opera, it seems to have been a bug fixed about a major version ago
16:49:45 [sylvaing]
agrees with dbaron, arronei
16:50:30 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: No change for CSS2.1 issue 165
16:50:38 [plinss_]
16:50:42 [fantasai]
this resolution sponsored by hixie
16:50:44 [fantasai]
16:50:52 [Zakim]
16:52:22 [fantasai]
dbaron: I don't think I have time to understand the proposal in the remaining time in the telecon
16:52:28 [fantasai]
Peter: Let's defer this til next week
16:52:39 [fantasai]
Chrisl: Overall it looks good, but I agree it is a fairly complicated proposal
16:52:55 [fantasai]
Sylvain: Seems to be about two issues
16:53:15 [fantasai]
Sylvain: Are they really both the same issue
16:53:16 [fantasai]
16:53:25 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think it's two issues with one proposal to address both
16:53:48 [fantasai]
Peter: One's about backslashes outside a string, another about backslashes inside a string. Don't see the first one being addressed
16:54:36 [fantasai]
fantasai: So defer to next week? If we have issues for Zack, we can ask him to clarify
16:54:41 [fantasai]
Peter: deferred to next week
16:55:56 [fantasai]
16:56:10 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think if we want a proposal here, we need a clue of what the proposal should be
16:57:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: There's some text in css3-lists that say ::marker should appear immediately before ::before
16:57:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: Which would mean Opera and Safari have to change
16:58:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think their behavior would look weird if the nested lists had more than one item
16:58:20 [dbaron]
I think 170 needs some discussion too... I think there are at least three obvious possibilities.
16:59:14 [fantasai]
plus undefined?
16:59:14 [fantasai]
16:59:32 [fantasai]
dbaron: I think there's 3 possibilities for min/max height on tables adn rows
16:59:48 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'm not sure which Gecko implements.. I think it implements possibility 2 for min/mad width
16:59:52 [fantasai]
dbaron: But not sure for height
16:59:59 [fantasai]
dbaron: possibility 1 is to just ignore them
17:00:12 [fantasai]
dbaron: Possibility 2 is to treat them as limits when computing preferred widths
17:00:21 [fantasai]
dbaron: possibility 3 is to apply them to the row as a whole
17:00:47 [dbaron]
s/computing preferred widths/computing a computed width for each cell/
17:00:57 [fantasai]
Peter: we're out of time
17:01:07 [fantasai]
Peter: David, can you send an email?
17:01:09 [fantasai]
dbaron: ok
17:01:18 [Zakim]
17:01:22 [Zakim]
17:01:24 [Zakim]
17:01:26 [Zakim]
17:01:27 [Zakim]
17:01:28 [fantasai]
Peter: That's it for this week. Thanks everyone
17:01:35 [Zakim]
17:01:38 [Zakim]
17:01:39 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, +, glazou, arronei, ChrisL, +47.21.65.aabb, howcome, dethbakin, David_Baron, +1.206.324.aacc, sylvaing
17:17:57 [dbaron]
I thought of a fourth possibility too, and posted to www-style
17:24:13 [dbaron]
oops, now I have a fifth
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