15:00:53 RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg 15:00:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/11-prov-xg-irc 15:00:55 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:00:55 Zakim has joined #prov-xg 15:00:56 Christine has joined #prov-xg 15:00:57 Zakim, this will be 98765 15:00:57 ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start now 15:00:58 Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference 15:00:58 Date: 11 June 2010 15:01:00 jun has joined #prov-xg 15:01:07 Zakim, this will be inc_provxg 15:01:07 ok, YolandaGil, I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM already started 15:01:13 Christine: will you scribe today? 15:01:13 Irini has joined #prov-xg 15:01:29 Its because I probably have to leave earlier 15:01:29 rrsagent, make logs public 15:01:33 + +1.937.775.aabb 15:01:59 Now I have problems with both the France and the UK bridge, I can not enter the conference code 15:02:00 no problem, we just need someone to do it, you can do it anothe day 15:02:15 dial in and then press 0 15:02:20 upps, sorry Yolanda I didn't see that. I'm trying to connect to the UK bridge... 15:02:21 Yes. Assuming I can join the call. I just tried but it did not work. 15:02:27 that will connect you to an operator 15:02:50 - +1.937.775.aabb 15:02:57 + +30281039aacc 15:03:08 jcheney has joined #prov-xg 15:03:18 + +1.937.775.aadd 15:03:30 + +1.518.608.aaee 15:03:31 i can't join either 15:03:46 me neither, through the UK bridge 15:03:55 same problem for me 15:04:24 i am contacting the w3c operator, hang on 15:04:26 ditto 15:04:27 same problem 15:04:32 *0 or 0 is also not working 15:04:41 ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg 15:04:56 - +30281039aacc 15:05:01 hang on, i'm trying to fix the bridge 15:05:09 ok 15:05:13 thanks! 15:05:32 i mean trying to *get someone* who can fix the bridge :) 15:06:12 +[IPcaller] 15:06:15 DeborahMcG has joined #PROV-XG 15:06:20 pgroth has joined #prov-xg 15:06:49 Ok, the UK and France bridge are out 15:07:21 we either cancel the call until next week when this is reseolved 15:07:30 or everyone has to dial in to the US bridge 15:07:35 can we not just use the us bridge? 15:07:39 the W3c apologizes profusely 15:07:46 Dgarijo has joined #prov-xg 15:07:46 +[IPcaller.a] 15:08:00 is the us bridge a problem for people? 15:08:09 +[IPcaller.aa] 15:08:12 ok I thunk 15:08:14 I will dial in by the us bridge 15:08:14 us worked for me 15:08:21 thunk/think :) 15:08:31 it's fine with me. But I'll have to leave early, anyway :-( 15:08:32 zakim, [IPcaller.a] is probably me. 15:08:32 +kai?; got it 15:09:00 zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is probably me 15:09:00 +Dgarijo?; got it 15:09:01 +[IPcaller.a] 15:09:13 +??P16 15:09:14 I don't think I can do the US bridge, sorry - not in the office and v expensive international rates 15:09:16 Hi Yolanda. I have joined the call using the US number. 15:09:21 + +49.302.093.aaff 15:09:30 Simon: can you skype it? 15:09:40 + +49.356.7.aagg 15:09:49 zakim, ??P16 is me 15:09:49 +jcheney; got it 15:10:02 yes I'm gonna try, but might take a bit as skype is not set up (new laptop) 15:10:08 + +44.238.059.aahh 15:10:10 Yes I can scribe. 15:10:17 Zakim, aaff is me 15:10:17 +olaf; got it 15:11:02 +[IPcaller.aa] 15:11:10 Does anyone else hear echoes? 15:11:12 Agenda for today - Provenance Vocabulary Mapping 15:11:14 - +1.619.524.aaaa 15:11:16 yes me 15:11:19 yes, echo is terrible 15:11:22 I hear them 15:11:24 jun has joined #prov-xg 15:11:30 really bad echo 15:11:38 +1 for bad echo 15:11:38 line dropping :-( 15:11:50 can everyone go on mute? 15:11:58 except for satya 15:12:02 sure 15:12:02 zakim, mute me 15:12:02 kai? should now be muted 15:12:03 zakim, who is noisy? 15:12:03 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings 15:12:10 zakim, mute me 15:12:10 olaf should now be muted 15:12:13 jun, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.937.775.aadd (100%), olaf (36%), +49.356.7.aagg (65%) 15:12:36 zakim, mute me 15:12:36 Dgarijo? should now be muted 15:12:59 who's on the phone? 15:13:11 Satya: OPM terms are the core set for the mapping work on the link 15:14:24 Yolanda: Why was OPM chosen? 15:15:14 Paul: At the Face to Face meeting, we thought it was a fairly simple model; community developed model - therefore a good place to start 15:15:36 q+ 15:15:47 Yolanda: Important to emphasize that it has been developed by the community 15:17:23 Satya: Mapping terms from other provenance vocabularies to the OPM terms 15:17:43 q- 15:18:24 Luc do you want to do that :-) 15:18:31 Satya: Paolo and Simon please go over each of the provenance terms 15:18:37 i can 15:18:42 +??P4 15:18:43 ok 15:19:06 + +30281039aaii 15:19:14 zakim, ??P4 is smiles 15:19:14 +smiles; got it 15:19:20 zakim, mute me 15:19:20 smiles should now be muted 15:19:26 Zakim, +30281039aaii is Irini 15:19:26 +Irini; got it 15:19:36 zakim, mute me 15:19:36 sorry, Jose_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:20:11 Luc: I will not cover the history of OPM - As a community we wanted to talk about dependancy graphs and annotate them. We identified the nodes/edges those graphs would support. We have artefacts generated and consumed by processes. Entities control processes. 15:20:29 Luc: Edges indicate dependencies between nodes. 15:21:00 Luc: Last elements is the notion of account. 15:21:26 Luc: These are not all the OPM concepts. Time, annotation, profile etc. 15:21:42 Luc: At this stage they have not all been incorporated in the table. 15:21:44 I can answer that 15:22:36 Paul: To follow up - We left out some things like time, annotation and profiles because - necessary for OPM but not terms you use to describe provenance 15:23:31 Luc: If you want to be complete and map some dependencies in other models you may require sub-typing of OPM 15:23:50 u wanted to translate model X to OPM 15:24:44 Satya: We asked the volunteers to define the mappings and select the terms they thought were closest to OPM terms 15:25:34 q+ 15:26:38 Luc: Q re process and methodology. Your explanation Satya is very useful but this is not reflected in the table - e.g. why provenir process is broader than OPM - need to record and review 15:27:11 Luc: We should provide justification of each entry in the term and this should be reviewed. 15:27:26 Satya: I agree. Perhaps add next reiteration. 15:27:39 Luc: Original justification column and review column. 15:28:11 Satya: Who should review? 15:28:50 Luc: Paul mentioned this table is already getting some visibility. 15:29:36 +1 to provenance of provenance work ;-) 15:29:50 Yolanda: What Satya is trying to do, I think, it to provide the information concisely. Agree we should make sure we capture the provenance of this work. 15:30:28 Luc and Satya: Take this up in next reiteration 15:31:18 in OPM artifacts can also be decisions or justifications 15:31:38 q+ 15:31:50 q- 15:32:17 [Satya explaining entries in Vocabulary Mappings Table] 15:34:05 Satya: Related match if not strictly broader 15:34:26 or not sure 15:35:47 YolandaGil_ has joined #prov-xg 15:35:53 Jun: Q for Satya and Luc - re artifact and data part - what is covered by these two concepts? 15:36:43 Jun: Does OPM only cover physical things? Does Provenir Data cover things other than what we normally think of as data? 15:37:12 +[ISI] 15:37:18 -Yolanda 15:37:41 Satya: Data collection is a specialisation of data 15:38:08 Jun: Should we include data collection - Provenir in the table? 15:38:28 Zakim, [ISI] is really me 15:38:28 +YolandaGil_; got it 15:38:37 q+ 15:38:44 Satya: Need to clarify with OPM people 15:40:00 Luc: An artifact in OPM can be digital, physical or it can be conceptual. OPM artifacts used for data, data sets, files, etc, physical objects and concepts e.g. the fact that there is a decision or an idea. No restriction about artifact. 15:40:16 Jun: Thank you for this confirmation. 15:40:19 q- 15:41:16 q+ 15:41:44 Jose: My impression is that some part of the mismatch is probably the specificity gap of the language. Is there the required specificity for this? e.g. broad match 15:42:43 I agree that creating a formal mapping would take us ages. 15:43:00 Paul: Our job was not to define an exact perfect mapping between all these vocabularies. More to give a space to how the vocabularies connect to each other. Could use more complicated language or problematic. But beyond the scope of this group's work. 15:43:00 q+ 15:43:13 q- 15:43:21 For justifications, I would be happy to see examples of why concepts are broader narrower 15:43:38 Jose: I think this is the right approach, but we should also consider whether we want to go further. 15:43:47 Paul: Not possible in the time we have. 15:44:10 along the lines of what Satya said: one can have nested processes, the other cannot 15:44:14 Satya: Could be an extension of the incubator group 15:44:30 +1 to that 15:44:33 Jose: Agree. Reasonable. 15:45:23 Scribe correction "complicated language or programmatic" 15:46:36 precede_by is temporal, wasTriggeredBy is causal 15:47:07 what should we do next? 15:47:12 Yolanda: How should we precede with the discussion of the mapping? 15:47:43 Yolanda: I was hoping for a more detailed discussion in the calls which would feed into a report. 15:48:22 Yolanda: Was one example enough (Provenir)? 15:48:31 Did we encounter concepts we could not map to OPM? 15:48:33 q? 15:49:05 [Paul recapped suggestions from Luc] 15:49:20 q+ 15:49:27 Yolanda: Perhaps we could record some of these Qs and As on the wiki 15:49:30 ack me 15:49:42 q- 15:50:45 Kai: Perhaps we need to clarify our purpose for the mapping. I agree we should collect some information for our reasoning. I am interested in vocabularies and some general information about how they are related so people can choose between them. 15:50:53 q+ 15:50:54 Kai: This can be the starting point. 15:51:05 q+ 15:51:23 q+ 15:51:27 +1 for recording the Q and A on wiki 15:51:27 Kai: More would probably be out of scope. 15:52:33 Jose: Geography map - coverage by each vocabulary would be useful. 15:54:11 Luc: We have to pragmatic here. It is 11 June. Group finishes in September. We could use all time on vocabulary mapping. We want to do a good job 15:55:04 Luc: Mapping should inform the technology survey we are going to do. 15:56:02 Exactly! That's what I meant 15:56:09 The wiki has a list of terms from other provenance vocabularies that are not modeled in OPM 15:56:14 +q 15:56:18 q- 15:56:23 Luc: Happy to assist with review 15:56:42 * zakim, unmute me 15:57:29 sorry i must have a microphone problem 15:57:33 Yolanda: We want a coherent report and coherent set of products. 15:57:55 Yolanda: We want mappings and core terminology to be tied to the 3 scenarios we have. 15:58:55 Just wanted to say that it would be helpful to give a few specific examples for concepts in each vocabulary, so that the overlaps are clear, e.g. OPM artifacts include "file", "statue"; data in provenir includes "file", "statue" 15:59:09 Yolanda: We want to have a good sense of commonalities and themes or provenance. Keep the scenarios in mind to define what we need. 15:59:14 * zakim, mute me 16:00:14 yes, sorry - microphone problems 16:01:00 +1 16:01:01 +1 16:01:03 +1 16:01:09 +1 16:01:13 Yolanda: Suggest we have an official call on this effort at a different time. Weekly for the next 3 or 4 weeks to wrap this up? Would that be agreeable? e.g. 11 am Thursdays Boston time 16:02:06 Yolanda: I will set up the bridge for these calls. 16:02:30 can I say that the table is becoming very big and we can't print it? 16:02:35 Satya: We need someone from PML to help us in defining the mappings. 16:02:44 Satya: SWAN has been reviewed 16:03:16 Yolanda: 9 vocabularies. Try 3 per week. 16:03:35 Some of us are at IPAW 16:03:36 Yolanda: Who will prepare for discussion next week? 16:03:54 Yolanda: Maybe start the following Thursday? 16:03:57 following Thursday better, yes 16:03:59 Satya: agree 16:04:04 - +1.518.608.aaee 16:04:07 Yolanda: Ok 16:04:32 Yolanda: Thank you. This was very productive. Sometimes we need to discuss the process. 16:04:40 - +1.937.775.aadd 16:04:41 -[IPcaller] 16:04:41 -[IPcaller.aa] 16:04:42 -olaf 16:04:43 -jcheney 16:04:44 -YolandaGil_ 16:04:45 - +44.238.059.aahh 16:04:46 -Irini 16:04:47 -Dgarijo? 16:04:49 - +49.356.7.aagg 16:04:55 Yolanda: Will you finish the scribing? 16:04:55 -kai? 16:05:17 -smiles 16:05:39 -[IPcaller.a] 16:05:40 INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended 16:05:42 Attendees were Yolanda, +1.619.524.aaaa, +1.937.775.aabb, +30281039aacc, +1.937.775.aadd, +1.518.608.aaee, [IPcaller], kai?, Dgarijo?, +49.302.093.aaff, +49.356.7.aagg, jcheney, 16:05:45 ... +44.238.059.aahh, olaf, smiles, Irini, YolandaGil_ 17:05:45 DeborahMcG has joined #PROV-XG 18:07:13 DeborahMcG has joined #PROV-XG 18:41:08 rrsagent, set log public 18:41:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:41:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/11-prov-xg-minutes.html YolandaGil_ 19:11:09 Zakim has left #prov-xg 23:14:20 trackbot, end telcon 23:14:20 Zakim, list attendees 23:14:21 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 23:14:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/11-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot 23:14:22 RRSAgent, bye 23:14:22 I see no action items