IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-06-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:58:52 [RRSAgent]
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21:58:52 [RRSAgent]
logging to
21:59:07 [janina]
zakim, this will be #html-a11y
21:59:07 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
22:00:25 [mkobayas]
mkobayas has joined #html-a11y
22:00:27 [MichaelC]
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22:00:47 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
22:00:47 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM already started
22:00:56 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:00:56 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:00:58 [Zakim]
22:01:05 [JF]
slim pickin's here. I anyone dialed in?
22:01:17 [MichaelC]
22:01:22 [Zakim]
22:01:38 [MichaelC]
zakim, aaaa is John_Foliot
22:01:38 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot; got it
22:03:11 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has joined #html-a11y
22:03:34 [davidb]
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22:03:48 [Zakim]
22:04:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.307.aabb
22:04:59 [Zakim]
+ +44.154.558.aacc
22:05:05 [MichaelC]
zakim, aabb is Eric_Carlson
22:05:05 [Zakim]
+Eric_Carlson; got it
22:05:17 [MichaelC]
zakim, aacc is Sean_Hayes
22:05:17 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hayes; got it
22:09:28 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
22:10:36 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
22:10:36 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
22:10:53 [AllanJ]
Topic: Action Items
22:12:31 [MichaelC]
close action-35
22:12:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-35 Write cues requirements closed
22:13:34 [AllanJ]
Topic: Review of Straw Polel
22:14:51 [AllanJ]
22:15:18 [Zakim]
+ +61.3.986.4.aadd
22:15:22 [AllanJ]
topic: Audio Description
22:15:59 [MichaelC]
zakim, aadd is Kenny_Johar
22:15:59 [Zakim]
+Kenny_Johar; got it
22:17:07 [AllanJ]
question: (AD-4) is a requirement to synchronize audio/video resources from potentially different servers. This is potentially much more difficult than synchronizing text to a media resource. The current work on <track> is not trying to solve this, so if this is important then it should be stated more clearly.
22:17:41 [AllanJ]
js: use case. would need to buffer them before presenting.
22:17:54 [AllanJ]
jf: coming from different servers
22:18:17 [AllanJ]
... at university, flash player wants all resources on same server
22:18:27 [AllanJ]
... is this easy or hard?
22:19:08 [AllanJ]
sh: requirement is about quality of voice, description should be able to be human speech.
22:19:25 [AllanJ]
... difficult to provide from different servers.
22:19:46 [AllanJ]
... should clarify, that this is a user requirement.
22:20:10 [AllanJ]
jf: should we start collecting technical requirements?
22:20:19 [AllanJ]
... yes (personally)
22:20:42 [AllanJ]
sh: should have separate doc or section about technical requirements
22:22:05 [AllanJ]
ec: difficult to synchro at playback time. need hooks at very low level.
22:22:13 [eric_carlson]
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22:22:54 [AllanJ]
jf: can you not have media, audio and text files in a same wrapper
22:23:26 [AllanJ]
sh: constraint on the platform, desktop vs mobile
22:23:45 [AllanJ]
...use case is still valid
22:24:02 [AllanJ]
js: sounds like a SHOULD not a MUST
22:24:42 [AllanJ]
jf: perhaps all should be prefaced by platform, player
22:24:59 [AllanJ]
js: conditional, media,
22:25:10 [AllanJ]
jf: platform support
22:26:01 [AllanJ]
js: if provide described video then do this. if not it doesn't apply
22:26:22 [AllanJ]
sh: html5 has language like this regarding CSS
22:26:53 [AllanJ]
... spec cannot require a UA how it implements CSS
22:27:03 [AllanJ]
... we are in similar situation
22:27:45 [AllanJ]
... can say, this a description for that, expect certain UA behavior, but can't require it
22:29:48 [AllanJ]
sh: can not say you have to do xyz. may be able to set some semantic requirement.
22:30:03 [AllanJ]
... remember this is a content spec, not a UA spec
22:30:28 [AllanJ]
jf: external files are more difficult, not expecting separate servers.
22:30:46 [AllanJ]
js: just drop it to a SHOULD level. don't prohibit it
22:31:13 [AllanJ]
jf: phillip seeking clarification.
22:31:38 [AllanJ]
js: SHOULD not required so no clarification needed.
22:32:21 [AllanJ]
QUESTION: (AD-5) and (AD-6) assumes that several audio tracks can play in parallel at all. This is unlikely to be true in the near future.
22:32:56 [AllanJ]
js: this is possible now depending on device. have them on the mobile device now.
22:33:25 [AllanJ]
jf: devices have ability to independently adjust volume.
22:33:39 [AllanJ]
sh: cntent vs device or UA
22:33:48 [AllanJ]
22:34:48 [AllanJ]
... it depends on device. expected behavior is that each channel have separate volume.
22:35:06 [AllanJ]
jf: if more than one audio track,
22:35:35 [AllanJ]
sh: but player may not be able to control independently if no API
22:36:05 [AllanJ]
jf: device should allow this control
22:36:49 [AllanJ]
sh: expected behavior based on existence of api is foofoo
22:37:17 [AllanJ]
... this is what author expects the UA to do.
22:37:59 [AllanJ]
js: if UA supports multiple audio through api, them MUST be able to control independent audio
22:38:18 [Zakim]
22:38:20 [AllanJ]
... then play all at same volume.
22:39:53 [AllanJ]
sh: yes, and the UA would die. this is content. MUST for syntax of what author rights. then, foo is the expected behavior for the UA
22:40:19 [AllanJ]
s/rights. then/writes. then
22:41:11 [AllanJ]
jf: since html5 puts the media player native to the UA, then the UA is the player, and html5 must write to it
22:41:24 [AllanJ]
... where is proper place for the language.
22:42:12 [AllanJ]
sh: would be great if html5 says UA must comply with UAAG20
22:42:46 [AllanJ]
js: this is different from where I am coming from. everything would be a SHOULD.
22:43:22 [AllanJ]
sh: html5 spec should specify expected behavior.
22:43:38 [AllanJ]
js: ok with this for now.
22:44:36 [AllanJ]
jf: this document may be a reference for more than one working groups
22:45:09 [AllanJ]
js: use CSS example from spec, and model media language around it
22:45:34 [AllanJ]
QUESTION: (AD-7) seems like a quality of implementation issue, I would remove it.
22:45:58 [AllanJ]
js: make it a SHOULD. it's nice to have it.
22:46:13 [AllanJ]
ec: what does smooth changes in volume mean
22:46:34 [AllanJ]
js: infinite volume control
22:47:07 [AllanJ]
ec: volume is a floating point number, it provides what is asked.
22:47:51 [AllanJ]
sh: right. this is still a user requirement. just because it is done, does not mean we discard it
22:49:09 [AllanJ]
js; floating by 10, 20, 30..., want 1,2,3...
22:50:08 [AllanJ]
sh: smooth is with out perceptible artifacts, technically, this is a UA implementation.
22:50:33 [AllanJ]
jf: want a ramp not steps. how to state so it is clear to engineers.
22:53:43 [AllanJ]
discussion of volume controls native UA or scripted
22:54:33 [AllanJ]
ec: must ahve same requirements on apis, author who writes a script, must be able to write to api
22:54:57 [AllanJ]
js: need to move this to 'controls' section not in authoring
22:55:34 [AllanJ]
sh: all interdependent. spec for controls, api for changing, and audio representation.
22:56:23 [AllanJ]
jf: are we asking for stereo balance/fade controls
22:56:41 [AllanJ]
... is it in this requirement, or in the controls section.
22:57:28 [AllanJ]
sh: important for listening to 2+ audio streams. standard TS is one premixed stream,
22:58:01 [AllanJ] description is outside premixed stream, and must be intelligible
22:58:29 [AllanJ]
jf: must panning fading also smooth
22:58:45 [AllanJ]
js: this is a UA issue not authoring
22:59:35 [AllanJ]
...UA must provide the controls to allow user to adjust volume, balance, fading, audio tracks
23:00:08 [AllanJ]
jf: thinks some audio description requirements should be in controls
23:00:34 [AllanJ]
js: need to change 'author' to UA and requirements are ok
23:01:31 [AllanJ]
jf: if author writes a custom control, then it is no longer a UA issue.
23:01:41 [Zakim]
23:02:33 [AllanJ]
ec: author writes control, says ignore native control
23:03:20 [AllanJ]
sh: author should be able to write declarative statements to the api
23:04:11 [AllanJ]
...spec describes how the control behaves, not what or how it controls in the background
23:05:03 [AllanJ]
... some of these things are in multiple groups. no good way to group them because the groups are too granular
23:07:05 [AllanJ]
jf: in terms of controls, they must support the controls as outlined in section X
23:07:28 [AllanJ]
sh: just want to make sure all the controls maintained in the document somewhere
23:07:55 [AllanJ]
QUESTION: (AD-9) Is too vague, isn't it enough that the audio codec works well for voice rather than it was specifically designed for it? If not, is it Speex we want to require?
23:08:20 [AllanJ]
ec: is the requirement that the player must support more than one codec.
23:08:33 [AllanJ]
...this says nothing about the quality of the output
23:08:51 [AllanJ]
...should support a codec that supports human voice.
23:09:29 [AllanJ]
...webm only supports one codec. putting requirement for more codecs will not change it
23:09:51 [AllanJ]
jf: agree with eric.
23:10:15 [AllanJ]
sh: audio description must be sufficiently legible
23:11:04 [AllanJ]
ec: address output of audio codec for human voice, not specific codecs
23:11:20 [AllanJ]
QUESTION: (AD-11) Is the requirement the same as (AD-3), or is it a requirement on UA to be able to select the audio output device? This seems to be something usually controlled by the OS, not the UA.
23:12:07 [AllanJ]
sh: watching video with wife, one wants description the other not. its about shared audio.
23:12:51 [AllanJ]
sh: this is not the same as AD3 multiple description tracks.
23:13:09 [AllanJ]
js: multiple description tracks is different languages
23:13:33 [AllanJ]
jf: this is usually controlled by the OS not the UA
23:14:03 [AllanJ]
js: if multiple output devices, there should be a way to control these
23:14:25 [AllanJ]
QUESTION: (AD-12) There is no concept of "program" or "channel" in the spec, clarify or remove this requirement.
23:15:18 [AllanJ]
sh: if I change source on media element, want descriptions to change
23:16:10 [AllanJ]
jf: change 'channel' to 'media asset
23:17:15 [AllanJ]
ec: want a discernible pause when changing assets
23:17:28 [MikeSmithX]
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23:17:34 [AllanJ]
sh: don't want to confuse user
23:18:34 [AllanJ]
...if in the middle of description stream, and switch to a different media, want the user to know that things changed
23:20:06 [AllanJ]
jf: in a play list, things fade in and out as one starts and another stops
23:20:47 [AllanJ]
js: if scene changes but the description doesn't,
23:21:11 [AllanJ]
ec: description must stay synchronized with the parent media
23:22:34 [AllanJ]
sh: right. if a smooth break in scenes, but descriptions run into each other, it confuses the reader. like changing channel on radio quickly to make nonsense sentence
23:22:52 [AllanJ]
ec: need a distinct break when changing media
23:23:28 [AllanJ]
sh: right. in TV there is half second break on the SAP channel, but not in the main audio.
23:24:23 [AllanJ]
ec: this is good and makes sense. need to reflect it in the requirement.
23:26:25 [AllanJ]
jf: need some discernible audio gap in the description track when moving between media
23:26:45 [AllanJ]
jf: how to move forward.
23:27:25 [AllanJ]
...want to condense comments to help us move forward
23:28:21 [AllanJ]
jb: not just distill. need to capture the questions, list them, to get folks to address them.
23:28:47 [AllanJ]
...half meeting has been problem identification. this is good.
23:29:25 [AllanJ]
ec: there are a number of questions in the middle of the comments.
23:30:49 [Zakim]
23:31:02 [AllanJ]
action: JF to synthesize comments and list questions
23:31:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-48 - Synthesize comments and list questions [on John Foliot - due 2010-06-16].
23:31:34 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:31:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
23:31:35 [Zakim]
23:31:37 [Zakim]
23:31:39 [Zakim]
23:31:54 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
23:33:26 [Zakim]
23:33:31 [Zakim]
23:33:37 [Zakim]
23:33:38 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has ended
23:33:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.650.862.aaaa, Janina, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, AllanJ, +1.408.307.aabb, +44.154.558.aacc, Eric_Carlson, Sean_Hayes, +61.3.986.4.aadd, Kenny_Johar, Judy
23:33:48 [MichaelC]
action: foliot to distill results of media requirements survey
23:33:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-49 - Distill results of media requirements survey [on John Foliot - due 2010-06-16].
23:34:26 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
23:34:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:35:21 [AllanJ]
regrets: mhakkinen, gfreed
23:35:31 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:35:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
23:35:42 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
23:35:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
23:35:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JF to synthesize comments and list questions [1]
23:35:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
23:35:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: foliot to distill results of media requirements survey [2]
23:35:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in