IRC log of sparql on 2010-06-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:58:45 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/08-sparql-irc
13:58:52 [AxelPolleres]
trackbot, start meeting
13:58:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:58:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
13:58:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:58:58 [trackbot]
Date: 08 June 2010
14:00:03 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
14:00:10 [Zakim]
+kasei
14:00:42 [MattPerry]
MattPerry has joined #sparql
14:00:49 [Zakim]
+pgearon
14:00:56 [Zakim]
+AxelPolleres
14:01:19 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:19 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, pgearon, AxelPolleres
14:01:20 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:01:26 [AndyS]
zakim, IPCaller is me
14:01:26 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:01:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aaaa
14:01:47 [MattPerry]
zakim, aaaa is me
14:01:47 [Zakim]
+MattPerry; got it
14:01:48 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:01:48 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:01:49 [Zakim]
+Ivan
14:01:54 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, pgearon, AxelPolleres, AndyS, MattPerry, Ivan
14:01:56 [SteveH__]
SteveH__ has joined #sparql
14:02:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aabb
14:02:12 [Souri]
Souri has joined #sparql
14:02:14 [Zakim]
+[Garlik]
14:02:17 [AxelPolleres]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-06-08
14:02:29 [SteveH]
Zakim, [Garlik] is temporaily me
14:02:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand '[Garlik] is temporaily me', SteveH
14:02:39 [SteveH]
Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily me
14:02:39 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:02:39 [AxelPolleres]
scribe: SteveH
14:02:48 [AxelPolleres]
chair: AxelPolleres
14:02:52 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:03:03 [Zakim]
+??P33
14:03:08 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kasei, pgearon, AxelPolleres, AndyS, MattPerry, Ivan, +1.603.897.aabb, SteveH, Sandro, ??P33
14:03:22 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-06-08
14:03:30 [Souri]
zakim, aabb is me
14:03:30 [Zakim]
+Souri; got it
14:03:30 [NickH]
Zakim, ??P33 is me
14:03:31 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
14:03:33 [SteveH]
there's too much noise on the line
14:03:41 [SteveH]
Zakim, who's speaking?
14:03:44 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-06-08
14:03:51 [Zakim]
SteveH, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (8%), Sandro (38%), Ivan (20%)
14:04:05 [sandro]
better?
14:04:11 [SteveH]
sandro, yes, thanks
14:04:12 [NickH]
yes
14:04:23 [AxelPolleres]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-06-01
14:04:40 [SteveH]
+1
14:04:43 [NickH]
+1
14:04:48 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-06-01
14:05:14 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments
14:05:19 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: all comments are assigned, look at page please
14:05:28 [SteveH]
... some old ones are still open
14:05:37 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:05:43 [LeeF]
zakim, IPcaller is me
14:05:43 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:06:19 [SteveH]
... IRI creating comment, I will reply
14:06:33 [SteveH]
... doesn't look too bad, but please update
14:06:58 [AxelPolleres]
topic: liaisons
14:07:29 [SteveH]
Souri: rdf2rdb has progress, almost ready to publish
14:07:36 [AxelPolleres]
q?
14:07:47 [AxelPolleres]
ack sandro
14:07:52 [LeeF]
(I don't think the RDB group needs a UC&R review from the SPARQL WG)
14:08:13 [SteveH]
sandro: rif, today is the last day of the review period
14:08:28 [SteveH]
... egov, working on charter for linked data for govt. working group
14:08:45 [SteveH]
... lots of enthusiasm, put together some education and outreach, plus more serious stuff
14:08:52 [SteveH]
... might produce recommendations
14:09:16 [OlivierCorby]
Not able to join the telcon, the phone is out of order here ...
14:09:29 [AxelPolleres]
topic: http rdf update TC
14:09:33 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-06-07
14:09:38 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: update minutes
14:10:15 [SteveH]
... no resolutions, but base URI agreement on how it's addressed, proposed text from chime
14:10:31 [SteveH]
... will add example for when there no BASE in the payload
14:10:46 [SteveH]
... resolved terminology change re. networked rdf knowledge
14:11:04 [Souri]
UC&R FPWD for RDB2RDF: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/use-cases/
14:11:09 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/49
14:11:16 [SteveH]
... discussion about graph URIs er. ISSE-49
14:11:32 [SteveH]
... not sure what to do about URIs which [sth] when you reference them
14:11:52 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues#httpRange-14
14:12:30 [SteveH]
... want to point out that we dont want to discourage, we expect that some might allow HTTP and other protocol
14:12:30 [bglimm]
bglimm has joined #sparql
14:12:56 [SteveH]
... want to say that it might lead to ambiguity, give general warning, point to TAG issue
14:13:03 [SteveH]
... how/can we do that?
14:13:20 [SteveH]
... can we reference a TAG issue in a Rec track document?
14:13:26 [Zakim]
+ +0186528aacc
14:13:33 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:13:33 [Zakim]
sorry, bglimm, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:13:38 [AndyS]
q+
14:13:42 [SteveH]
ivan: I think the answer is yes, but not sure
14:13:46 [bglimm]
Zakim, +0186528aacc is me
14:13:46 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
14:13:52 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:13:52 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:14:06 [SteveH]
AndyS: the TAG findings aren't recs, what standing do they have
14:14:26 [SteveH]
ivan: "TAG findings" - they have no other official standing
14:14:28 [AxelPolleres]
Can we give it as an informal reference?
14:14:57 [SteveH]
sandro: we can't normatively reference them, but can informatively
14:15:25 [SteveH]
... can't say "to find out how to do this look [at TAG finding]" cos it's not a Rec
14:16:03 [Souri]
:-)
14:16:16 [sandro]
Basically it's like with Turtle and CURIEs ---- we wanted the concept, but there was no REC, so we had to write it ourselves.
14:16:16 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: either quote text, or reference it informatively
14:16:34 [sandro]
Yes, we do.
14:16:36 [AxelPolleres]
normative and informative references.
14:17:05 [AxelPolleres]
best solution is probably a combination.
14:17:07 [SteveH]
AndyS: we take textual forms from Turtle, and include them in the document
14:17:22 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: explain possible ambiguity, and informally reference
14:17:37 [bglimm]
But the Wuery spec says: This document uses the http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/turtle/ [TURTLE] data format to show each triple explicitly.
14:17:50 [bglimm]
s/Wuery/Query/
14:18:04 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: axel to convey summary to chime: explain possible ambiguity, and informally reference TAG issue.
14:18:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-255 - Convey summary to chime: explain possible ambiguity, and informally reference TAG issue. [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-06-15].
14:18:29 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:18:29 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:18:37 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: there's a red box in the document, it's enough to drop it
14:18:38 [Souri]
s/chime/Chime/
14:18:49 [SteveH]
... discussion about other terms, and distinctions
14:19:01 [AxelPolleres]
unclear "network-manipulable RDF dataset" and distinction from "graph store" and "endpoint" needs clarification
14:19:18 [AndyS]
bglimm, that's for the data in examples; not the SPARQL syntax (although that isn't as formal as I'd like)
14:19:21 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: overall doc on good track
14:19:39 [SteveH]
Topic: find possible slot for testcases call
14:19:44 [bglimm]
Ah, I thought it is for the whole doc including where parts of queries
14:19:49 [AndyS]
bglimm, c.f. "4.2 Syntax for Triple Patterns"
14:20:19 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.doodle.com/ctb2a6t3bxup8t4d
14:20:26 [bglimm]
AndyS, I see what you mean
14:20:41 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: there are several actions on collecting testcases
14:20:51 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/191
14:21:11 [SteveH]
... would be helpful to have emails pointing to testcases
14:21:27 [SteveH]
... don't need to be formal, just want to track them
14:21:40 [SteveH]
... people are responsible for collecting them
14:22:11 [SteveH]
... david, Olivier, AxelPolleres have outstanding actions
14:22:26 [SteveH]
... make sure that you fill out the poll
14:23:04 [SteveH]
Topic: Function Library
14:23:06 [AxelPolleres]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0309.html
14:23:18 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: AndyS has added several functions
14:23:44 [SteveH]
... main question is what's open
14:23:53 [SteveH]
... put some more links about this
14:24:11 [SteveH]
... one question is what about xquery and xpath F&O, we have initial list proposed by AndyS
14:24:11 [AxelPolleres]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0244.html
14:24:25 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:FunctionLibrary#Starting_Points
14:24:29 [SteveH]
... incorporated in wiki doc ^
14:24:38 [SteveH]
... and we have one more doc on the wiki
14:24:41 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:FunctionLibrary
14:24:51 [SteveH]
... also half baked
14:25:15 [SteveH]
... do we reuse URIs in F&O?
14:25:58 [SteveH]
... AFAIR, we have had some discussion about namespaces
14:26:16 [SteveH]
... keywords v's namespaced URIs
14:26:30 [SteveH]
AndyS: I don't remember that dicsussion
14:26:39 [Zakim]
-Sandro
14:26:41 [SteveH]
... there are some functions that dont exsists elsewhere
14:26:55 [SteveH]
... have to assign URIs
14:27:14 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:27:31 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: do we have a namespace already for the sparql F&O
14:27:44 [SteveH]
ivan: I did set one up.
14:28:04 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: could look at initial draft
14:28:10 [ivan]
http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql.html
14:28:36 [AxelPolleres]
that should be fine...
14:28:53 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml#func-coalesce
14:29:10 [SteveH]
ivan: it's obvious what you have to do to add more items
14:29:26 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: that would affect all the operators that are new in SPARQL
14:29:34 [SteveH]
ivan: yes
14:29:49 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: things in ยง15.4 need URIs
14:30:10 [SteveH]
ivan: I will update doc if you send me changes
14:30:29 [AndyS]
For Ivan: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml#SparqlOps
14:30:35 [kasei]
ivan, might be nice to assert rdf:type sd:Function for the functions in /ns/sparql
14:30:43 [AxelPolleres]
15.4.14 COALESCE
14:31:42 [AxelPolleres]
COALESCE, IF, IN, NOT IN, IRI, URI, BNODE, STRDT, STRLANG
14:31:44 [ivan]
q+
14:31:57 [AxelPolleres]
ack AndyS
14:31:58 [AndyS]
ack me
14:32:24 [SteveH]
ivan: better decided around a table with beer
14:32:31 [SteveH]
... new ones are all caps, old ones are not
14:32:41 [ivan]
if, in
14:32:45 [ivan]
and not IF and IN
14:32:47 [AndyS]
SPARQL is case-insenitive keywords (except for "a")
14:32:48 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: it would make sense to keep with what we had
14:32:52 [kasei]
they're all case insensitive in the language, though.
14:33:18 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: it's difficult, for the short names we have camel case
14:33:20 [SteveH]
q+
14:33:26 [ivan]
ack ivn
14:33:29 [ivan]
ack ivan
14:33:40 [kasei]
yes. was just pointing it out because we don't have URIs for the old ones yet
14:34:20 [SteveH]
ack me
14:34:23 [AxelPolleres]
camelCase seems to be the URI candidates, capital used in the definition
14:34:35 [AndyS]
Yes - the grammar uses UC for clarity. Examples use same case as section name (usually)
14:34:35 [SteveH]
capital used in grammar/examples
14:34:43 [Zakim]
-NickH
14:34:49 [SteveH]
AndyS, oh, sorry, thought it was UC in examples
14:34:56 [AndyS]
"if" looks silly
14:35:26 [AxelPolleres]
notIn
14:35:36 [SteveH]
+1 to ivan
14:35:49 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: just make it uniform
14:36:01 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: ivan to buy beers in SF
14:36:01 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan
14:36:01 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
14:36:52 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: take this to mail
14:37:07 [SteveH]
AndyS: are we putting the F&O set in this doc, or another, or somewhere else
14:37:26 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: extension to core functions which we endorse should be in Q document
14:37:36 [SteveH]
AndyS: who's going to write it
14:37:46 [Souri]
15.4.21 example needs a closing paranthesis: STRDT("123", xsd:integer
14:37:49 [SteveH]
... it will take longer if I do it
14:38:01 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: what new text do we need?
14:38:12 [SteveH]
... do we need to add examples for all these functions
14:38:14 [AndyS]
souri - already fixed (in my copy)
14:38:43 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: what's missing is the formulation, and adding examples [?]
14:38:44 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/query-1.1/rq25.xml#func-coalesce
14:40:08 [AndyS]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:FunctionLibrary
14:40:21 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: not sure about issues around sequences
14:40:34 [SteveH]
AndyS: functions in [uri] are directly relevant to SPARQL, no seuences
14:40:44 [SteveH]
... arguments all values that we grok
14:41:18 [SteveH]
... unclear what the proposed way forwards is about this list, how do we deal with rel. to F&O
14:41:24 [AxelPolleres]
3 options
14:41:25 [SteveH]
... see 3 proposals
14:41:39 [SteveH]
... 1) start from SQL
14:41:45 [LeeF]
I think the 2nd of those proposals is the best
14:41:46 [SteveH]
... 2) import a speicific set
14:41:56 [SteveH]
... 3) point to F&O equiv
14:42:32 [SteveH]
... in one there are two URIs
14:43:06 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: LeeF thinks we should import a specific set
14:43:06 [LeeF]
Is anyone wanting to advocate taking from SQL instead of XPath/XQuery ?
14:43:24 [SteveH]
... if we import we can change them slightly if needed
14:43:40 [sandro]
(I'm wondering about taking from RIF, which took option 3.)
14:43:41 [SteveH]
LeeF: not sure how much support there is to import from SQL
14:44:05 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: We have COALESCE and IF from SQL
14:44:12 [LeeF]
(i'd be fine with that approach as well, sandro. I don't know that much about the RIF function basis.)
14:44:14 [SteveH]
... strawpoll on 2) vs 3)
14:44:16 [AndyS]
Interesting -sandro - why did it do that?
14:44:28 [sandro]
q+
14:44:33 [sandro]
zakim, unmute me
14:44:33 [Zakim]
Sandro should no longer be muted
14:44:44 [SteveH]
sandro: story from RIF, having same debate
14:45:01 [SteveH]
... use URIs or make own, decided to make own URIs
14:45:16 [SteveH]
... needed to change semantics in a few places, watned to add a few things, users would like in same namesoace
14:45:24 [SteveH]
... operators don't have URIs anyway
14:45:28 [SteveH]
q+
14:45:34 [AndyS]
q+
14:45:39 [SteveH]
... should sparql and rif use same URIs
14:45:46 [SteveH]
q-
14:46:04 [SteveH]
... sparql and rif could coalesce on common uris, and they're both RDFy
14:46:13 [SteveH]
AndyS: where did you have to change the smeantics
14:46:22 [AxelPolleres]
q+ to speak chair-hat off
14:46:30 [SteveH]
sandro: hoping AxelPolleres would remember, something about sequences
14:46:48 [SteveH]
... sequences have unusual semantics
14:46:51 [AxelPolleres]
erorrs, sequences, played a role
14:46:55 [sandro]
zakim, mute me
14:46:55 [Zakim]
Sandro should now be muted
14:46:58 [AxelPolleres]
ack me
14:46:58 [Zakim]
AxelPolleres, you wanted to speak chair-hat off
14:46:59 [SteveH]
... outside of that I don't remember the differences
14:47:06 [AndyS]
q-
14:47:12 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: we had problems with errors too, no errors in RIF
14:47:30 [SteveH]
... what would we do with errors
14:47:36 [AndyS]
SPARQL is F&O evaluation
14:47:43 [sandro]
(I think the errors bit is not worth doing a different URI over, personally, but I'm not a formalist.)
14:47:55 [AndyS]
... with errors being an extension point
14:48:32 [SteveH]
... if we use own namespace we dont have to think about which ones are keywords, if it has a URI in sparql namespace it can be used in syntax
14:48:40 [AxelPolleres]
q?
14:48:47 [sandro]
q-
14:49:20 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: poll: keep F&O namespace, or give own [sparql] namespace
14:49:34 [SteveH]
1 - keep namespace
14:49:39 [SteveH]
2 - sparql ns
14:49:45 [AxelPolleres]
2
14:49:46 [pgearon]
2
14:49:48 [AndyS]
Option 2 (reuse namespace + alloc a namespace for operators)
14:49:52 [kasei]
2 (mild preference, would like to see rif+sparql convergence)
14:49:56 [MattPerry]
2
14:49:56 [bglimm]
2
14:49:57 [SteveH]
1
14:50:11 [LeeF]
0
14:50:15 [sandro]
0 unsure.....
14:50:30 [AndyS]
Option 1 (reuse namespace + alloc a namespace for operators)
14:50:47 [LeeF]
Yeah, I agree with that
14:50:50 [LeeF]
too many keywords :)
14:52:54 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: op: ones are things that can be moddled with + etc. [?]
14:53:02 [AxelPolleres]
op : + - !
14:53:19 [AxelPolleres]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009JulSep/0244.html
14:53:22 [SteveH]
"op:" has no namespace officially
14:53:37 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: we dont have a URI for them
14:53:44 [AndyS]
yes - but what about writing "op:numeric-add(?X, ?Y)"
14:54:15 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: you have to write the short form in xpath etc.
14:54:50 [SteveH]
... datatypes depenends on how it's delegates
14:55:05 [AxelPolleres]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:FunctionLibrary
14:55:23 [SteveH]
... not complete, but we should have op URI + shortcut
14:55:45 [SteveH]
... then shortcuts come from [sth]
14:56:01 [SteveH]
... should take to email, running out of time
14:56:02 [AndyS]
My pref: complete Design:FunctionLibrary as a design then take to WG.
14:56:55 [SteveH]
AndyS: I don't have any time in next 2 weeks
14:57:01 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Axel to work out http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:FunctionLibrary within 2 weeks
14:57:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-256 - Work out http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Design:FunctionLibrary within 2 weeks [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-06-15].
14:57:41 [AxelPolleres]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0311.html
14:58:03 [SteveH]
AndyS: couple of proposals, realtively decided on cardinality, want to work on details
14:58:48 [Zakim]
-LeeF
14:59:12 [SteveH]
AndyS: don't think there's enough detail to make proposal
14:59:59 [SteveH]
... matter of writing document and coming back with proposal
15:00:14 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres: as long as you know where it's going
15:00:36 [SteveH]
update next time
15:00:40 [SteveH]
+ other issues
15:00:51 [AndyS]
At risk next time: AndyS
15:01:03 [Zakim]
-bglimm
15:01:08 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
15:01:08 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
15:01:09 [Zakim]
-Ivan
15:01:10 [AxelPolleres]
adjourned
15:01:11 [Zakim]
-SteveH
15:01:15 [Zakim]
-Souri
15:01:15 [MattPerry]
quit
15:01:16 [Zakim]
-kasei
15:01:18 [Zakim]
-AndyS
15:01:19 [Zakim]
-MattPerry
15:01:21 [Zakim]
-pgearon
15:01:23 [AxelPolleres]
thanks steve for scribing...
15:01:23 [Zakim]
-Sandro
15:01:26 [SteveH]
AxelPolleres, how do I make mins from the IRC?
15:01:37 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
15:01:56 [AxelPolleres]
steve, will handle that... essentially: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
15:02:05 [SteveH]
thanks AxelPolleres
15:03:19 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
15:03:23 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:03:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were kasei, pgearon, AxelPolleres, AndyS, +1.603.897.aaaa, MattPerry, Ivan, +1.603.897.aabb, SteveH, Sandro, Souri, NickH, LeeF, bglimm
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17:02:06 [AndyS]
Apologies for any duplicate emails - I seem to "discovered a feature" of gmail and eventual (in?)consistency
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20:50:23 [kasei]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:MH-1
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