13:52:45 RRSAgent has joined #webfonts 13:52:45 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-webfonts-irc 13:52:47 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:52:47 Zakim has joined #webfonts 13:52:49 Zakim, this will be 3668 13:52:49 ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 13:52:50 Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference 13:52:50 Date: 02 June 2010 13:53:15 erik has joined #webfonts 13:56:37 IA_Fonts()10:00AM has now started 13:56:44 + +1.781.970.aaaa 13:57:25 tal has joined #webfonts 13:57:48 +ChrisL 13:57:50 + +1.425.882.aabb 13:58:00 zakim, who is noisy? 13:58:05 + +0845397aacc 13:58:10 ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.970.aaaa (69%), ChrisL (25%), +1.425.882.aabb (13%) 13:58:43 Vlad has joined #webfonts 13:59:04 + +31.70.360.aadd 13:59:04 + +1.443.895.aaee 13:59:39 ScribeNick: ChrisL 13:59:43 Chair: Vlad 13:59:49 Topic: Administrivia 13:59:55 sergeym has joined #webfonts 14:00:07 +[IPcaller] 14:00:14 abattis has joined #webfonts 14:00:53 hello, sorry i didnt get online sooner, net cafe giving me hassle, will try to dial the conf # now 14:01:03 it's hard for me to hear anything! 14:01:12 There is a form to teach Zakim what your phone number is. Please use it.zakim, who is noisy? 14:01:23 zakim, who is noisy? 14:01:40 ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.970.aaaa (40%), ChrisL (21%), [IPcaller] (49%) 14:01:55 zakim, mute +1.781 14:02:03 zakim, unmute +1.781 14:02:04 cslye has joined #webfonts 14:02:10 +1.781.970.aaaa should now be muted 14:02:19 There is a form to teach Zakim what your phone number is. Please use it. 14:02:20 +1.781.970.aaaa should no longer be muted 14:02:26 http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3 14:02:28 tiro_j has joined #webfonts 14:02:46 + +1.281.712.aaff 14:02:57 zakim, aaff is Tab 14:03:03 TabAtkins_ has joined #webfonts 14:03:11 howcome has joined #webfonts 14:03:12 +Tab; got it 14:03:23 zakim, who is here? 14:03:28 On the phone I see +1.781.970.aaaa, ChrisL, +1.425.882.aabb, +0845397aacc, +31.70.360.aadd (muted), +1.443.895.aaee, [IPcaller], Tab 14:03:30 zakim, aadd is Erik 14:03:34 zakim, +0845397aacc is jfkthame 14:03:35 + +1.510.816.aagg 14:03:43 +Erik; got it 14:03:49 On IRC I see howcome, TabAtkins_, tiro_j, cslye, davecrossland, sergeym, Vlad, tal, erik, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisL, jfkthame, jdaggett, jdaggett_afk, trackbot 14:03:52 +jfkthame; got it 14:04:10 Topic: Discuss and finalize metadata extension mechanism 14:04:13 I am now on the phone. 14:04:27 + +1.250.668.aahh 14:04:39 zakim, aahh is Christopher 14:04:39 +Christopher; got it 14:05:16 tal: It was in response to things Liam said - localization and providing flexibility in extension block 14:05:38 -Tab 14:05:41 ... itsmore verbose than what Sylvain proposed but does more 14:06:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2010AprJun/0262.html 14:07:28 chris: looks good to group by language like that 14:07:52 vlad: aim is to preserve localisation for top level and for vendor extensions, seems to do this well 14:08:05 ... and it can be compressed anyway 14:08:15 ... so verbosioty not a problem 14:08:17 +Tab 14:08:33 i like tals proposal 14:08:34 tal: discussed with sylvain, he wndered if localisation was necessary. 14:09:17 I think localization is a good option to have. 14:09:19 i believe localisation is important 14:09:28 chris: only overhead with a single language is one set of short wrapper elements, seems good to me 14:09:56 sergei: how often are font vendors adding text in multiple languages 14:10:15 john: have tried but software did not cooperate. should be possible, want to do this 14:10:38 ... not concewrned about lots and lots of alternatives, more the local language plus a couple of others 14:11:14 tal: not dealing with the font names at all, but the license data and copyright. did research and found fonts with localised entries for this sort of data 14:11:24 ... so want to localise all the things we can 14:11:47 yeah the UnB Pro fonts Gustavo Ferrier did, and the Paratype PT Sans, both had localised libre license texts 14:11:55 sergei: font often have japaese and english names, display depends on user locale 14:12:27 vlad: localisation in xml is trivial feature, can be used for font vendors to publicise their work, will tend to see more use I predict 14:12:50 +1 14:13:08 tal: other thing Liam mentioned was a block that is visible to users and one invisible for machine readable stuff 14:13:16 ... did not address that here 14:13:58 vlad: cannot prevent anyone from inserting xml that is not part of the spec. so arbitrary xml could be found. but UI unlikely to display it 14:14:23 john: isn't that what the private block is for? 14:14:31 vlad: need not even be xml 14:15:21 vlad: vendors may want xml data .... arbitrary xml will not be visible. That will satisfy the proposal that liam suggested 14:15:59 sergei: could disallow any unstandard xml. or provie a specific place for this, like a 'private' element 14:16:08 .... specific place is a good thing 14:16:26 vlad: agreed already that its not parsed unless user requests. 14:16:51 ... so only parsed at user option. if there is arbitrary xml it will not prevent other items being visible 14:17:31 john: should be well formed xml 14:18:02 didnt we already agree that poorly formed XML will be silently dropped? 14:18:52 chris: xslt or dom will look for kknown elements to display, so by default the others will not be shown 14:19:02 @dave yes we did 14:19:23 howcome: please say well formewd not valid 14:19:39 s/ewd/ed/ 14:20:30 vlad: main scope is easily implementable, easy to use extension mechanism 14:20:58 howcome: I see lots of elements and attributes 14:21:09 ... very verbose 14:21:49 chris: lang inherits so it can be set higher 14:22:23 howcome: prefer to see each group by language 14:23:04 vlad: yes, language inherits. not sure what else needs to be said 14:23:27 howcome: want to write for any language the text by just declaring the language once 14:24:21 vlad: extra number of bytes is low 14:25:02 sergei: better if the same value localised is near to each other 14:25:39 vlad: please send proposals and examples to email list. easier than coding on the phone 14:26:33 action: howcome to suggest a regrouping of localised extension syntax 14:26:34 Created ACTION-6 - Suggest a regrouping of localised extension syntax [on HÃ¥kon Wium Lie - due 2010-06-09]. 14:28:47 jfk: problem is you have to repeat the whole structure even if you only want to localise a few items 14:29:08 howcome: could do both 14:29:28 christopher: if its a choice to do one way or the other that is the most flexxible solution 14:29:47 sergei: its easier to see nothing is missing if the strings are close together 14:30:14 ??: any argument against allowing both? 14:30:38 That was me. :) 14:30:47 john: a tool might pick one or the other. no benefit to have both. agree with sergeit its better to do it tals way 14:31:07 vlad: tals suggestion does not precluse using inheritance to set language just once 14:31:45 vlad: easier to see concrete examples in email 14:32:11 so will be inherited by everything if its all in one language? 14:32:27 and will be inherited for all tags in that group? 14:32:36 @dave: yes 14:32:42 erik: would need to indicate the group equivalence explicitly with the duplicate structures method 14:33:03 and will be inherited for all children too? 14:33:13 if so, i dont quite understand howcome's point 14:33:55 "want to write for any language the text by just declaring the language once" seems possible with tals suggestion 14:34:07 chris: yes the grouped structure proosal would need keys to indicate linguistic alternates 14:34:16 erik: easier to get that from the structure 14:34:32 -[IPcaller] 14:34:46 vlad: extension mechanism as proposed seems to cover what we need. 14:35:03 vlad: suggest we accept tal's proposal 14:36:10 Topic: WOFF editorial proposals 14:37:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Jun/0000.html 14:37:19 jfk: not clear what to do with those, needs to be more fleshed out 14:37:32 vlad: its in response to action from last call 14:37:59 vlad: syntax and semsntics from appendixx to section 6 was agreed already 14:38:13 ... second is to group info on woff creation tools all together 14:38:36 ... rather than have it spread through the spec 14:39:06 ... even if its duplicated, better to have a summary with all info in one place 14:39:34 vlad: some paras in section 4 are relevant only to creation step. 14:40:20 christopher: I agree, different audiences, some will read top to bottom and some will look for only the relevant section 14:41:06 chris: easier to do this by linking 14:41:20 +??P4 14:41:21 john: how does this fir with the conformance specs 14:41:32 i finally joined the call 14:41:42 noise 14:41:49 zakim, mute ??P4 14:41:49 ??P4 should now be muted 14:42:02 zakim, ??P4 is Dave 14:42:03 +Dave; got it 14:42:06 ta 14:42:20 shitty callshop in weymouth :( 14:43:01 vlad: not saying we duplicate everything, but easier to present things in a section for creation tools, or renderers, or whatever 14:43:19 ... my opinion, not as chair 14:43:36 jfk: are we at the point where the best thing is to do an updated draft? 14:43:46 (general agreement) 14:44:25 action: jonathan to make an updated woff spec grouping conformance requirements 14:44:26 Created ACTION-7 - Make an updated woff spec grouping conformance requirements [on Jonathan Kew - due 2010-06-09]. 14:45:16 vlad: consider creating a "Recommendations" section, what tools should do, dsig, checksums - useful but its outside woff scope. its in the original font 14:45:40 ... so put it in a non-normative recommendations section 14:46:03 ... again my opinion, not as chair 14:47:00 john: would like something like that, could be in this document or a separate one. nicely stated for the average font maker and tool maker. what we can expect to be done to a font when it is WOFFed 14:47:13 vlad: could be an appendix, not a chapter 14:47:19 i support such a recommendations section of "metadata best practices for fonts to be wrapped in WOFF" 14:47:59 chris: best practices is a good idea 14:48:04 yeah, not just metadata is even better 14:48:19 paul is trying to keep ben quiet 14:48:31 oops, wrong chat :) 14:48:34 vlad: last para of sections 4 and 5 are useful but outside scope of woff spec. collect them and put in an informative appendix. not specific to metadata 14:48:51 +1 14:48:58 family issues. I need to go. 14:49:01 -Erik 14:49:29 action: jonathan to create non-normative best practices appendix 14:49:29 Created ACTION-8 - Create non-normative best practices appendix [on Jonathan Kew - due 2010-06-09]. 14:49:41 zakim, list attendees 14:49:41 As of this point the attendees have been +1.781.970.aaaa, ChrisL, +1.425.882.aabb, +31.70.360.aadd, +1.443.895.aaee, [IPcaller], +1.281.712.aaff, Tab, +1.510.816.aagg, Erik, 14:49:45 ... jfkthame, +1.250.668.aahh, Christopher, Dave 14:50:14 I am 1.510.816.aagg 14:50:18 adjourned 14:50:18 id like to say thanks to tal for inclugin he update URL in the XML exmaple 14:50:35 668.aahh is me 14:50:52 jfk: for next week, could we change topics to access controls to give more time for these edits? 14:51:07 zakim, aahh is John 14:51:07 sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'aahh' 14:51:19 vlad: yes, sure 14:51:44 Topic; Summer schedule 14:52:13 vlad: please send in your vacation info so we can schedule 14:52:25 vlad: also, maybe a summertime f2f, need to plan now 14:52:42 TUGCON in SF at end of June 14:52:46 ... maybe colocate with typecon 14:52:48 TypeCon starts Aug 17 14:52:51 TypeCon is in LA in August 14:52:56 yeah 14:53:08 i could make that 14:53:24 adjourned really this time 14:53:29 rrsagent, make minutes 14:53:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL 14:53:35 -Tab 14:53:36 - +1.510.816.aagg 14:53:39 -Dave 14:53:40 - +1.443.895.aaee 14:53:40 - +1.781.970.aaaa 14:53:41 -Christopher 14:53:42 zakim, list attendees 14:53:42 As of this point the attendees have been +1.781.970.aaaa, ChrisL, +1.425.882.aabb, +31.70.360.aadd, +1.443.895.aaee, [IPcaller], +1.281.712.aaff, Tab, +1.510.816.aagg, Erik, 14:53:45 rrsagent, make minutes 14:53:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL 14:53:45 cslye has left #webfonts 14:53:46 ... jfkthame, +1.250.668.aahh, Christopher, Dave 14:53:46 -jfkthame 14:53:48 -ChrisL 14:53:52 +Erik 14:53:54 bye 14:53:59 -Erik 14:54:03 davecrossland has left #webfonts 14:54:07 tal has left #webfonts 14:54:16 - +1.425.882.aabb 14:54:17 IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended 14:54:19 Attendees were +1.781.970.aaaa, ChrisL, +1.425.882.aabb, +31.70.360.aadd, +1.443.895.aaee, [IPcaller], +1.281.712.aaff, Tab, +1.510.816.aagg, Erik, jfkthame, +1.250.668.aahh, 14:54:21 ... Christopher, Dave 14:55:04 Present: Vlad, Tal, Erik, Howcome, Sergei, Dave, Chris, Jonathan, Tab, Christopher, John 14:55:07 rrsagent, make minutes 14:55:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL 14:57:58 erik has left #webfonts 16:06:51 howcome has left #webfonts 17:03:17 Zakim has left #webfonts