21:58:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:58:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-html-a11y-irc
21:58:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
21:58:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
21:58:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
21:58:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
21:58:36 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
21:58:36 <trackbot> Date: 02 June 2010
21:58:47 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0008.html
21:58:51 <MichaelC> chair: John_Foliot
21:59:05 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
21:59:26 <janina> zakim, call janina
21:59:26 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
21:59:29 <MichaelC> regrets: Markku_Hakkinen, Geoff_Freed, Laura_Carlson
22:00:30 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 2119
22:00:30 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM
22:00:38 <MichaelC> zakim, who's on the phone?
22:00:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.862.aaaa, +1.408.307.aabb, Janina, Michael_Cooper
22:01:01 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is John_Foliot
22:01:01 <Zakim> +John_Foliot; got it
22:01:06 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Eric_Carlson
22:01:06 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson; got it
22:01:28 <mkobayas> mkobayas has joined #html-a11y
22:01:41 <Zakim> + +0154558aacc
22:03:54 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
22:04:11 <Zakim> +Judy
22:04:37 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
22:04:37 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Sean_Hayes
22:04:37 <Zakim> +Sean_Hayes; got it
22:04:38 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
22:04:38 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
22:04:40 <Zakim> +Mike
22:05:00 <MikeSmith> Zakim, Mike is me
22:05:00 <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
22:05:21 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
22:05:21 <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
22:06:21 <janina> scribe: janina
22:06:44 <janina> john: let's start with open actions review
22:07:28 <janina> john: judy's actions?
22:08:06 <janina> judy: have been working on a comparison to iso, seems orthogonal
22:08:42 <janina> judy: will post my conclusions
22:09:50 <janina> judy: so complete on iso comparison, but not on checking with other key individuals
22:10:36 <janina> judy: also unsure how to engage external people effectively without overwhelming them
22:11:22 <janina> judy: while action wasn't recroded, i did some work on the disability language in the doc, and will still complete that
22:11:54 <janina> john: is frank here?
22:11:57 <janina> [silence]
22:13:01 <janina> zakim, next topic
22:13:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next topic', janina
22:13:15 <janina> topic: requirements document review
22:13:56 <janina> john: john: not sure how to break our log jam and move forward
22:14:40 <janina> john: much media will be pushed via the net, whether via specialized ua, or a general browser, our doc is important
22:15:06 <Zakim> + +61.3.986.4.aadd
22:15:19 <janina> john: we don't have the luxury to continue debating the doc, though
22:15:51 <janina> john: our survey was to make sure our doc is complete
22:16:08 <janina> john: think going through the doc detail by detail is premature
22:16:30 <janina> eric: perhaps i misunderstood what our purpose was in these requirements
22:16:30 <MichaelC> zakim, aadd is Kenny_Johar
22:16:30 <Zakim> +Kenny_Johar; got it
22:16:47 <janina> eric: i understood that these would be required of any ua that implemented html5 media
22:17:33 <janina> john: my understanding, from the a11y side, is to fully participate in consumption of this media
22:17:39 <janina> q!
22:17:42 <janina> q+
22:17:52 <MikeSmith> I think other implementors are liking to view requirements in the same way that Eric just described -- as implementation requirements
22:18:32 <janina> john: for instance, sign-language differs from country to country
22:18:45 <Sean> Sean has joined #html-a11y
22:19:21 <janina> john: it'll be a tricky balancing
22:19:47 <janina> shawn: i think a lot of our requirements aren't technically difficult
22:19:54 <janina> ack s
22:20:29 <janina> eric: not so sure
22:21:23 <janina> eric: hard to decode on small platform
22:21:30 <janina> shawn: but there are other ways to achieve this
22:25:38 <janina> janina: we need it in the spec so that it can be covered
22:25:59 <Judy> q+
22:26:05 <janina> eric: but, even on the desktop smil2 is lots of work
22:26:18 <janina> eric: so not necessarily easy to do
22:26:43 <janina> eric: are these rfc2119 musts?
22:26:47 <Judy> q+ to say that's why we separated out what the user needs vs how they can be technically achieved, so we wouldn't go into that
22:27:21 <janina> shawn: not necessarily that we need smil, but that we need the ability to do these things
22:27:44 <janina> judy: we specifically separated user needs to avoid this conundrum
22:27:53 <janina> eric: but we need to discuss what is required
22:27:58 <janina> judy: absolutely agree
22:28:01 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
22:28:01 <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
22:28:52 <janina> eric: my concern is that 'requirement' rfc2119 'must' on the user agent
22:29:31 <janina> john: i think everyone here is realistic
22:29:46 <janina> john: we should remember the concept of "graceful degradation"
22:30:49 <janina> john: yes, going back to the described video example, it's a balancing thing here too
22:32:07 <janina> john: some kind of switching mechanism may be needed between a generalized broser and a more specialized player ua
22:33:12 <MikeSmith> q+ what we ultimately need in regard to the spec is a specific (sub)set of requirements for HTML UAs
22:33:14 <janina> janina: it's a question of what html5 wants to be, if a rich media platform, all these requirements will be needed somewhere, though probably almost never on any individual content item
22:33:16 <MikeSmith> q+ to say what we ultimately need in regard to the spec is a specific (sub)set of requirements for HTML UAs
22:33:39 <janina> ack ja
22:33:48 <janina> ack ju
22:33:48 <Zakim> Judy, you wanted to say that's why we separated out what the user needs vs how they can be technically achieved, so we wouldn't go into that
22:34:23 <janina> judy: we keep hearing the question of whether we need to prioritize these
22:34:57 <janina> judy: should we discuss prioritization?
22:35:15 <janina> john: also my question in some ways
22:35:42 <Judy> q+
22:36:09 <janina> john: a bit disappointed in so few responses
22:36:25 <Judy> q+ to then ask whether there are things that we could do with the call today that would help people get through their surveys more easily
22:36:31 <Judy> ack M
22:36:31 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say what we ultimately need in regard to the spec is a specific (sub)set of requirements for HTML UAs
22:36:52 <janina> mike: i think eric's response will be typical of browser developers
22:37:10 <janina> mike: the spec provides conformance criteria
22:37:53 <janina> mike: if there are requirements on something other than browsers, then it's not about html
22:38:34 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
22:38:34 <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
22:39:45 <janina> janina: i can support rfc2119 should, but the spec needs to comprehend most of these because the intent seems to be a full gammut of media hosted via html
22:40:27 <janina> john: so our experience to date has been that addons and plugins may play something launched from the browser
22:42:13 <janina> john: expect the browser will be more limited janina: not sure that browser may need to drive it all
22:43:08 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
22:43:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Janina, Michael_Cooper, Sean_Hayes, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), Kenny_Johar
22:43:32 <janina> judy: want to raise a different point ...
22:43:39 <MichaelC> q?
22:43:56 <janina> judy: want to come back to the question of what will help move forward
22:44:27 <janina> judy: only one person on this call has filled out the survey, so can we ask a new deadline for survey?
22:45:31 <janina> john: so, is this a wrong understanding of where we're headed?
22:45:34 <janina> eric: what?
22:46:21 <janina> john: html
22:47:06 <janina> john: is should language overly onorous
22:47:34 <janina> eric: seems we want interoperable content on the web, so a spec that all user agents that most people use will implement
22:48:01 <janina> eric; so description of any feature in the spec needs to be so well described that it will be implemented consistently
22:48:37 <janina> shawn: but it's about how we capture author intent, not how user agents provide it
22:48:52 <janina> shawn: roughly the same way sounds ok, but not exactly the same way my competitor does
22:49:27 <janina> eric: so spec doesn't say how to do some thing, but what it should do
22:49:38 <janina> eric: so external file format needs specification
22:50:01 <janina> john: so, eric, you mentioned multiple audio streams unsupportable on some devices today
22:50:36 <janina> john: so maybe not today, but who knows about a year from now? I recall touch interfaces were experimental just a few years ago
22:51:45 <janina> john: we just don't want today's device limitations constrain our specification of what's needed
22:52:08 <janina> shawn: so there's an issue of balance between providing the data in a form that something can be done with it
22:52:22 <janina> shawn: so that's authoring--give the data in a usable way
22:52:28 <janina> shawn: the must of what the content supports
22:52:34 <janina> shawn: and the should of what the ua does
22:52:41 <janina> shawn: we need to capture the musts
22:52:46 <janina> john: agree
22:52:49 <janina> janina well said
22:53:23 <janina> john: do we have agreement of where to go with this?
22:53:23 <Judy> q+
22:53:29 <janina> silence -- taken as ascent
22:53:48 <janina> john: so, judy ...
22:53:50 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
22:53:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, Janina, Michael_Cooper, Sean_Hayes, Judy, MikeSmith (muted), Kenny_Johar
22:55:00 <janina> judy: i expect so few have completed the form because there's so much to do in completing it
22:55:21 <janina> shawn: will do, but want weekend
22:55:43 <janina> janina: ditto
22:55:49 <janina> kenny: end of today
22:56:01 <janina> john: by monday
22:56:25 <MikeSmith> Zakim, unmute me
22:56:25 <Zakim> MikeSmith should no longer be muted
22:56:35 <janina> mike: don't plan to respond
22:56:45 <janina> michael: don't feel qualified on this
22:56:54 <MikeSmith> Zakim, mute me
22:56:54 <Zakim> MikeSmith should now be muted
22:56:56 <janina> judy: monday is better for me
22:57:55 <janina> john: so can we extend this until monday?
22:58:18 <janina> john: and we need to send around another explanation that we want to capture user requirements
22:58:33 <Judy> +1 to accept input via email as well
22:59:06 <janina> janina: extend to 23:59 boston time
22:59:15 <janina> s/time/time monday/
22:59:33 <janina> john: so we should have more complete results next wednesday
23:00:33 <Judy> janina: not sure that's the correct breakdown
23:00:53 <Judy> ...Sean Hayes helped us understand constaints around the authored requirements
23:00:58 <Zakim> -Kenny_Johar
23:01:02 <Judy> ...the must part might be on what the spec provides
23:01:15 <Judy> ...maybe the should are what the user agent can do
23:02:03 <Judy> ...if this is going to be a media platform, then we don't want the breakdown to be 'we can do text descriptions but we can't provide for audio description tracks"
23:03:16 <Judy> Janina: if you don't have a way to support how you implement something in the spec then you're nowhere
23:06:09 <janina> janina: i'm not clear that prioritizing these is the right way to go
23:08:49 <JF> Janina: if HTML5 is to become the platform for media, then we need to ensure that we have a means to capture all of these requirements, alternatives and requirements specified
23:09:36 <janina> john: don't disagree, but wonder whether we should start with author or 'must and should'
23:09:51 <janina> john: think the latter because of what the engineers are saying
23:10:33 <janina> john: think we should start with user agent requirements
23:11:25 <janina> john: if our user reqs doc is more or less complete, i suggest our next discussion is ua requirements
23:12:46 <Judy> q+
23:15:54 <Judy> q-
23:17:00 <JF> Sean: next step is to turn user requirements to tech requirements
23:17:35 <JF> Eric: next step is to get clarification of some of the user requirements
23:17:42 <JF> Sean: agrees with Eric
23:17:58 <janina> shawn: next step is to turn these into tech reqs, then to decide what's on content and what's on ua
23:18:16 <janina> eric: think we first need to agree on the user reqs
23:20:26 <janina> john: so that should be our agenda for next week--item by item discussion and sign off
23:20:59 <janina> john: any other business, questions for now?
23:21:20 <janina> john: thanks to everyone!
23:21:21 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop me
23:21:21 <Zakim> MikeSmith is being disconnected
23:21:22 <Zakim> -MikeSmith
23:21:23 <Zakim> -Sean_Hayes
23:21:26 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
23:21:27 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
23:21:27 <Zakim> -Judy
23:21:27 <janina> zakim, bye
23:21:27 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:21:28 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.650.862.aaaa, Janina, +1.408.307.aabb, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot, Eric_Carlson, +0154558aacc, Judy, Sean_Hayes, MikeSmith,
23:21:31 <Zakim> ... +61.3.986.4.aadd, Kenny_Johar
23:21:34 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:21:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/06/02-html-a11y-minutes.html janina