IRC log of prov-xg on 2010-05-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:50:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
14:50:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/28-prov-xg-irc
14:50:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:50:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov-xg
14:50:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 98765
14:50:39 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
14:50:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
14:50:40 [trackbot]
Date: 28 May 2010
14:50:46 [YolandaG]
Zakim, this will be inc_provxg
14:50:46 [Zakim]
ok, YolandaG, I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM already started
14:51:26 [YolandaG]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010May/0020.html
14:51:40 [YolandaG]
chair: Yolanda Gil
14:52:30 [SamCoppens]
SamCoppens has joined #prov-xg
14:52:35 [Zakim]
+Jerry_Hobbs
14:54:07 [YolandaG]
zakim, Jerry_Hobbs is really me
14:54:07 [Zakim]
+YolandaG; got it
14:55:59 [kai]
kai has joined #prov-xg
14:57:26 [Zakim]
+??P2
14:57:36 [kai]
zakim, +??P2 is really me
14:57:36 [Zakim]
sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2'
14:57:43 [Irini]
Irini has joined #prov-xg
14:57:46 [michaelp]
michaelp has joined #prov-xg
14:57:51 [kai]
zakim, P2 is really me
14:57:51 [Zakim]
sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'
14:58:00 [Jose]
Jose has joined #prov-xg
14:58:01 [kai]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see YolandaG, ??P2
14:58:08 [dgarijo]
dgarijo has joined #prov-xg
14:58:24 [kai]
zakim, ??P2 is really me
14:58:24 [Zakim]
+kai; got it
14:58:36 [kai]
zakim, mute me
14:58:36 [Zakim]
kai should now be muted
14:58:46 [Zakim]
+michaelp
14:59:02 [olaf]
olaf has joined #prov-xg
14:59:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.619.524.aaaa
14:59:07 [smiles]
smiles has joined #prov-xg
14:59:19 [Zakim]
+??P6
14:59:26 [smiles]
zakim, ??P6 is me
14:59:26 [Zakim]
+smiles; got it
14:59:32 [ivan]
ivan has joined #prov-xg
14:59:46 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:59:46 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:59:47 [Zakim]
+Ivan
14:59:52 [Zakim]
+ +03491334aabb
15:00:13 [Zakim]
+olaf
15:00:21 [Zakim]
+raphael
15:00:23 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:00:26 [Christine]
Christine has joined #prov-xg
15:00:28 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:00:47 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
15:00:56 [Zakim]
+Irini
15:00:56 [dgarijo]
zakim, +[IPcaller] is really me
15:00:57 [Zakim]
sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
15:01:04 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:01:16 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
15:01:21 [pgroth_]
pgroth_ has joined #prov-xg
15:01:27 [Zakim]
+??P15
15:01:35 [SamCoppens]
zakim, [IPcaller.a] is SamCoppens
15:01:35 [Zakim]
+SamCoppens; got it
15:01:38 [Jose]
zakim, +03491334aabb is Jose
15:01:38 [Zakim]
+Jose; got it
15:02:15 [Christine]
zakim, +??15 is Christine
15:02:15 [Zakim]
sorry, Christine, I do not recognize a party named '+??15'
15:02:36 [Christine]
zakim, +??P15 is Christine
15:02:36 [Zakim]
sorry, Christine, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15'
15:02:52 [Yogesh]
Yogesh has joined #prov-xg
15:03:37 [YolandaG]
scribe: Irini
15:03:46 [pgroth_]
slides at http://www.slideshare.net/troncy/provenance-for-multimedia
15:03:53 [dgarijo]
thanks
15:04:04 [Irini]
Slides from Raphael: http://www.slideshare.net/troncy/provenance-for-multimedia
15:04:17 [Irini]
provenance and multimedia
15:05:07 [Irini]
common scenario : mark & annotate
15:06:09 [Irini]
Semantic Web, instead of annotating with keywords, annotate with URIs both for properties and resources
15:11:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.608.aacc
15:12:29 [Irini]
In order to capture provenance, the naive approach uses RDF reification
15:13:41 [Irini]
Advanced approach: use COMM/M3O to capture provenance
15:14:01 [Irini]
can be recorded manually or be machine producible
15:14:54 [Irini]
complex RDF graphs can be produced from the provenance patterns
15:16:37 [pgroth_]
not really...
15:16:57 [pgroth_]
+q
15:17:37 [Irini]
Yolanda: is this the approach taken in the W3C multimedia group? what is the community represented?
15:18:09 [Irini]
Raphael: not W3C multimedia group. Prefer not to work with more complex patterns
15:18:36 [Irini]
community: multimedia community interested in semantics
15:19:31 [Irini]
Raphael: there are actions to bridge the approaches between simple and more complex models
15:19:55 [Irini]
Yolanda raises the issue of the mapping between the vocabularies
15:20:16 [Irini]
multimedia group: mappings between vocabularies when those overlap
15:22:05 [Irini]
two step approach: find the vocabularies that they overlap, talk to the authors to comprehend the meaning, and in the second step, provide a formal language, or an API, or a natural language explanation of the mappings. Multimedia annotation group will publish the set of mappings informally, and will request the formal mapping between the vocabularies.
15:22:18 [JimM]
JimM has joined #prov-xg
15:23:01 [YolandaG]
q+
15:23:05 [Irini]
Paul Groth: problem in provenance is how to "point" in complex objects to have fine grained provenance. Are there approaches for doing this?
15:23:08 [pgroth_]
q-
15:23:21 [Irini]
Raphael: MPEG-7 is good for compound objects in multimedia
15:23:45 [Zakim]
+??P21
15:23:45 [Irini]
Raphael: result is the XML document that describes the decomposition introducing decomposition
15:23:55 [Zakim]
- +1.619.524.aaaa
15:24:23 [Irini]
Raphael: Media fragments working group deals with this to point directly to the fragment of the image/video/audio
15:24:42 [pgroth_]
so the movement is towards using urls
15:24:52 [afreitas]
afreitas has joined #prov-xg
15:24:56 [Irini]
Raphael: in the case of XML, you can use the URIs
15:25:07 [raphael]
... + XPATH expression
15:25:17 [raphael]
q?
15:25:37 [raphael]
zakim, ack YolandaG
15:25:37 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
15:26:19 [Irini]
Yolanda: is there interest or is there work in describing the processes that are done on the multimedia content?
15:28:43 [Irini]
Raphael: important use case. The pattern approach works if one wants to model transformations on the image. It is important to track the changes operated on the images. News agencies: use the metadata of the photo to publish photos -- people change the metadata. they want to detect whether an image has been changed or altered in any way.
15:28:59 [pgroth_]
+q
15:29:50 [Irini]
Paul: are there standards for embedding such metadata in images? JPEG has attribute value pairs. Are there standards for more structured metadata?
15:30:37 [ivan]
q+
15:30:42 [pgroth_]
p-
15:30:46 [pgroth_]
q-
15:30:51 [Irini]
Raphael:No standards for storing this information
15:31:25 [pgroth_]
xmp
15:31:26 [pgroth_]
?
15:31:27 [pgroth_]
right
15:31:55 [pgroth_]
yes you can
15:31:55 [Irini]
Ivan: are there tools to add metadata easily?
15:31:57 [pgroth_]
python?
15:32:05 [raphael]
http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/PhotoRDF/thumbnails-xmp
15:32:34 [Irini]
Raphael: yes possible: links is http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/PhotoRDF/thumbnails-xmp
15:32:39 [Irini]
(example link)
15:32:46 [YolandaG]
q+
15:32:54 [raphael]
zakim, ack ivan
15:32:54 [Zakim]
I see YolandaG on the speaker queue
15:33:53 [Irini]
Yolanda: what is the state of the art utilization of technologies for verifying properties of the image
15:35:42 [Irini]
Raphael: exist declarative ways of representing securitty but can be embeded in the image. Multimedia community is based on the comparison of pixels of the image and the camera used to take the image (a kind of signature of the image). Also blobs are compared (8x8 pictures). Many techniques all rely on purely comparing pixels.
15:35:53 [pgroth_]
very interesting
15:36:28 [Irini]
Yolanda: is there a possible connection with the provenance group and groups that Media Annotation Group ?
15:36:47 [Irini]
Raphael: yes, if we could attach provenance around the annotations of the picture
15:37:04 [Irini]
Raphael: has proposed the use of a Named Graph or a vocabulary
15:37:39 [Irini]
Raphael: it is not clear which is the appropriate use case.
15:38:10 [Irini]
Raphael: bring someone from the Media Annotation Group to talk to us about the vocabularies used and the mappings.
15:38:17 [pgroth_]
do they know about our requirements doc?
15:38:31 [Irini]
Raphael proposed the chair of Media Annotation Group.
15:38:45 [pgroth_]
I wonder if it reflects their requirements for provenance
15:39:26 [Irini]
Raphael: need for more communication to understand between the two groups.
15:39:43 [Irini]
(to establish an understanding)
15:40:28 [pgroth_]
yeah not me :-)
15:42:41 [Irini]
Jose Manuel abt Internet Architecture trust and privacy
15:43:09 [Irini]
Jose Manuel: gave a talk abt the provenance and challenges w.r.t. trust and privacy
15:43:24 [YolandaG]
Jose Manuel's email and pointers are at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010May/0009.html
15:44:16 [Irini]
interesting feedback regarding the role of provenance w.r.t. accountability and policies. Systems in the cloud take data from people and propagate data with policies that are not clear.
15:44:29 [Irini]
European Directive abt the use of private data.
15:44:48 [Irini]
Provenance can be used to establish accountability of systems w.r.t. existing policies.
15:44:59 [Irini]
Community is interested in attribution as well.
15:45:30 [Irini]
Interested to record who did what in a specific case and who is responsible for some actions in the Internet
15:46:03 [Irini]
In Future Internet assembly -- discussion on the Future Internet Infrastructure.
15:46:30 [Irini]
Important to monitor the movements of data in order to optimize the protocols for FI infrastructure
15:46:56 [Irini]
Positive Reaction -- Raphael was invited to Incotrust(?) workshop
15:47:17 [pgroth_]
Jose Manuel
15:47:32 [Irini]
(thanks)
15:47:57 [Irini]
important to understand the processes used to manipulate the data
15:49:24 [Irini]
Invited R. Wright and J. Clark for a talk in the provenance inc. group Teleconf. Exists a potential to establish a collaboration with these security-related groups.
15:51:00 [Irini]
Jose Manuel: Incotrust workshop has participants from a number of countries to work on secutity/privacy/trust
15:52:40 [Irini]
Jose Manuel: people talk all the time abt provenance (attribution, accountability) w/out talking abt this specifically
15:53:14 [Irini]
Olaf: Abt Provenance Vocabulary mappings
15:53:14 [olaf]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings
15:54:10 [Irini]
If Common terms exist, use the provenance related OPM terms
15:54:24 [Irini]
If Common terms exist between vocabularies, use the provenance related OPM terms
15:54:50 [Irini]
for mappin terms use the skos vocabulary
15:55:05 [Irini]
wanting to enable gap analysis
15:55:54 [Irini]
How to proceed:
15:56:16 [Irini]
how can the mappings be described (as an RDF document?)
15:56:53 [Irini]
Is the exercise done? should we stop the exercise or based on the identified gaps increase the number of common terms?
15:57:47 [raphael]
I think it is a good idea to have an RDF representation of the mappings
15:58:27 [Irini]
Yolanda: what did Olaf learnt from the exercise so far
15:59:00 [Irini]
Olaf: vocabularies he worked with are more specific than OPM has
15:59:05 [michaelp]
q+
15:59:18 [Irini]
Olaf worked with # prv: Provenance Vocabulary and [?]
16:00:00 [Irini]
[?] is# cs: Changeset Vocabulary
16:00:46 [Irini]
what is missing are concepts related to time from Changeset and not represented in the common terms here.
16:02:04 [Irini]
michaelp: OPM different approach in handling provenance from what the domain vocabularies have
16:03:35 [ivan]
q+
16:03:59 [Irini]
Yolanda: exercise is helpful for us and others
16:04:01 [pgroth_]
I had feedback today that it was very helpful
16:04:01 [michaelp]
q-
16:04:34 [Irini]
Yolanda: suggests adding documentation
16:05:01 [Irini]
Yolanda: suggests adding context to the information presented
16:05:37 [ivan]
q-
16:06:08 [ivan]
q+
16:06:09 [Jose]
+q
16:06:29 [ivan]
ack YolandaG
16:06:31 [Irini]
Yolanda: look at the dimensions of provenance and associate the provenance terms with these dimensions
16:07:02 [Irini]
Ivan: RDF descriptions of the mappings is very useful.
16:07:24 [Irini]
Ivan: important to have the bridge from one vocabulary to the other
16:08:24 [Irini]
Olaf: understands the usefulness of the exercise -- may be redefining the meaning of the terms in the original vocabs.
16:08:39 [Irini]
Ivan: may be consult the editors of the original vocabs.
16:09:04 [pgroth_]
we're over time :-)
16:09:06 [Irini]
Olaf: could do this for models and vocabs of editors who participate in our group
16:09:21 [Jose]
q+
16:09:58 [Zakim]
-??P15
16:10:01 [Irini]
Jose: experiment to highlight the black spots in vocabs to defining provenance.
16:10:10 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
16:10:11 [Zakim]
-YolandaG
16:10:11 [Zakim]
-SamCoppens
16:10:12 [Zakim]
-Ivan
16:10:12 [Zakim]
-??P21
16:10:13 [Irini]
Yolanda:
16:10:14 [Zakim]
-raphael
16:10:14 [Zakim]
-smiles
16:10:15 [Zakim]
-michaelp
16:10:17 [Zakim]
-olaf
16:10:19 [Zakim]
-??P10
16:10:21 [Zakim]
-Irini
16:10:23 [Zakim]
-Jose
16:10:25 [Zakim]
-kai
16:10:27 [Zakim]
- +1.518.608.aacc
16:10:29 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended
16:10:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were YolandaG, kai, michaelp, +1.619.524.aaaa, smiles, Ivan, olaf, raphael, [IPcaller], Irini, SamCoppens, Jose, +1.518.608.aacc
16:11:51 [Irini]
rrsagent, set log public
16:11:57 [Irini]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/28-prov-xg-minutes.html Irini
16:12:04 [Irini]
trackbot, end telcon
16:12:04 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:12:04 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:12:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:12:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/28-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
16:12:06 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:12:06 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items