IRC log of prov-xg on 2010-05-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:50:34 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg

14:50:35 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/28-prov-xg-irc

14:50:36 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:50:37 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #prov-xg

14:50:38 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 98765

14:50:39 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes

14:50:39 [trackbot]

Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference

14:50:40 [trackbot]

Date: 28 May 2010

14:50:46 [YolandaG]

Zakim, this will be inc_provxg

14:50:46 [Zakim]

ok, YolandaG, I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM already started

14:51:26 [YolandaG]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010May/0020.html

14:51:40 [YolandaG]

chair: Yolanda Gil

14:52:30 [SamCoppens]

SamCoppens has joined #prov-xg

14:52:35 [Zakim]

+Jerry_Hobbs

14:54:07 [YolandaG]

zakim, Jerry_Hobbs is really me

14:54:07 [Zakim]

+YolandaG; got it

14:55:59 [kai]

kai has joined #prov-xg

14:57:26 [Zakim]

+??P2

14:57:36 [kai]

zakim, +??P2 is really me

14:57:36 [Zakim]

sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2'

14:57:43 [Irini]

Irini has joined #prov-xg

14:57:46 [michaelp]

michaelp has joined #prov-xg

14:57:51 [kai]

zakim, P2 is really me

14:57:51 [Zakim]

sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'

14:58:00 [Jose]

Jose has joined #prov-xg

14:58:01 [kai]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:58:01 [Zakim]

On the phone I see YolandaG, ??P2

14:58:08 [dgarijo]

dgarijo has joined #prov-xg

14:58:24 [kai]

zakim, ??P2 is really me

14:58:24 [Zakim]

+kai; got it

14:58:36 [kai]

zakim, mute me

14:58:36 [Zakim]

kai should now be muted

14:58:46 [Zakim]

+michaelp

14:59:02 [olaf]

olaf has joined #prov-xg

14:59:05 [Zakim]

+ +1.619.524.aaaa

14:59:07 [smiles]

smiles has joined #prov-xg

14:59:19 [Zakim]

+??P6

14:59:26 [smiles]

zakim, ??P6 is me

14:59:26 [Zakim]

+smiles; got it

14:59:32 [ivan]

ivan has joined #prov-xg

14:59:46 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:59:46 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:59:47 [Zakim]

+Ivan

14:59:52 [Zakim]

+ +03491334aabb

15:00:13 [Zakim]

+olaf

15:00:21 [Zakim]

+raphael

15:00:23 [Zakim]

+??P10

15:00:26 [Christine]

Christine has joined #prov-xg

15:00:28 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:00:47 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

15:00:56 [Zakim]

+Irini

15:00:56 [dgarijo]

zakim, +[IPcaller] is really me

15:00:57 [Zakim]

sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'

15:01:04 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:01:16 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller.a]

15:01:21 [pgroth_]

pgroth_ has joined #prov-xg

15:01:27 [Zakim]

+??P15

15:01:35 [SamCoppens]

zakim, [IPcaller.a] is SamCoppens

15:01:35 [Zakim]

+SamCoppens; got it

15:01:38 [Jose]

zakim, +03491334aabb is Jose

15:01:38 [Zakim]

+Jose; got it

15:02:15 [Christine]

zakim, +??15 is Christine

15:02:15 [Zakim]

sorry, Christine, I do not recognize a party named '+??15'

15:02:36 [Christine]

zakim, +??P15 is Christine

15:02:36 [Zakim]

sorry, Christine, I do not recognize a party named '+??P15'

15:02:52 [Yogesh]

Yogesh has joined #prov-xg

15:03:37 [YolandaG]

scribe: Irini

15:03:46 [pgroth_]

slides at http://www.slideshare.net/troncy/provenance-for-multimedia

15:03:53 [dgarijo]

thanks

15:04:04 [Irini]

Slides from Raphael: http://www.slideshare.net/troncy/provenance-for-multimedia

15:04:17 [Irini]

provenance and multimedia

15:05:07 [Irini]

common scenario : mark & annotate

15:06:09 [Irini]

Semantic Web, instead of annotating with keywords, annotate with URIs both for properties and resources

15:11:22 [Zakim]

+ +1.518.608.aacc

15:12:29 [Irini]

In order to capture provenance, the naive approach uses RDF reification

15:13:41 [Irini]

Advanced approach: use COMM/M3O to capture provenance

15:14:01 [Irini]

can be recorded manually or be machine producible

15:14:54 [Irini]

complex RDF graphs can be produced from the provenance patterns

15:16:37 [pgroth_]

not really...

15:16:57 [pgroth_]

+q

15:17:37 [Irini]

Yolanda: is this the approach taken in the W3C multimedia group? what is the community represented?

15:18:09 [Irini]

Raphael: not W3C multimedia group. Prefer not to work with more complex patterns

15:18:36 [Irini]

community: multimedia community interested in semantics

15:19:31 [Irini]

Raphael: there are actions to bridge the approaches between simple and more complex models

15:19:55 [Irini]

Yolanda raises the issue of the mapping between the vocabularies

15:20:16 [Irini]

multimedia group: mappings between vocabularies when those overlap

15:22:05 [Irini]

two step approach: find the vocabularies that they overlap, talk to the authors to comprehend the meaning, and in the second step, provide a formal language, or an API, or a natural language explanation of the mappings. Multimedia annotation group will publish the set of mappings informally, and will request the formal mapping between the vocabularies.

15:22:18 [JimM]

JimM has joined #prov-xg

15:23:01 [YolandaG]

q+

15:23:05 [Irini]

Paul Groth: problem in provenance is how to "point" in complex objects to have fine grained provenance. Are there approaches for doing this?

15:23:08 [pgroth_]

q-

15:23:21 [Irini]

Raphael: MPEG-7 is good for compound objects in multimedia

15:23:45 [Zakim]

+??P21

15:23:45 [Irini]

Raphael: result is the XML document that describes the decomposition introducing decomposition

15:23:55 [Zakim]

- +1.619.524.aaaa

15:24:23 [Irini]

Raphael: Media fragments working group deals with this to point directly to the fragment of the image/video/audio

15:24:42 [pgroth_]

so the movement is towards using urls

15:24:52 [afreitas]

afreitas has joined #prov-xg

15:24:56 [Irini]

Raphael: in the case of XML, you can use the URIs

15:25:07 [raphael]

... + XPATH expression

15:25:17 [raphael]

q?

15:25:37 [raphael]

zakim, ack YolandaG

15:25:37 [Zakim]

I see no one on the speaker queue

15:26:19 [Irini]

Yolanda: is there interest or is there work in describing the processes that are done on the multimedia content?

15:28:43 [Irini]

Raphael: important use case. The pattern approach works if one wants to model transformations on the image. It is important to track the changes operated on the images. News agencies: use the metadata of the photo to publish photos -- people change the metadata. they want to detect whether an image has been changed or altered in any way.

15:28:59 [pgroth_]

+q

15:29:50 [Irini]

Paul: are there standards for embedding such metadata in images? JPEG has attribute value pairs. Are there standards for more structured metadata?

15:30:37 [ivan]

q+

15:30:42 [pgroth_]

p-

15:30:46 [pgroth_]

q-

15:30:51 [Irini]

Raphael:No standards for storing this information

15:31:25 [pgroth_]

xmp

15:31:26 [pgroth_]

?

15:31:27 [pgroth_]

right

15:31:55 [pgroth_]

yes you can

15:31:55 [Irini]

Ivan: are there tools to add metadata easily?

15:31:57 [pgroth_]

python?

15:32:05 [raphael]

http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/PhotoRDF/thumbnails-xmp

15:32:34 [Irini]

Raphael: yes possible: links is http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/PhotoRDF/thumbnails-xmp

15:32:39 [Irini]

(example link)

15:32:46 [YolandaG]

q+

15:32:54 [raphael]

zakim, ack ivan

15:32:54 [Zakim]

I see YolandaG on the speaker queue

15:33:53 [Irini]

Yolanda: what is the state of the art utilization of technologies for verifying properties of the image

15:35:42 [Irini]

Raphael: exist declarative ways of representing securitty but can be embeded in the image. Multimedia community is based on the comparison of pixels of the image and the camera used to take the image (a kind of signature of the image). Also blobs are compared (8x8 pictures). Many techniques all rely on purely comparing pixels.

15:35:53 [pgroth_]

very interesting

15:36:28 [Irini]

Yolanda: is there a possible connection with the provenance group and groups that Media Annotation Group ?

15:36:47 [Irini]

Raphael: yes, if we could attach provenance around the annotations of the picture

15:37:04 [Irini]

Raphael: has proposed the use of a Named Graph or a vocabulary

15:37:39 [Irini]

Raphael: it is not clear which is the appropriate use case.

15:38:10 [Irini]

Raphael: bring someone from the Media Annotation Group to talk to us about the vocabularies used and the mappings.

15:38:17 [pgroth_]

do they know about our requirements doc?

15:38:31 [Irini]

Raphael proposed the chair of Media Annotation Group.

15:38:45 [pgroth_]

I wonder if it reflects their requirements for provenance

15:39:26 [Irini]

Raphael: need for more communication to understand between the two groups.

15:39:43 [Irini]

(to establish an understanding)

15:40:28 [pgroth_]

yeah not me :-)

15:42:41 [Irini]

Jose Manuel abt Internet Architecture trust and privacy

15:43:09 [Irini]

Jose Manuel: gave a talk abt the provenance and challenges w.r.t. trust and privacy

15:43:24 [YolandaG]

Jose Manuel's email and pointers are at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010May/0009.html

15:44:16 [Irini]

interesting feedback regarding the role of provenance w.r.t. accountability and policies. Systems in the cloud take data from people and propagate data with policies that are not clear.

15:44:29 [Irini]

European Directive abt the use of private data.

15:44:48 [Irini]

Provenance can be used to establish accountability of systems w.r.t. existing policies.

15:44:59 [Irini]

Community is interested in attribution as well.

15:45:30 [Irini]

Interested to record who did what in a specific case and who is responsible for some actions in the Internet

15:46:03 [Irini]

In Future Internet assembly -- discussion on the Future Internet Infrastructure.

15:46:30 [Irini]

Important to monitor the movements of data in order to optimize the protocols for FI infrastructure

15:46:56 [Irini]

Positive Reaction -- Raphael was invited to Incotrust(?) workshop

15:47:17 [pgroth_]

Jose Manuel

15:47:32 [Irini]

(thanks)

15:47:57 [Irini]

important to understand the processes used to manipulate the data

15:49:24 [Irini]

Invited R. Wright and J. Clark for a talk in the provenance inc. group Teleconf. Exists a potential to establish a collaboration with these security-related groups.

15:51:00 [Irini]

Jose Manuel: Incotrust workshop has participants from a number of countries to work on secutity/privacy/trust

15:52:40 [Irini]

Jose Manuel: people talk all the time abt provenance (attribution, accountability) w/out talking abt this specifically

15:53:14 [Irini]

Olaf: Abt Provenance Vocabulary mappings

15:53:14 [olaf]

http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings

15:54:10 [Irini]

If Common terms exist, use the provenance related OPM terms

15:54:24 [Irini]

If Common terms exist between vocabularies, use the provenance related OPM terms

15:54:50 [Irini]

for mappin terms use the skos vocabulary

15:55:05 [Irini]

wanting to enable gap analysis

15:55:54 [Irini]

How to proceed:

15:56:16 [Irini]

how can the mappings be described (as an RDF document?)

15:56:53 [Irini]

Is the exercise done? should we stop the exercise or based on the identified gaps increase the number of common terms?

15:57:47 [raphael]

I think it is a good idea to have an RDF representation of the mappings

15:58:27 [Irini]

Yolanda: what did Olaf learnt from the exercise so far

15:59:00 [Irini]

Olaf: vocabularies he worked with are more specific than OPM has

15:59:05 [michaelp]

q+

15:59:18 [Irini]

Olaf worked with # prv: Provenance Vocabulary and [?]

16:00:00 [Irini]

[?] is# cs: Changeset Vocabulary

16:00:46 [Irini]

what is missing are concepts related to time from Changeset and not represented in the common terms here.

16:02:04 [Irini]

michaelp: OPM different approach in handling provenance from what the domain vocabularies have

16:03:35 [ivan]

q+

16:03:59 [Irini]

Yolanda: exercise is helpful for us and others

16:04:01 [pgroth_]

I had feedback today that it was very helpful

16:04:01 [michaelp]

q-

16:04:34 [Irini]

Yolanda: suggests adding documentation

16:05:01 [Irini]

Yolanda: suggests adding context to the information presented

16:05:37 [ivan]

q-

16:06:08 [ivan]

q+

16:06:09 [Jose]

+q

16:06:29 [ivan]

ack YolandaG

16:06:31 [Irini]

Yolanda: look at the dimensions of provenance and associate the provenance terms with these dimensions

16:07:02 [Irini]

Ivan: RDF descriptions of the mappings is very useful.

16:07:24 [Irini]

Ivan: important to have the bridge from one vocabulary to the other

16:08:24 [Irini]

Olaf: understands the usefulness of the exercise -- may be redefining the meaning of the terms in the original vocabs.

16:08:39 [Irini]

Ivan: may be consult the editors of the original vocabs.

16:09:04 [pgroth_]

we're over time :-)

16:09:06 [Irini]

Olaf: could do this for models and vocabs of editors who participate in our group

16:09:21 [Jose]

q+

16:09:58 [Zakim]

-??P15

16:10:01 [Irini]

Jose: experiment to highlight the black spots in vocabs to defining provenance.

16:10:10 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

16:10:11 [Zakim]

-YolandaG

16:10:11 [Zakim]

-SamCoppens

16:10:12 [Zakim]

-Ivan

16:10:12 [Zakim]

-??P21

16:10:13 [Irini]

Yolanda:

16:10:14 [Zakim]

-raphael

16:10:14 [Zakim]

-smiles

16:10:15 [Zakim]

-michaelp

16:10:17 [Zakim]

-olaf

16:10:19 [Zakim]

-??P10

16:10:21 [Zakim]

-Irini

16:10:23 [Zakim]

-Jose

16:10:25 [Zakim]

-kai

16:10:27 [Zakim]

- +1.518.608.aacc

16:10:29 [Zakim]

INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended

16:10:31 [Zakim]

Attendees were YolandaG, kai, michaelp, +1.619.524.aaaa, smiles, Ivan, olaf, raphael, [IPcaller], Irini, SamCoppens, Jose, +1.518.608.aacc

16:11:51 [Irini]

rrsagent, set log public

16:11:57 [Irini]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:11:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/28-prov-xg-minutes.html Irini

16:12:04 [Irini]

trackbot, end telcon

16:12:04 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

16:12:04 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

16:12:05 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:12:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/28-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot

16:12:06 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

16:12:06 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items