IRC log of dap on 2010-05-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:47:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
13:47:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:47:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:47:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
13:47:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
13:47:07 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
13:47:08 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
13:47:08 [trackbot]
Date: 26 May 2010
13:47:13 [dom]
Present+ Dzung_Tran
13:47:52 [dom]
Regrets: Frederick_Hirsch, John_Morris
13:51:29 [arve]
I have conflicting appointments
13:52:55 [dom]
Regrets+ Arve_Bersvendsen
13:53:23 [marengo]
marengo has joined #dap
13:57:14 [alissa]
alissa has joined #dap
13:59:04 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:59:11 [Zakim]
13:59:14 [enewland]
enewland has joined #dap
13:59:48 [darobin]
Chair: Robin_Berjon
13:59:53 [Zakim]
13:59:53 [darobin]
Present+ Robin_Berjon
13:59:55 [dom]
Present+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
14:00:03 [enewland]
Present+ enewland
14:00:08 [alissa]
Present+ Alissa_Cooper
14:00:14 [Zakim]
14:00:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.314.454.aaaa - is perhaps darobin?
14:00:33 [dom]
s/enewland/Eric Newland/
14:00:34 [darobin]
Zakim, aaaa is me
14:00:34 [Zakim]
sorry, darobin, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
14:00:41 [dom]
Zakim, jmorris is really enewland
14:00:41 [Zakim]
+enewland; got it
14:00:48 [darobin]
Zakim, darobin is me
14:00:48 [Zakim]
+darobin; got it
14:00:52 [dom]
zakim, list attendees
14:00:52 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been alissa, Dom, +1.314.454.aaaa, enewland, darobin
14:00:53 [darobin]
stupid bot
14:01:03 [LauraA]
LauraA has joined #dap
14:01:08 [Claes]
Claes has joined #dap
14:01:11 [arve]
arve has joined #dap
14:01:11 [dom]
14:01:28 [LauraA]
Present+ LauraA
14:01:38 [darobin]
okay let's wait a little
14:01:50 [danielcoloma]
danielcoloma has joined #dap
14:02:08 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:02:35 [Zakim]
14:02:41 [Zakim]
+ +39.011.228.aabb
14:02:50 [marengo]
Zakim, aabb is me
14:02:50 [Zakim]
+marengo; got it
14:03:00 [Zakim]
14:03:05 [marengo]
Present+ Marco_Marengo
14:03:06 [Zakim]
+ +03468697aacc
14:03:08 [danielcoloma]
Present +Daniel_Coloma
14:03:10 [Claes]
Present+ Claes_Nilsson
14:03:12 [richt]
Present+ Richard_Tibbett
14:03:16 [danielcoloma]
Zakim, aacc is me
14:03:16 [Zakim]
+danielcoloma; got it
14:03:27 [Zakim]
14:03:29 [AnssiK]
AnssiK has joined #dap
14:03:30 [dom]
zakim, who's the phone?
14:03:30 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, dom.
14:03:35 [dom]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see enewland, alissa, Dom, darobin, Claes, marengo, richt, danielcoloma, LauraA
14:03:38 [darobin]
danielcoloma, can you scribe? you're at the top of the list
14:03:48 [danielcoloma]
14:03:51 [darobin]
Regrets+ Frederick
14:03:52 [darobin]
14:03:57 [darobin]
Scribe: Daniel
14:03:58 [Zakim]
14:04:01 [maxf1]
maxf1 has joined #dap
14:04:02 [darobin]
ScribeNick: danielcoloma
14:04:18 [AnssiK]
zakim, P16 is me
14:04:20 [Zakim]
sorry, AnssiK, I do not recognize a party named 'P16'
14:04:46 [AnssiK]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:04:56 [marengo]
Zakim, mute me
14:04:56 [Zakim]
marengo should now be muted
14:05:15 [dom]
14:05:21 [dom]
ack me
14:05:27 [Zakim]
+ +04871719aadd
14:05:29 [danielcoloma]
topic announcements
14:05:33 [wojciech]
wojciech has joined #dap
14:05:41 [darobin]
14:05:42 [dom]
-> Registration for DAP F2F in London, July 2010
14:05:45 [Zakim]
14:05:46 [danielcoloma]
dom: registration for London meeting is open
14:06:00 [dom]
-> Current registrants for F2F
14:06:12 [darobin]
14:06:42 [danielcoloma]
darobin: privacy workshop is scheduled for the same week as DAP F2F
14:07:16 [danielcoloma]
Topic: Minutes Approval
14:07:18 [darobin]
14:07:31 [darobin]
RESOLUTION: minutes approved
14:07:36 [dom]
s/.html/.html Minutes of 19 May 2010 call/
14:07:41 [danielcoloma]
Topic: Policy Segment
14:07:49 [dom]
s/<darobin> RESOLUTION:/<danielcoloma> RESOLUTION:/
14:08:10 [dom]
14:08:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-152 -- Laura Arribas to edit policy framework, reviewing BONDI material and editorial update -- due 2010-05-05 -- OPEN
14:08:11 [trackbot]
14:08:31 [dom]
-> Laura's report on progress on policy framework wrt trust domains
14:08:36 [danielcoloma]
LauraA: Changes submitted to CVS this morning
14:08:49 [danielcoloma]
LauraA: e-mail summarizes key changes done in the commit
14:08:52 [darobin]
-> the Policy document
14:09:33 [danielcoloma]
LauraA: Trust domain control layer added, new dataflow
14:09:46 [dom]
-> Dataflow diagram
14:09:59 [danielcoloma]
LauraA: One of the objectives was making it simpler, not sure if it is achieved yet
14:10:39 [danielcoloma]
... need help to split the document in different specs
14:11:41 [dom]
zakim, aadd is probably Wojciech
14:11:41 [Zakim]
+Wojciech?; got it
14:11:49 [dom]
Present+ Wojciech_Maslowski
14:11:52 [danielcoloma]
darobin: volunteers for contributing more to the work?
14:11:55 [wojciech]
Present+ Wojciech_Masłowski
14:12:03 [wojciech]
yes it's me
14:12:19 [danielcoloma]
darobin: which kind of problems do you have when splitting the doc?
14:12:58 [danielcoloma]
lauraA: agreed to have 3 docs (policy framework, profile and example documents) but not sure how to do the split
14:13:40 [danielcoloma]
darobin: create 3 copies of the doc, add them to the CVS and remove the part that is not needed for every of them
14:13:54 [darobin]
14:15:14 [danielcoloma]
darobin: Do you think the documents resulting of the split are small/indepent enough to be implemented in a granular manner?
14:15:29 [danielcoloma]
LauraA: Yes, I think so
14:15:54 [AnssiK]
editorial comment re policy framework doc: do not scale images, instead display them in their native size for better readability (see e.g. section 2.3)
14:16:19 [danielcoloma]
darobin: status from a publication point view?
14:16:41 [danielcoloma]
LauraA: The policy framework is the more mature one
14:18:18 [danielcoloma]
darobin: could we have a FPWD Cfc next week?
14:18:32 [danielcoloma]
LauraA: Yes, it is doable
14:18:58 [danielcoloma]
Topic: APIs
14:19:34 [danielcoloma]
darobin: discussion on the sysinfo attributes on the mailing list
14:19:47 [danielcoloma]
... target is reach an agreement today
14:20:28 [danielcoloma]
darobin: MAC address and SSID, suggestion is remove both
14:20:34 [dom]
-> Analysis of SysInfo Attributes
14:20:35 [dom]
14:20:36 [Dzung_Tran]
14:20:40 [maxf1]
14:20:51 [dom]
14:20:55 [dom]
ack me
14:21:07 [tlr]
zakim, call thomas-781
14:21:07 [Zakim]
ok, tlr; the call is being made
14:21:08 [Zakim]
14:21:46 [danielcoloma]
dom: widget and open web are different use cases
14:24:15 [alissa]
14:24:16 [danielcoloma]
darobin: we should think about the use case for exposing these attributes
14:24:22 [tlr]
I like Robin's proposal.
14:24:28 [darobin]
ack alissa
14:25:06 [dom]
(this could be something defined in the policy framework, that said)
14:25:26 [danielcoloma]
... accessing some properties may returned a denied permission error depending on whether an installed applciation or a web page is accessing them
14:25:46 [danielcoloma]
14:25:56 [Dzung_Tran]
At one point we talk about a different use cases document, Is there one?
14:26:21 [tlr]
zakim, unmute me
14:26:21 [Zakim]
sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:26:24 [tlr]
ack thomas
14:26:42 [danielcoloma]
... the other alternative is having an extended spec for these additional properties
14:27:06 [danielcoloma]
tlr: supports the idea of having these properties in another spec
14:27:27 [alissa]
+1 to having scary properties separate
14:28:13 [danielcoloma]
dom: who is doing that analysis?
14:30:08 [Dzung_Tran]
that analysis would be difficult, I would just remove obvious scary properties for release 1.0, revisit in release 2.0
14:30:51 [dom]
(an editors note in the doc maybe?)
14:32:12 [danielcoloma]
dom: We could include a note saying that these properties are not part of the spec because of privacy issues
14:32:22 [darobin]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: macAddress and SSID removed; Make a note that these have been removed but that the group is considering making them available in a more advanced document
14:32:32 [darobin]
+ because of privacy concerns
14:33:05 [darobin]
+ seeking comments, planning to revisit in future version => in SotDF
14:33:41 [darobin]
RESOLUTION: macAddress and SSID removed; Make a note in SotD that these have been removed but that the group is seeking comments and considering making them available in a future version
14:33:59 [darobin]
ACTION: maxf to implement the maxAddress/SSID resolution
14:34:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-175 - Implement the maxAddress/SSID resolution [on Max Froumentin - due 2010-06-02].
14:34:31 [danielcoloma]
darobin: suggestion to remove IP address
14:36:03 [tlr]
14:36:05 [darobin]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: remove ipAddress as well, put in same list as macAddress and SSID
14:36:20 [darobin]
RESOLUTION: remove ipAddress as well, put in same list as macAddress and SSID
14:36:48 [danielcoloma]
darobin: APN, operatorName, roaming, mcc and mnc have been also suggested for being removed
14:37:11 [danielcoloma]
... suggest to separate roaming from the other four, as there are strong use cases for it at least
14:37:24 [tlr]
The "data connection is expensive" flag, right.
14:37:32 [maxf1]
14:37:33 [tlr]
14:38:08 [Zakim]
14:38:32 [Suresh]
Suresh has joined #dap
14:38:33 [danielcoloma]
alissa: some of these attributes may be redundant
14:38:42 [Suresh]
Present+ Suresh_Chitturi
14:39:01 [darobin]
ack maxf1
14:39:05 [darobin]
ack maxf
14:39:39 [danielcoloma]
maxf: Bryan was the main supporter for including these attributes, we may need to check with him
14:40:18 [danielcoloma]
darobin: suggestion is removing them unless we have strong use cases for them
14:40:22 [darobin]
ack tho
14:40:25 [darobin]
ack tlr
14:41:05 [danielcoloma]
tlr: it would be good to validate the decission on the mailing list
14:41:29 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to email Bryan to ask what his use cases are for apn, operatorName, mcc, mnc
14:41:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-176 - Email Bryan to ask what his use cases are for apn, operatorName, mcc, mnc [on Robin Berjon - due 2010-06-02].
14:41:33 [danielcoloma]
tlr: roaming is a way to abstract to the user he may be charged for data connections more expensively
14:42:19 [danielcoloma]
darobin: the use case is the "expensive flag", but not sure how to specify it in a way that it is useful
14:42:32 [danielcoloma]
s/that it/that/
14:43:38 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to ask the mailing about usage of roaming
14:43:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-177 - Ask the mailing about usage of roaming [on Robin Berjon - due 2010-06-02].
14:44:06 [alissa]
14:44:15 [darobin]
ack alissa
14:47:17 [danielcoloma]
darobin: suggestion is keeping the rest of elements (included in item 4) in the spec
14:47:22 [darobin]
RESOLUTION: keep the fields: type, currentDownloadBandwidth, currentUploadBandwidth, maxDownloadBandwidth, maxUploadBandwidth, currentSignalStrength
14:47:36 [Suresh]
14:47:49 [darobin]
ack Suresh
14:48:56 [danielcoloma]
Suresh: From a conformance point of view, could we group some of these properties
14:49:13 [danielcoloma]
... it should be possible to query if one property group is supported or not
14:49:52 [dom]
q+ to note link with policy framework
14:50:00 [danielcoloma]
darobin: this approach has not worked in DOM, SVG
14:50:50 [darobin]
ack dom
14:50:50 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to note link with policy framework
14:52:13 [danielcoloma]
Suresh: Key question is the sysinfo spec a all or none spec?
14:52:56 [danielcoloma]
darobin: conformance is all or none, but for instance, if sensor does not return a value it would be acceptable
14:54:38 [dom]
[I think making a concrete proposal would help in any case :) ]
14:54:58 [danielcoloma]
darobin: if we want it to be modular, we should split the spec
14:55:15 [danielcoloma]
... handling it at the conformance level is very difficult
14:55:51 [maxf1]
14:55:52 [darobin]
14:55:59 [darobin]
ack maxf
14:56:49 [danielcoloma]
maxf: is there any conclusion on the issue of having multiple active connections?
14:56:58 [danielcoloma]
darobin: no resolution so far
14:57:18 [alissa]
14:58:09 [darobin]
ack alissa
14:58:54 [Suresh]
14:59:10 [darobin]
ack Suresh
14:59:16 [danielcoloma]
alissa: privacy discussions should be hold when we have reached a conclusion on the multiple connections issue
14:59:29 [danielcoloma]
14:59:54 [darobin]
-> Suresh's comments
15:03:07 [maxf1]
what's an "MMS connection"?
15:03:13 [danielcoloma]
Suresh: we need also to clarify the meaning of connections in this context
15:03:30 [darobin]
[I wonder if we don't have to expose multiple just to make sure we can be interoperable...]
15:05:01 [danielcoloma]
darobin: what are the downsides of having an array of multiple connections?
15:05:31 [danielcoloma]
... complexity, interoperability problems, any other?
15:07:29 [darobin]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: we only expose active connections and we expose all of them through activeConnections
15:07:41 [darobin]
RESOLUTION: we only expose active connections and we expose all of them through activeConnections
15:08:10 [maxf1]
ACTION maxf to make activeConnection multiple
15:08:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-178 - Make activeConnection multiple [on Max Froumentin - due 2010-06-02].
15:08:18 [danielcoloma]
Topic: General API Review
15:09:53 [danielcoloma]
darobin: in general, the progress of the APIs has been slowed down
15:10:03 [danielcoloma]
... which are the reasons for that?
15:10:35 [dom]
(tracker is supposed to be used for that; not that I mind using the wiki for it)
15:10:41 [danielcoloma]
richt: pending resolutions on some issues may be a reason
15:12:03 [Dzung_Tran]
I think the main reason got to do with privacy
15:12:08 [danielcoloma]
tlr: we already have the tracker
15:12:46 [danielcoloma]
darobin: kind of wiki in which we list the key issues for every API may help
15:13:10 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to get the ball rolling on documenting path forward for specs
15:13:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-179 - Get the ball rolling on documenting path forward for specs [on Robin Berjon - due 2010-06-02].
15:13:43 [maxf1]
q+ to introduce wojciech
15:13:52 [maxf1]
15:14:05 [danielcoloma]
tlr: concerns on the community about the capture API
15:14:22 [danielcoloma]
darobin: still waiting for input from mozilla
15:14:23 [wojciech]
15:15:18 [danielcoloma]
tlr: some concerns may be due to confusion
15:15:42 [danielcoloma]
... suggestion is putting on the list a clarification on the scope of the capture API
15:16:19 [Zakim]
15:16:34 [richt]
sorry I dropped from the call.
15:16:35 [richt]
I will document progress on the wiki for Contacts and Calendar
15:16:39 [darobin]
ACTION: Robin to ping the editors about explaining the design of Capture on the list
15:16:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-180 - Ping the editors about explaining the design of Capture on the list [on Robin Berjon - due 2010-06-02].
15:17:00 [darobin]
ack maxf1
15:17:41 [danielcoloma]
maxf: last call in this WG, passing the editorshp on sysinfo the Dzung_Tran
15:17:55 [dom]
ack wojciech
15:18:01 [danielcoloma]
... new Opera employee on this group, wojciech
15:18:03 [dom]
q- maxf
15:18:31 [Dzung_Tran]
Max, wish you well
15:18:37 [maxf1]
thanks :)
15:18:52 [dom]
welcome wojciech!
15:19:18 [Zakim]
15:19:19 [Zakim]
15:19:21 [Zakim]
15:19:22 [Zakim]
15:19:22 [Zakim]
15:19:23 [Zakim]
15:19:24 [Zakim]
15:19:25 [Zakim]
15:19:27 [Zakim]
15:19:31 [Zakim]
15:19:32 [darobin]
RRSAgent: make minutes
15:19:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate darobin
15:19:32 [Zakim]
15:19:35 [Zakim]
15:19:39 [Zakim]
15:19:41 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:19:42 [Zakim]
Attendees were alissa, Dom, +1.314.454.aaaa, enewland, darobin, Claes, +39.011.228.aabb, marengo, richt, +03468697aacc, danielcoloma, LauraA, Anssik, +04871719aadd, maxf,
15:19:45 [Zakim]
... Wojciech?, Thomas, Suresh
15:24:14 [darobin]
yup yup
15:26:16 [darobin]
no worries, kinda part of the job :)
15:26:42 [darobin]
except I'm not quite as, erm, dedicated when it comes to removing all the crud around the generated minutes as Frederick is :)