IRC log of CSS on 2010-05-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:36:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/26-CSS-irc
15:36:43 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:36:43 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
15:36:48 [glazou]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:46:20 [sylvaing]
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15:56:43 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:50 [Zakim]
+plinss
15:57:33 [Zakim]
+glazou
15:58:14 [oyvind]
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15:59:15 [Zakim]
+ +49.238.aaaa
15:59:27 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is CesarAcebal
15:59:28 [Zakim]
+CesarAcebal; got it
15:59:50 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:00:10 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:14 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins
16:00:18 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:00:18 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
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+sylvaing
16:02:16 [Zakim]
+smfr
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16:03:46 [Zakim]
+??P21
16:04:49 [fantasai]
Zakim, ? is me
16:04:49 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:05:01 [bradk]
why does my phone have to be difficult?
16:05:10 [glazou]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:05:10 [Zakim]
+bradk
16:05:22 [Zakim]
glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: CesarAcebal (24%), TabAtkins (14%), bradk (4%)
16:05:57 [TabAtkins]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:05:59 [alexmog]
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16:06:12 [TabAtkins]
glazou: first item is about adding murakami-san as new editor for css3 lists.
16:06:13 [fantasai]
+!
16:06:16 [TabAtkins]
glazou: any objection?
16:06:50 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Murakami-san added as 3rd editor of css3 lists
16:07:05 [murakami]
thanks
16:07:09 [TabAtkins]
glazou: First lets review the issues for everyone.
16:07:30 [TabAtkins]
glazou: dbaron is not on the call yet.
16:07:34 [TabAtkins]
glazou: elika?
16:07:42 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I haven't done any work on issues yet.
16:07:45 [TabAtkins]
glazou: When will you?
16:07:53 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Early june, as I reported last week.
16:07:58 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Sylvain?
16:08:23 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Anton got back to me; we're basically done, but he's asking me to reconsider something. I need to read through the whole thread which is very time-consuming.
16:08:35 [TabAtkins]
glazou: You're confident you can have a proposal for the issue by next week?
16:08:37 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Yes.
16:08:49 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Bert?
16:09:03 [TabAtkins]
Bert: I did 119 just now.
16:09:08 [Zakim]
+ +47.23.69.aabb
16:09:19 [TabAtkins]
Bert: 120 and 122 are being added. I don't think they need further discussion, though.
16:09:26 [glazou]
Zakim, aabb is howcome
16:09:27 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
16:09:36 [TabAtkins]
glazou: arron?
16:09:52 [TabAtkins]
arronei: Created test cases, but had some problems with uploading them last night; access was blocked for some reason.
16:10:05 [Bert]
s/they need/any of the others need/
16:10:24 [Bert]
s/122/121/
16:11:05 [TabAtkins]
glazou: tab?
16:11:26 [bradk]
that typing is really loud. Not that I'm complaining about a person other than me scribing.
16:11:29 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-138
16:11:34 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I'm still discussing issue 161 with boris, but I think I'm finally to a point where he's happy with the wording (even if not with the proposal itself). I should have it wrapped up this week.
16:14:06 [TabAtkins]
glazou: issue 138
16:14:36 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I think that what fantasai explained as what it's "trying to say" is correct, but as boris says, we need to clarify it.
16:14:44 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: What about abspos?
16:15:17 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Abspos elements act like blocks anyway, so that case should be less ambiguous.
16:15:21 [fantasai]
So we want something like appending "If any floats are contained by the anonymous box, then those floats are shifted, too."
16:15:24 [fantasai]
?
16:15:25 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Who volunteers to write a proposal?
16:15:33 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I'll try it out.
16:15:50 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-139
16:15:51 [TabAtkins]
ACTION Tab: Write proposal for issue 138
16:15:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-232 - Write proposal for issue 138 [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-02].
16:16:00 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Next, issue 139, a grammar issue.
16:16:52 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Did we agree that that's a valid report? If so, then it's clearly an error - the escape character should never appear unescaped.
16:17:04 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Any objections?
16:17:13 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Accept Yves's proposal for issue 139.
16:17:18 [TabAtkins]
Bert: I'll make the edit.
16:17:25 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-146
16:18:06 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Issue 146.
16:18:14 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Seems pretty simple. The marker box shouldn't be optional.
16:19:08 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Are we going to accept elika's wording?
16:19:20 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: What do you mean?
16:19:43 [TabAtkins]
glazou: It can be more explicit. It should say "no marker when list-style-type:none", etc.
16:19:53 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: That's specified in the list section; this is the box generation section.
16:20:10 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Accept fantasai's proposal for issue 146.
16:20:35 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-118
16:20:40 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Now to the issues with no owner at all. First is 118.
16:22:46 [TabAtkins]
Bert: It's imprecise. The glyphs aren't centered, the "em box" is.
16:23:25 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Yeah, not sure if we want to use the *term* "em box", but that's definitely the idea we're shooting for.
16:24:18 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: What other term would we use?
16:25:14 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: What about inline-blocks?
16:25:15 [howcome]
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16:25:28 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:25:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, glazou, CesarAcebal, Bert, arronei, TabAtkins, sylvaing, smfr, fantasai, bradk, howcome
16:25:29 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: This section is about text; you need the assumption of a font for this to make sense.
16:25:37 [TabAtkins]
bradk: Some glyphs are taller than others.
16:25:48 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Yeah, but their em boxes are the same if their font-size is.
16:25:55 [TabAtkins]
bradk: Do we define "em box" anywhere?
16:26:20 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: No. It's a standard definition in fonts, but we should probably add a token definition of it.
16:26:39 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So we more or less agree; who's going to write the proposal?
16:26:41 [sylvaing]
thought the leading was line-height-font-size and went on top/bottom of the content area where the glyphs go
16:27:17 [TabAtkins]
Bert: I guess we need some text that says we assume each glyph is defined relative to an "em box".
16:27:31 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: And we assume that the font-size is mapped to the em box.
16:27:48 [fantasai]
or rather, the em box is mapped to the font size
16:28:07 [TabAtkins]
ACTION Bert: Write proposal for issue 118.
16:28:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-233 - Write proposal for issue 118. [on Bert Bos - due 2010-06-02].
16:28:15 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-122
16:28:25 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Next is issue 122, related to fonts.
16:28:42 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Reporter complains that the spec is redefining what "serif" and "sans serif" means.
16:28:48 [TabAtkins]
glazou: And we have a proposal from dbaron to solve that.
16:29:33 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Agreed with dbaron's proposal - fonts already know if they're serif or whatever, and we can just have a weak description of what the terms mean.
16:29:52 [howcome]
http://somuchpun.com/?s=serif
16:30:03 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Accept dbaron's proposal to resolve issue 122.
16:30:51 [TabAtkins]
ACTION Tab: Propose text for resolving issue 122.
16:30:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-234 - Propose text for resolving issue 122. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-02].
16:30:53 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-140
16:32:46 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I think david's proposal makes sense - it's probably the only way to solve this problem.
16:33:48 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I don't have a deep enough understanding of the core grammar to know how good of a solution dbaron's proposal is, or what a better one is.
16:34:09 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Another option, certainly, is to change the example that spawned the issue, and remove the braces from between the parens?
16:34:43 [TabAtkins]
glazou: People could still write that sort of thing, correct?
16:35:02 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Right, people can write things that can't be tokenized, and we just don't know what to do with them.
16:35:21 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I don't think that's a good enough solution.
16:35:37 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Do we want to define the meaning of every possible bytestream? I don't think that's needed.
16:35:44 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I think it would be useful. ^_^
16:35:53 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I recommend waiting for dbaron to attend a call and get his input.
16:36:13 [TabAtkins]
Bert: It's probably okay to allow braces inside parens, but I'm still a little bit afraid.
16:36:20 [TabAtkins]
glazou: We'll revisit next week, and move on for now.
16:36:22 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-142
16:37:43 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: We do need a definition of what the "ancestor box" is, because Boris and I disagreed on that while discussing my abspos-in-tables issue.
16:38:05 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So what's suggested to rewrite?
16:38:16 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Make it clear what the ancestor box is in all contexts.
16:39:09 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Boris says 3 instances, and I'd *like* to depend on the definition of "ancestor box" in my table issue too.
16:39:18 [TabAtkins]
Bert: If it's only in chapter 10, i can do it.
16:39:20 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-144
16:40:20 [smfr]
yep
16:40:34 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I don't think we need to worry about 144 - it's pointed out that the reporter's results were from looking at it in quirks mode; the spec defines it precisely and all browsers agree in standards mode.
16:40:41 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-145
16:40:45 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So no action on this. Any objections?
16:40:57 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: No action on 144 - not a problem.
16:41:37 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: The i18nWG has been going back and forth on issue 145 for a while.
16:42:15 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We probably need to defer this for them.
16:42:36 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-147
16:42:41 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: i18n is having a meeting for bidi in html second week of june that elika and i are attending. We can make sure it's discussed then.
16:43:49 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: It makes sense to recommend scaling for images, but not necessarily for java applets, etc.
16:44:09 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Sometimes you just want to rescale the box and just tell the replaced element to redraw itself in the new space.
16:44:15 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Frex, java applet or iframe.
16:44:48 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: So I don't think it makes sense to specify how a replaced element draws in normative terms here.
16:45:06 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Agreed.
16:45:18 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: No change for issue 147
16:45:26 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-153
16:46:53 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I think the test case just needs to be updated, no spec change, right?
16:46:59 [TabAtkins]
glazou: elika says the spec is vague.
16:47:20 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Ah, yes, I see that now.
16:48:13 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Any objections to elika's proposal?
16:48:21 [TabAtkins]
arronei: That means the test case needs to be updated too.
16:48:30 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Elika already provided an updated test case.
16:48:44 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Accept Elika's proposal to resolve issue 153.
16:49:08 [TabAtkins]
Action Elika: Write text for 153.
16:49:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-235 - Write text for 153. [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-06-02].
16:49:36 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Dec/0322.html
16:49:46 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Wrt the previous issue, 147, there's an email not tracked in the issue list pointing out a sentence that doesn't make any sense at all.
16:50:25 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think it should be removed, and Tantek agrees.
16:50:48 [TabAtkins]
Bert: I don't see what's wrong with it.
16:50:59 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: If you specify a height, the width of the replaced element's box may not be intrinsic.
16:51:05 [TabAtkins]
Bert: Oh, in that sense.
16:51:34 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: It's weird, and it doesn't add anything since everything is otherwise specified. So I think we should just remove it.
16:51:57 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Remove the offending sentence in visudet.
16:52:12 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-157
16:53:28 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I don't think it's circular. I think it can look like it to a surface reading, but it's just a statement of constraints.
16:53:39 [TabAtkins]
glazou: dbaron and bert have long messages explaining why it's not circular.
16:53:46 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Bert has a nice examle that I think would clarify things.
16:53:53 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Can you add the example to the spec?
16:54:16 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Add Bert's example about clearance, otherwise no change for issue 157.
16:54:31 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-158
16:54:33 [TabAtkins]
ACTION Bert: Add example about clearance for issue 157.
16:54:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-236 - Add example about clearance for issue 157. [on Bert Bos - due 2010-06-02].
16:57:10 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: This isn't even a change, just a clarification.
16:57:21 [TabAtkins]
ACTION Tab: Suggest text to resolve issue 158.
16:57:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-237 - Suggest text to resolve issue 158. [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-06-02].
16:57:22 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-159
16:58:37 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: dbaron already has some rough text to resolve the issue.
16:58:49 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I can take this; I'll probably be doing other margin-related things anyway.
16:58:53 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-114
16:59:01 [TabAtkins]
ACTION Elika: Propose text to resolve 114.
16:59:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-238 - Propose text to resolve 114. [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-06-02].
16:59:16 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Anyone know what SVG is doing about 114?
16:59:22 [TabAtkins]
arronei: Chris sent me a message about it yesterday.
16:59:29 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So they're working on it, excellent.
17:00:35 [Zakim]
-arronei
17:00:37 [Zakim]
-smfr
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-fantasai
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smfr has left #css
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-howcome
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-CesarAcebal
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-bradk
17:00:57 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:01:00 [glazou]
Zakim, who is on the phone
17:01:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', glazou
17:01:15 [TabAtkins]
Zakim, who's here?
17:01:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, glazou, TabAtkins, sylvaing
17:01:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see howcome, alexmog, murakami, oyvind, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, Curt`, DanC, CesarAcebal, plinss_, arronei, anne, krijnh, Hixie, karl, lhnz, jdaggett_afk,
17:01:19 [Zakim]
... lgombos, TabAtkins, jgraham, fantasai, plinss, Bert, trackbot
17:01:45 [plinss_]
zakim, drop sylvaing
17:01:45 [Zakim]
sylvaing is being disconnected
17:01:46 [Zakim]
-sylvaing
17:05:38 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins
17:05:44 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:05:45 [Zakim]
-plinss
17:05:46 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, glazou, +49.238.aaaa, CesarAcebal, Bert, TabAtkins, arronei, sylvaing, smfr, fantasai, bradk, +47.23.69.aabb, howcome
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