14:56:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
14:56:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/21-prov-xg-irc
14:56:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:56:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 98765
14:56:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
14:56:44 <trackbot> Date: 21 May 2010
14:57:00 <jcheney> Zakim, this will be inc_provxg
14:57:00 <Zakim> ok, jcheney, I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM already started
14:57:30 <olaf> olaf has joined #prov-xg
14:57:32 <jcheney> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-prov/2010May/0011.html
14:57:45 <Zakim> +??P4
14:57:53 <jcheney> chair: Yolanda Gil
14:57:57 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:57:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Yolanda, ??P4
14:57:59 <SamCoppens> zakim, ??p4 is SamCoppens
14:57:59 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
14:58:02 <jcheney> Scribe: James Cheney
14:58:08 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov-xg
14:58:09 <jcheney> ScribeNick: jcheney
14:58:17 <jcheney> rrsagent, make logs public
14:58:19 <Zakim> +??P5
14:58:28 <smiles> zakim, ??P5 is smiles
14:58:28 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
14:59:03 <Zakim> +??P0
14:59:09 <Zakim> + +1.619.223.aaaa
14:59:11 <jcheney> zakim, ??P0 is me
14:59:11 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
14:59:16 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:59:16 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:59:18 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:59:22 <Zakim> + +1.617.768.aabb
14:59:45 <Zakim> +Irini
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15:00:05 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:00:05 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
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15:00:49 <Zakim> +olaf
15:01:17 <Zakim> +michaelp
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15:01:43 <Zakim> + +86528aacc
15:01:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:01:48 <jcheney> Yolanda: not on IRC
15:02:00 <jcheney> Topic: Provenance in social web
15:02:43 <jcheney> Yolanda: New members?
15:03:04 <JimM> JimM has joined #prov-xg
15:03:11 <Zakim> +??P14
15:03:29 <pgroth> loving swan
15:03:45 <ssahoo2> ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
15:03:58 <jcheney> (didn't catch your name...)
15:04:31 <jcheney> SWAN ontology one of ontologies we are trying to integrate
15:04:42 <JimM_> JimM_ has joined #prov-xg
15:05:19 <smiles> jcheney, his name is Paolo Ciccarese I believe
15:05:26 <jcheney> Thanks
15:05:46 <jcheney> While we wait for harry, discuss other agenda items
15:05:53 <pgroth> harry is dialing in now
15:06:00 <Paolo> jcheney, sorry about that. Paolo Ciccarese is my name indeed
15:06:20 <jcheney> Discussion of scenarios including news aggregator - adding technical requirements leading to state of art/technology & indentfy gap
15:06:39 <Zakim> + +1.937.775.aadd
15:07:39 <jcheney> Paul: followup - architecture diagrams, association between tech and user requirements
15:08:07 <jcheney> Do we want to do this for all three scenarios? Or just web scenario? 
15:08:14 <Zakim> + +0238059aaee
15:08:18 <jcheney> Yolanda: finish first, next in June
15:08:29 <Luc> Luc has joined #prov-xg
15:08:32 <jcheney> Paul: Need one more diagram (Yogesh), then tech reqs
15:08:47 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #prov-xg
15:09:38 <jcheney> Yolanda: Any other interest in state-of-art report?
15:09:42 <jcheney> Luc: yes
15:10:25 <jcheney> Olaf: will have a look
15:10:31 <Zakim> +harry
15:11:19 <jcheney> Paul: will sort out next steps with Yogesh and others
15:12:41 <Zakim> + +1.518.763.aaff
15:12:47 <jcheney> Yolanda: Harry will give an overview of story so far with Prov & Social Web XG interaction, scenarios
15:13:17 <jcheney> Harry: Social Web XG looking at standardization for distributed open social networks
15:13:35 <jcheney> Harry: Broad scope, trying to zero in on candidates for standards
15:14:06 <hhalpin> http://www.foaf-project.org/
15:14:18 <jcheney> RDF, FOAF emerging.  Some adoption but most use cases not possible with RDF 1.0
15:14:25 <jcheney> Need versioning, access control, provenance
15:14:40 <jcheney> and most use cases involve these
15:15:22 <jcheney> Determining genuineness as data moves between social nets: need a solution, no good one now
15:15:53 <hhalpin> http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com/
15:16:10 <hhalpin> openid, certicate, foaf+ssl
15:16:18 <jcheney> Most activity so far: what is a good internet ID?  (>50% of social web XG so far) 
15:16:38 <hhalpin> URIs, Web ID
15:16:59 <hhalpin> policy-driven
15:17:17 <jcheney> Provenance needs identity (personal, authority, certificates); also foundational for policy driven use cases, esp. privacy
15:17:17 <hhalpin> the privacy jungle
15:17:25 <hhalpin> trust
15:17:45 <hhalpin> provenance
15:17:51 <jcheney> Objective, data-driven measures of trust?
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15:18:26 <jcheney> Harry: Questions?
15:18:42 <Zakim> +Lalana
15:19:07 <JimM_> provenance == source of ~FOAF network info -- info about the authority stating it?
15:19:10 <jcheney> Luc: You think prov should be based on identity in soc. nets.  What does this mean?
15:19:32 <pgroth> it means (i think ) that provenance "grounds out" in identity
15:19:42 <jcheney> Harry: Identity needed to determine "Who" in open systems.  (lack of central authentication?) 
15:20:02 <jcheney> What is a reliable open-ended system for identifying people over internet?
15:20:38 <jcheney> Use cases: demonstrate provenance, but problematizes identity
15:20:57 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories
15:20:57 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Social_Web 
15:21:25 <jcheney> People in social web have multiple identities
15:21:42 <Paolo> Related project for identifying people http://esw.w3.org/Foaf%2Bssl 
15:21:53 <jcheney> Ability to "take down" your data (facebook death)
15:22:16 <jcheney> whereas most provenance is "append only".  Need to support deletion of provenance?
15:22:53 <jcheney> In social network, need to track down copies and delete them too (difficult...)
15:22:58 <pgroth> we added that
15:22:59 <pgroth> :-)
15:23:04 <Zakim> +??P29
15:23:37 <jcheney> Paul: We did add a deletion" aspect to use case
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15:24:11 <jcheney> Harry: Not much academic work on this 
15:24:45 <jcheney> Iranian election - false information, which messages are real
15:25:10 <jcheney> (on the other hand, maybe the Iranian twitterers didn't want to be easily identifiable!)
15:26:06 <jcheney> need "anonymous IDs" - know this is the same person but not who it really is?  persistence of trust relationships
15:26:57 <jcheney> government-level spamming of social network sites
15:27:39 <jcheney> Vocabulary for "person made claim on date" - still need to build "time" and "versioning" into RDF to support this
15:28:19 <hhalpin> http://activitystrea.ms/
15:28:36 <jcheney> Example: Activity Streams (FriendFeed) allow sharing of updates among sites.  
15:28:40 <hhalpin> atom-based protocol
15:29:11 <jcheney> Define a simple atom-based protocol for profile updates (non-RDF, finite vocab)
15:29:19 <hhalpin> change-control
15:29:30 <jcheney> Lack of provenance framework to deal with change control
15:29:31 <hhalpin> who-why-what
15:29:40 <hhalpin> atom
15:30:25 <jcheney> Problem with Atom: Have to subscribe and poll feed to see if anything changed
15:30:31 <hhalpin> real-time updates
15:30:44 <hhalpin> HTTP GET
15:30:54 <hhalpin> 5000 http atom feed
15:30:58 <jcheney> Need push model instead of "pull" / polling model
15:31:00 <hhalpin> load
15:31:22 <hhalpin> pubsubhub
15:31:24 <jcheney> Server overload problem due to centralization
15:31:32 <hhalpin> push 
15:32:04 <hhalpin> vodafone onesocialweb
15:32:22 <jcheney> social web XG members developing products (Vodafone, Google Buzz) using pubsubhub, atom, activitystreams
15:33:21 <jcheney> atom describes updates, but not fine-grained deletion, identity; not as rich as opm
15:33:44 <JimM_> q+
15:34:04 <hhalpin> ack JimM
15:34:45 <jcheney> Jim: Is RDF the problem or is the problem the lack of an RDF syndication/update formalism?
15:34:57 <jcheney> Harry: Lacks notification, change control
15:35:32 <hhalpin> rdf lacks change control, real-time notification, and a rich model of identity.
15:35:32 <jcheney> Jim: Seems like a non-technical issue
15:35:41 <pgroth> +q
15:36:21 <jcheney> Harry: The difference is that there are de facto standards for updates (Atom) and pub/sub (PubSubHub).
15:36:25 <hhalpin> ack pgroth
15:37:09 <jcheney> Jim: Prov community could encourage standardization, recognition of importance of pub/sub issues
15:37:50 <jcheney> Harry: Scalability to 100,000s of users (why facebook bought friendfeed)
15:38:20 <JimM_> q-
15:38:30 <jcheney> Jim: OPM accounts may handle some of these issues
15:39:36 <Luc> a few years ago, (using the pasoa model), we had defined a provenance-aware rss, which required headers to be communicated, as part of messages.
15:39:51 <jcheney> Paul: Jim, is it enough develop a vocabulary, or are there protocol/architecture issues (with RDF pub/sub)?
15:39:59 <Luc> so, it's both vocabulary and protocol!
15:40:29 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
15:40:37 <jcheney> Jim: Third option: prov vocabularies plus other vocabularies
15:40:48 <pgroth> can't hear you harry
15:40:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]
15:41:19 <SamCoppens> zakim, [IPcaller.aa] is SamCoppens
15:41:19 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
15:41:22 <hhalpin> cvs on rdf
15:41:34 <jcheney> Harry: want declarative vocabulary, but also want (distributed?) CVS for RDF
15:42:01 <hhalpin> versioning and vocabulary and realtime update mechanism
15:42:14 <hhalpin> atom/xmpp/json
15:42:15 <jcheney> Versioning a subset of prov vocabulary, and real-time (change driven) update mechanism.  
15:42:44 <ssahoo2> would RDF named graph help in managing RDF graph versioning?
15:42:49 <JimM_> yes
15:42:59 <jcheney> Really would like clear connection between prov and policy, trust.
15:43:37 <ssahoo2> q+
15:43:39 <jcheney> Social Web XG running until Sept 2010, drafts of final report in next month or two, will circulate
15:44:17 <hhalpin> ack ssahoo2
15:45:12 <jcheney> Satya: how complicated are queries in social web context?  is more complicated analysis of provenance required?
15:46:11 <jcheney> Harry: Example: want to distribute photo update to (possibly complicated) group of friends, possibly inferred from previous user actions
15:47:00 <jcheney> Satya: Could be related to comparison/diff of provenance graphs
15:47:37 <jcheney> Harry: No one does this yet, but coming - Google Buzz, facebook policy mishaps leading to changes, policy imposition
15:48:06 <jcheney> Privacy, trust wasn't built-into system
15:48:43 <jcheney> Satya: Requirement in eScience that users want to be able to repeat experiments.  Social web: reconstruct history?
15:49:34 <jcheney> Harry: Might want to be able to replay / script /infer actions or privacy policies
15:49:55 <jcheney> Example: User changes jobs, privacy policy for new job can be based on that for old job
15:50:36 <jcheney> Yolanda: Moving on to additional topics
15:50:46 <jcheney> Next item: RDF Next Steps workshop submission
15:51:35 <jcheney> Jun: Draft started last month, based on user requirements
15:52:17 <jcheney> Message: Need best practice for common requirements for PDF concerning provenance, vocabulary for provenance patterns
15:52:39 <jcheney> Need proper identity management (data, graphs, annotation) 
15:52:59 <pgroth> is it accepted?
15:53:23 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/images/3/3f/RDFNextStep_ProvXG-submitted.pdf
15:53:26 <pgroth> excellent!
15:53:32 <jcheney> Accepted for presentation, small changes needed
15:53:51 <jcheney> Three other papers mention provenance
15:54:00 <ivan> ian davis 
15:54:25 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/papers/ws06/, http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/papers/ws12, http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/papers/ws09
15:54:39 <jcheney> Next topic: Query provenance (Irini)
15:55:37 <jcheney> Irini: goal was to show how existing relational data provenance models can be used for SPARQL/RDF
15:55:41 <jcheney> http://www.csd.uoc.gr/~theohari/files/OnProvenanceOfQueriesForWebData.pdf
15:55:56 <jcheney> Showed that existing model works for positive SPARQL
15:56:05 <jcheney> Negation problematic (as usual...)
15:56:34 <jcheney> Thanks to Olaf for comments
15:56:53 <jcheney> Can discuss in future meeting
15:57:02 <Zakim> -harry
15:57:04 <jcheney> Yolanda: Questions?
15:57:20 <Zakim> - +1.619.223.aaaa
15:58:12 <jcheney> Next topic: New use case, internet architecture use case
15:58:30 <Zakim> - +0238059aaee
15:58:46 <jcheney> Will revisit next week
15:58:57 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:58:57 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:58:58 <jcheney> Adjourned
15:58:59 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:58:59 <Zakim> -??P29
15:59:00 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:59:00 <Zakim> -Lalana
15:59:01 <Zakim> -Yolanda
15:59:01 <Zakim> - +1.937.775.aadd
15:59:03 <Zakim> - +1.518.763.aaff
15:59:04 <Zakim> -smiles
15:59:06 <Zakim> -Irini
15:59:08 <Zakim> -??P14
15:59:10 <Zakim> -michaelp
15:59:11 <afreitas> afreitas has left #prov-xg
15:59:12 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
15:59:14 <Zakim> -olaf
15:59:16 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
15:59:18 <Zakim> -jcheney
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15:59:20 <Zakim> - +1.617.768.aabb
15:59:30 <jcheney> rrsagent, set log public
15:59:36 <jcheney> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/21-prov-xg-minutes.html jcheney
15:59:40 <Zakim> - +86528aacc
15:59:41 <Zakim> INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has ended
15:59:42 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], Yolanda, SamCoppens, smiles, +1.619.223.aaaa, jcheney, Ivan, +1.617.768.aabb, Irini, olaf, michaelp, +86528aacc, +1.937.775.aadd, +0238059aaee, harry,
15:59:45 <Zakim> ... +1.518.763.aaff, Lalana
15:59:45 <jcheney> trackbot, end telcon
15:59:45 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:59:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/21-prov-xg-minutes.html trackbot
15:59:46 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:59:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:59:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items