IRC log of ua on 2010-05-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:31:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:31:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:31:29 [Zakim]
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16:31:31 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:31:31 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
16:31:32 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:31:32 [trackbot]
Date: 20 May 2010
16:51:46 [jeanne]
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16:55:55 [Greg]
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16:59:03 [Jan]
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17:00:06 [sharper]
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Zakim, code?
17:00:19 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:00:57 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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17:01:37 [sharper]
zakim, ??P17 is sharper
17:01:37 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
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+ +1.650.253.aaaa
17:02:00 [Jan]
zakim, who's here?
17:02:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Greg, Jeanne, mscottm, sharper, +1.650.253.aaaa
17:02:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sharper, Jan, Greg, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, trackbot
17:02:59 [Zakim]
17:03:31 [Zakim]
17:04:16 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Google Chrome discussion with Jonas Klink
17:04:18 [AllanJ]
Chrome Accessibility Developers site
17:04:20 [AllanJ]
17:04:21 [AllanJ]
17:04:23 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Survey
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17:08:14 [jeanne]
17:08:33 [Zakim]
17:09:52 [AllanJ]
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17:10:53 [Greg]
zakim, take up item 1
17:10:53 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Google Chrome discussion with Jonas Klink" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:10:59 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ The HTML A11y TF will ask UAAG WG to review UI interaction/interface issues in HTML5 and jointly work with TF to develop appropriate content in an appropriate document.
17:11:12 [Greg]
Jonas of Google, based in Moutain View, CA. Developer for 4 years at Google, on a wide range of features, including initial work on accessibility features that have now been taken over by a team Now focus on community and overall story. He's part of access engineering team, based mostly in Mountain View and some in Santa Monica.
17:11:23 [Greg]
Introductions all around.
17:14:55 [Greg]
Jonas will serve as a resource to UAWG as much as he can, and will see if others on his team will participate.
17:15:32 [AllanJ]
17:15:40 [Greg]
Jonas gave an overview. He wrote and maintains an accessibility design document, which is available on
17:16:02 [Greg]
It contains introductory guidelines and goes into detail on the work he's done.
17:16:52 [Greg]
At an interesting point, not as far as they'd like to be, but development has been slow as for a long time he was the only resources. Adding API to a multi-process browser has been complicated.
17:17:46 [Greg]
Working with screen readers and moving between focusable content with screen readers should be working fully soon, including the virtual buffer screen readers require.
17:18:17 [Greg]
ARIA support should work on Chrome whererver it's supported by WebKit, and hope to go beyond that.
17:19:11 [Greg]
Work ongoing on MSAA, most places now.
17:19:21 [Greg]
Full page zoom in place.
17:19:41 [Greg]
Extensions support high contrast, but not Windows high contrast mode.
17:20:10 [Greg]
He posts workarounds in his document where he can find them.
17:21:29 [Greg]
Jonas has looked at UAAG. Their primary goal has been to be similar or better support than Firefox; he's worked with David Bolter from Firefox to try to identify what Firefox does, including in obscure circumstances, to try to be consistent.
17:21:50 [Greg]
They have not worked with Microsoft/IE yet.
17:22:10 [Greg]
Kim asked about link numbering; Jonas says it does not exist yet but interesting concept.
17:24:06 [Greg]
Jim asked about HTML5 video, and his concern that there are divergent interefaces. Jim would like to see a rich set of controls native to the browser, which the content author can use or skin, or to which they can map custom controls. Will Chrome provide a rich set of controls?
17:24:32 [Greg]
Jonas will look into that question, ask the people in Kirkland working on the audio and video tags.
17:24:59 [Greg]
Jim notes that they hope this will make it into the HTML5 spec, but certainly will be in UAAG.
17:25:34 [Greg]
Jonas notes that, Chrome (Chromium) being open source, he tries to be as open as possible on accessibility.
17:26:33 [Greg]
Jeanne asked about Google's exciting news about protocols on video, wondered how it handles captioning.
17:27:03 [Greg]
Part of Jonas' team is responsible for captioning.
17:27:15 [Greg]
They have a close working relationship with YouTube.
17:28:07 [Greg]
Kim asked about keyboard shortcuts and discoverability, and about conflicts between shortcuts in browser and content. Any plans to let users have easy access to discover and adjust keyboard shortcuts?
17:29:26 [Greg]
Jonas says keyboard shortcuts are tricky. Try not to conflict with browser's shortcuts if they can avoid it, but Google Docs for example does override browser behavior to provide user-familiar shortcuts for document editing.
17:30:07 [Greg]
Jonas would like to see more keyboard customizability, but probably more in Chrome OS where they have more control.
17:30:45 [Greg]
"AccessJacks" effort at Google allows adding keyboard overlay to Web apps. In early phases. Trying to standardize between web apps and eventually want to support greater customizability.
17:31:25 [Greg]
Google staff have tried to enumerate shortcuts, but can't provide shortcuts without conflicting with some browser in some language.
17:31:45 [Greg]
Kim suggested ability to share user customizations.
17:31:56 [AllanJ]
/me good question!!
17:31:59 [Greg]
Jonas said the idea has come up, but just an idea at this point.
17:32:56 [Greg]
"AccessJacks" lives on Google Code site, and is live in some products, and Jonas is revising docs to be easier to start with.
17:33:15 [Greg]
Jim notes portable profiles are a UAAG20 success criterion.
17:34:17 [Greg]
Jonas notes extensions could potentially support roaming user profiles.
17:35:02 [AllanJ]
gl: are you specializing on chrome or all of google
17:35:11 [AllanJ]
jonas: all of google
17:35:18 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
17:35:53 [AllanJ]
gl: how closely to the groups including accessibility work together
17:36:21 [AllanJ]
jonas: a11y is a horizontal group, we belong to all and none
17:36:37 [AllanJ]
... may embed ourselves in a group, or consult.
17:36:54 [AllanJ]
... I work mostly with other product managers
17:37:06 [AllanJ]
... engineers are embedded in product groups
17:37:22 [AllanJ]
... i focus on research, and broad picture.
17:37:33 [AllanJ]
ack mark
17:37:46 [AllanJ]
scribe: gl
17:38:25 [Greg]
Mark asks about accessibility to the visual document maps.
17:38:36 [Greg]
"Density map"
17:38:58 [Greg]
Jonas says no plan yet, would like input/suggestions.
17:39:27 [Greg]
Mark asks about ChromeOS. What are they looking at in terms of accessibility on devices like set top boxes running ChromeOS?
17:39:58 [Greg]
Jonas notes that early set top boxes are running Android, so access solutions in Android should work on set-top boxes, including self voicing, etc.
17:40:27 [Greg]
Re running browsers on set top boxes, have same keyboard model as on desktop, but just starting to look at how pieces will fit together, re AT etc.
17:40:58 [Greg]
Mark asks about notification API that was in HTML5, and in WebKit. is it part of Chrome?
17:41:15 [Greg]
Jonas will look into that.
17:42:02 [Greg]
Mark explained the notification API to let a script in content to raise notification (e.g. you have new mail).
17:42:32 [Greg]
Jonas says it appears to be an experiment one can enable via a command-line switch, but little documentation.
17:43:53 [AllanJ]
17:44:11 [Greg]
Jonas clarified what I spelled AccessJacks is spelled "axsjax".
17:45:33 [Greg]
Kim asks how we should report accessibility bugs in Google products. Jonas said can send to him and he'll open as internal bugs,
17:46:34 [Greg]
Jan notes his org is building extensions and using axsjax.
17:49:40 [AllanJ]
s/Jan notes/Simon notes
17:50:47 [Greg]
Jonas asked how would be best way to inform UAWG about updates from his end. Jim says sending email to the list.
17:52:02 [Greg]
Discussion of how to get Jonas officially onto the working group, but Jonas can contribute and participate without being official.
17:52:22 [sharper]
Some initial stuff on YouTube but I'm still looking for the AxsJAX demo
17:52:37 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
17:53:08 [AllanJ]
gl: please give your impression of how accessibility is viewed at google
17:53:51 [AllanJ]
jonas: biggest problem is flat structure of company, and so many things going on
17:54:45 [AllanJ]
... philosophy, want to do accessibility, but it needs to be productionized. low latency, secure, etc.
17:55:40 [Zakim]
17:55:41 [AllanJ]
... challenge to be useful and feasible to create and not slow down, or break/weaken something
17:55:59 [Zakim]
17:56:38 [AllanJ]
... google is very engineering centric
17:59:37 [AllanJ]
jonas: work with product managers to specify a11y need, and make a play.
18:00:01 [AllanJ]
... a11y eng. team is growing
18:01:06 [AllanJ]
... finding a11y engineers is difficult
18:01:24 [AllanJ]
... likes to collaborate
18:02:26 [Greg]
Does anyone in product groups have responsibility? He works closely with all review entities within google, e.g. ui review. All new features go through review process, where he gets to provide early feedback. then testers live on internal testing list where new feature is announced and put out for dog-fooding. Acc pieces identified Jonas works directly with product manager to specify needs....
18:02:27 [Greg]
...They identify resource in their team doing the work, who often gets paired with person from access engineering team. Just getting to level where enough resources to work with the major products. Trying to get good engineers is tough, the gating problem. He enjoys collaborating, he's personally interested in low vision support in their Web apps. Think they have a good solution which...
18:02:29 [Greg]
...he'll be able to talk about soon.
18:02:43 [Greg]
Jim asks about keyboard access to tooltips.
18:03:17 [Greg]
Jonas added such to Chrome UI, but would like to see it in browser as well, considers it a pet peeve.
18:03:49 [Greg]
Jim notes that most Web content has to invent or implement their own mechanism, lots of code for something that the browser should handle.
18:05:40 [Greg]
Jim notes that UAAG20 has a plethora of SC requiring "user has abilities to" or "user has option". Jim asked where Chrome would expose many settings.
18:05:56 [Greg]
Jonas said Chrome hates options, keeps them to bare minimum, very difficult to add new ones.
18:06:39 [Greg]
Jonas says that instead of options, can be implemented as extensions, but those can be difficult to find and find out about.
18:07:22 [Greg]
He notes that roaming user profiles would allow extensions to follow users.
18:08:43 [Greg]
Kim reiterated need for sharing profiles; Greg noted need to be able to share particular set of settings without replacing all the other settings the user has chosen.
18:10:57 [Greg]
Simon asked how Chrome might handle decentralized accessibility concept coming out of HTML5 etc. The idea of extending the language without formally defining them. Extend HTML5 spec but still validate. Crowd-sourcing new elements in HTML etc.
18:11:43 [Greg]
Jonas recognizes that as a huge accessibility problem.
18:13:53 [Greg]
Jim asked if Jonas or his engineers could review UAAG20 and give feedback, on what's easy, hard, feasible, infeasible, etc.. Jonas offered to do so.
18:15:00 [Greg]
Jeanne notes they'd love to see Google be one of the first implementers of UAAG20. Roughly a year from finalization, so feedback is important.
18:16:15 [Greg]
Jim asked if AT vendors are actively testing with Chrome, and their feedback.
18:16:52 [Greg]
Jonas said NVDA and Serotek have been the most responsive. Google also tests with Jaws and Window-Eyes as well.
18:17:26 [Greg]
Not much exchange of info with the last two so far; working most closely with the most responsive companies. Once it's working, will reach out again to other companies.
18:18:04 [Greg]
Re accessibility API on other platforms, Mac one being worked on. Cocao being used so some is automatic.
18:18:37 [Greg]
Other work on Mac in the roadmap. No resource for Linux yet, so that will be last.
18:20:01 [Greg]
Re IAccessible2, it is being implemented now, might be part of most recent change, extending IAccessible with IAccessible2. Roles and states and unique ID, window handles, etc., all supported this week. Yet to go is IAccessibleText, form controls, etc., once virtual buffer is finalized.
18:20:14 [Greg]
Should all be updated in the design document he pointed to earlier.
18:21:08 [AllanJ] google chromium bug tracker
18:21:45 [Greg]
We are invited to submit bugs on, the official bug tracker for Chrome and Chromium. Jonas does triage on all bugs coming in. There's a change log online covering week by week, and spreadsheet tracking all accessibility bugs in the main repository.
18:22:31 [Greg]
Design document at
18:22:54 [Greg]
Changelog and issue tracker:
18:23:48 [Greg]
Anyone can file bugs, but if you don't have special access to the bug tracker (not actively developing) then can only file summary and description, can't provide categorization, and no way to cc a particular person or team. Therefore best to email Jonas.
18:25:57 [Greg]
Kim asks if there's anything Jonas would like from us, and Jonas said mostly to spread the word on what does and doesn't work.
18:28:05 [Greg]
zakim, take up item 3
18:28:05 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "The HTML A11y TF will ask UAAG WG to review UI interaction/interface issues in HTML5 and jointly work with TF to develop appropriate content in an appropriate
18:28:09 [Zakim]
... document." taken up [from AllanJ]
18:28:36 [Greg]
Jim notes that the HTML5 task force bounced most of our issues back to us to provide more details and specific recommendations.
18:29:23 [Zakim]
18:29:44 [Greg]
HTML5 has a lot of info on what browsers should do on handling HTML, and some stuff on user interface expectations and behaviors. Consensus of accessibility task force is to take that out of HTML spec and put into UAAG space.
18:30:31 [Greg]
Jim noted that we lack resources do to that, so might have engineers from HTML5 or its accessibility task force work with us on that.
18:31:27 [Greg]
Jeanne asked about HTML5 referencing/linking to UAAG, and would certainly do so if they move behaviors here.
18:32:18 [Zakim]
- +1.650.253.aaaa
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18:34:25 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
18:35:40 [AllanJ]
chair: Jim_Allan
18:35:46 [Zakim]
18:36:49 [AllanJ]
regrets: kelly_ford
18:38:04 [AllanJ]
present: JimAllan, KimPatch, Jeanne, GregL, SimonH, MarkH, JonasKlink
18:38:15 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
18:38:15 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Greg, Jeanne, mscottm, sharper, +1.650.253.aaaa, kimpatch, allanj, Mark_Hakkinen
18:38:15 [Zakim]
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18:38:46 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
18:41:43 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
18:41:43 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items