IRC log of fx on 2010-05-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:02:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #fx
20:02:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:02:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
20:02:12 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3983
20:02:12 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
20:02:13 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
20:02:13 [trackbot]
Date: 17 May 2010
20:04:26 [Zakim]
20:04:41 [ed]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
20:04:41 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:05:03 [Zakim]
20:05:29 [smfr]
smfr has joined #fx
20:06:03 [ed]
20:07:00 [shepazu]
Zakim, who is here?
20:07:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Shepazu, David_Baron, ed, smfr
20:07:02 [Zakim]
On IRC I see smfr, RRSAgent, Zakim, TabAtkins_, dbaron, ed, f1lt3r, anthony, shepazu, anne, TabAtkins, plinss_, fantasai, plinss, trackbot
20:07:15 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #fx
20:07:32 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:07:32 [Zakim]
Loretta_Guarino_Reid should now be muted
20:07:34 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
20:07:34 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL
20:07:43 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:07:43 [Zakim]
Loretta_Guarino_Reid should no longer be muted
20:07:49 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has changed the topic to: code is 3983
20:07:56 [dbaron]
Zakim, Loretta_Guarino_Reid is Tab_Atkins
20:07:56 [Zakim]
+Tab_Atkins; got it
20:08:13 [smfr]
20:08:34 [Zakim]
20:09:10 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
20:09:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tab_Atkins, Shepazu, David_Baron, ed, smfr, ChrisL
20:09:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisL, smfr, RRSAgent, Zakim, TabAtkins_, dbaron, ed, f1lt3r, anthony, shepazu, anne, TabAtkins, plinss_, fantasai, plinss, trackbot
20:10:18 [TabAtkins_]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
20:10:24 [TabAtkins_]
ScribeNick: TabAtkins_
20:10:42 [ed]
Topic: transform-origin
20:10:46 [ed]
20:11:26 [TabAtkins_]
ed: For transform-origin, we want to be compatible with svg.
20:11:34 [TabAtkins_]
ed: I don't think we can defualt ot 50% 50%
20:11:51 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Sounds like we may need an 'auto' value that does 0 0 for SVG and 50% 50% for other things.
20:11:59 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: That's a good way to split up automatic values.
20:12:12 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: it's not clear what the property does at all for SVG, particularly %ages.
20:12:19 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: So maybe we should map all %s to 0
20:12:23 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: I think people would find that puzzling.
20:12:40 [TabAtkins_]
ed: I think it's fine if you specify the transform-origin to something explicit, it should apply to SVG.
20:12:52 [TabAtkins_]
ed: But it shouldn't counteract what is happening in SVG today.
20:13:10 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Devil's advocate, is it okay to have diferent defaults for different languages?
20:13:20 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: We did that alreayd, with pointer-events in HTML and SVG.
20:13:56 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: So if there's precedent, sure.
20:14:08 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Are there any SVg elements for which % do make sense?
20:14:43 [TabAtkins_]
ed: %s are relative to the box in CSS, right? So we'd say it was relative to the bounding box in SVG?
20:14:54 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Or the origin, but I think it makes more sense to the bounding box.
20:15:13 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: It has to be related to the height and width somehow. For a path, I think it'd be weird to do the bounding box.
20:15:34 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: SVG only has width and height for one element, the rectangle.
20:15:46 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: You could kinda say it has that for ellipse, but...
20:15:54 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: Any drawn element has a bounding box, though.
20:16:10 [TabAtkins_]
ed: It doesn't *always* make sense for paths, but I think it's intuitive enough for most cases.
20:16:29 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: I think the bounding box is the closest analogue to the CSS idea, and that's what makes sense to me.
20:16:46 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Should we resist using %s at all?
20:16:58 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: We have to do something about %s. Can it inherit from HTML into SVG?
20:17:07 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Regardless, we still have to say what happens if it's set explicitly.
20:17:13 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: No, can't inherit.
20:17:26 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: I think if you can do it in CSS, it makes sense to consider allowing it in SVG.
20:17:28 [smfr]
s/can't/does not
20:17:42 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: I don't see what is inherently wrong with allowing %s in SVG.
20:18:15 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Ok, so is anything suggested in the original email?
20:18:45 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: He makes a good point about <g> elements containing animated stuff.
20:18:55 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: It gets tricky.
20:19:24 [TabAtkins_]
ed: A <g> element would always have a bounding box, even if it changes over time if it's animated.
20:19:31 [TabAtkins_]
ed: The same is true for any animation in SVG in a group.
20:19:42 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: In some sense setting the transform-origin on the bounding box of a group makes more sense.
20:20:49 [ChrisL]
setting origin based on the bounding box of a group could be handy. its the sum of the bbox of its childrten, so if some children are changing size it can be handy to add a (non visible) child
20:20:52 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: It might be useful for us to jot down a bunch of use-cases for transform-origin, and think through some different applications.
20:21:05 [ChrisL]
and then its bbox with be its parents bbox, if it is big enough
20:21:08 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Like what ChrisL mentioned just now.
20:21:54 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: And other things would conflict or reinforce that. smfr, could you draw up some of those?
20:21:59 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: [lists some examples]
20:22:34 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: I know that scaling has always been a pain for me; I usually want it to expand around the center point, not the origin.
20:22:40 [Zakim]
20:23:03 [TabAtkins_]
ed: You can only specify one transform-origin, right?
20:23:05 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: yeah.
20:23:15 [TabAtkins_]
ed: So you can't use it for really advanced things, but for simple cases it's really handy.
20:23:24 [TabAtkins_]
ed: So if you want to transform and rotate with different origins?
20:23:41 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: You'd have to either put two elements with different origins, or build it into the transitions.
20:23:50 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: This also makes it easy to animate the transform-origin itself.
20:24:29 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: This is one of the things people are going to use for unexpected/unusual things, so it'll be hard to comprehensively list use-cases, but we can take a stab at thatm.
20:24:39 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: One thing you can do with transform-origin, but not normal transforms...
20:24:50 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Are we talking about use-cases for %s, or...?
20:25:24 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: %s as opposed to keywords, or opposed to absolute lengths?
20:25:28 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Absolute lenghts.
20:25:49 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Say I had two icons, 60px wide and 45px wide. I want both to double their size around their center point when I mouse over them.
20:26:06 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: I don't want separate transformations, I'd rather just have one that says "grow them from their center point".
20:26:09 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: That's a good use-case.
20:26:54 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: If something happens at 50% 50%, that's of the current transformed value, not the original "absolute" value, right?
20:27:09 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: So if I rotated something and scaled it, the 50% would be post-transformation?
20:27:34 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: [gives examples of what it means, to answer "yes" to the question]
20:27:58 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: When transform-origin is applied to multiple things, I think we need to lay out exactly the way in which it is applied.
20:28:04 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: And make good tests for it.
20:28:26 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I'm slightly concerned about using bounding-box, because in HTML it's relative to the border-box. overflow doesn't change the border-box.
20:29:16 [Zakim]
20:29:23 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Is the bounding-box affected by filters?
20:29:26 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: No.
20:29:40 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: In SVG2 we're adding different script methods to take into account filters, strokes, etc.
20:29:52 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: but getboundingBox() just returns the "core geometry" of the shape.
20:30:02 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Okay, that's all right then.
20:30:14 [TabAtkins_]
ed: So it sounds like we have resolution then.
20:30:33 [TabAtkins_]
ed: To let SVG %s be relative to the bounding-box.
20:30:49 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: And to have an initial 'auto' value that has different behavior for SVg and HTML.
20:30:52 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Right.
20:31:53 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: I just saw an email form Anthony where he asked for editors, and Dean suggested Simon and Dean.
20:33:13 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION smfr, anthony: Add 'auto' value for transform origin, make %s be relative to bounding box in SVG.
20:33:13 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - smfr,
20:33:29 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION Simon, anthony: Add 'auto' value for transform origin, make %s be relative to bounding box in SVG.
20:33:29 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Simon,
20:33:33 [ChrisL]
trackbot, status?
20:33:45 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION Anthony , Simon: Add 'auto' value for transform origin, make %s be relative to bounding box in SVG.
20:33:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-10 - , Simon: Add 'auto' value for transform origin, make %s be relative to bounding box in SVG. [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-05-24].
20:34:35 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Also, add Simon and Dean to edit the spec.
20:35:51 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION Simon: Reply to Dr. Olaf's email.
20:35:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-11 - Reply to Dr. Olaf's email. [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-05-24].
20:36:50 [TabAtkins_]
ed: [another email]
20:37:03 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: Seemed like a fine email, nothing contentious. We could go over it, certainly.
20:37:16 [ed]
topic: merged css/svg transforms 2d spec
20:37:17 [ed]
20:37:31 [ed]
20:39:49 [TabAtkins_]
ed: I think I agree with all the changes in here. It's just a question of who will make the changes.
20:39:54 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Me or Dean can do it.
20:40:05 [TabAtkins_]
20:40:21 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION Simon: Make changes suggested in Dean's email.
20:40:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-12 - Make changes suggested in Dean's email. [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-05-24].
20:40:49 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: Wiki/Location for FX
20:40:57 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Do we have a wiki or something for fx?
20:41:00 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: Yes.
20:41:24 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: It was broken, and I'm not sure if it's been fixed yet.
20:41:36 [ChrisL]
20:42:04 [ed] (that's a broken link)
20:42:47 [shepazu]
20:42:50 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: There's nothing at fx, but fx/wiki works.
20:43:09 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: So let's just redirect to /wiki
20:43:27 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I still can't get in; I'm getting an incorrect password.
20:45:25 [TabAtkins_]
[various discussion over who can log in and who can't]
20:45:35 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Any updates on actions since last time?
20:45:44 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I havne't had time to write on wiki anything about image transitions from last time.
20:45:49 [ChrisL]
Open actions at
20:45:59 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Anything else we need to discuss?
20:46:11 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I'd like to talk about exposing SVg filters in HTML.
20:46:22 [TabAtkins_]
Topic: Exposing SVG Filters in HTML
20:46:36 [Zakim]
20:46:45 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I'd like to have a way to apply SVG filters from CSS with some syntax that references filters from an SVG file.
20:46:59 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: But in addition I'd like to see several very simple filters as their own properties.
20:47:06 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P11 is me
20:47:06 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
20:47:08 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: In SVGWG we're calling those "canned effects".
20:47:15 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Where would you like to see that spec?
20:47:30 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I think that much like this transform stuff, this sits between SVG and CSS.
20:47:38 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: It's going to be wrapping up SVG filters that exist in CSS.
20:47:44 [TabAtkins_]
ed: So you'd prefer a separate spec?
20:47:53 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: yeah, like what we're doing with 2d transforms.
20:48:10 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Simon, are you saying that the filters spec should be in FXTF rather than SVG?
20:48:27 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I don't mind the main filters spec living in SVG, as long as as it evolves it is applicable to HTML.
20:48:35 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: And whatever we set up between that and CSS continues to work.
20:48:36 [dbaron]
q+ to talk about what Mozilla already implements, adding to filters for CSS "layers" (and relationship to box-shadow, text-shadow, etc.)
20:48:50 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: I think on the Filters spec, it lists that explicitly as a design goal.
20:49:14 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Mozilla's been shipping support for referencing an SVG filter from HTML for a while.
20:49:38 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: One thing I think would be very useful for filters in html would be having support for "source graphic"/"source alpha"/etc.
20:49:50 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Whatever those are called, we probably want to think about extending those to work better with CSS.
20:50:07 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: Things like separating the background from the border form the content, etc.
20:50:22 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: in the discussion for the box-shadow property, there's a lot of discussion about what sort of effects people want to shadow.
20:50:34 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: And I think everyone has a different mental image about what is being shadowed.
20:51:02 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: And I think that once authors see that box-shadows shadows X not Y, they'll want that choice.
20:51:15 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_: BradK brought up that sort of idea in the last CSS ftf at TPAC.
20:51:31 [ChrisL]
so we would want to get at the content, the background, the padding, and the border (or perhaps several of the eight sections of the border)
20:51:41 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Agreed that calling out specific parts of the image would be useful, to be filtering on.
20:52:31 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: I think you can get a transluscency effect right now by blurring something on top rather than below, like a reverse drop-shadow. Like seeing through transluscent glass.
20:52:57 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Trying to find the part in the Filters spec where we say we expect other specs to extend the set of keywords.
20:53:17 [ed]
20:53:19 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: The processing.js people have been doing some very cool things with applying SVG filters to html video, etc.
20:54:15 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Actually, I think the spec currently doesn't say that we allow the to be extended, but it does say that other specs need to define what the keywords mean.
20:54:27 [TabAtkins_]
ed: But I don't disagree with extending the keywords.
20:54:45 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: What are our next steps in this area?
20:54:54 [TabAtkins_]
ed: I can take an action to add that to the filters spec.
20:55:15 [TabAtkins_]
ed: I think we can start a wiki page for what CSS shorthand we want for filters, and what primitives we want to expose in that way.
20:55:31 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I or David can contribute some thoughts on Moz's impl.
20:56:08 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: We haven't extended it, we just have the CSS filter property that can be applied to any element.
20:56:18 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: So when you apply a filter, what is it applied to?
20:56:27 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: The whole thing; the border/background/etc.
20:56:35 [TabAtkins_]
dbaron: I think it works like opacity and creates a new stacking context.
20:56:41 [dbaron]
(but not sure about that)
20:56:56 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: The processing.js people want to apply multiple filters to the same content.
20:57:01 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: I guess they would be sequential.
20:57:21 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Chainging filters together?
20:57:23 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: yes.
20:57:28 [dbaron]
20:57:52 [fantasai]
We discussed a list of things you'd want to apply filters to at a recent F2F
20:57:58 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: Are we talking about just one spec? Filters, and canned filters are part of that? Or two different specs?
20:58:17 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: Is there any precedent for an SVg spec to describe CSS properties that can apply to HTML?
20:58:22 [TabAtkins_]
ChrisL: Not specifically to html.
20:58:39 [fantasai]
20:58:40 [TabAtkins_]
shepazu: We can talk about CSS properties, but frex none of the border properties apply to CSS at the moment.
20:58:54 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: My feeling is that we should have a new spec under public-fx for the combined filters.
20:59:02 [TabAtkins_]
ed: Makes sense. I'd like to be one of the editors.
20:59:07 [TabAtkins_]
smfr: I could be an editor too.
20:59:07 [fantasai]
makes sense to me too
20:59:14 [fantasai]
but I would not like to be an editor too :)
20:59:30 [Zakim]
20:59:31 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION eric: Start the spec for SVG filters in CSS.
20:59:31 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - eric
20:59:38 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION Eric: Start the spec for SVG filters in CSS.
20:59:38 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Eric
20:59:57 [TabAtkins_]
ACTION Erik: Start the spec for SVG filters in CSS.
20:59:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-13 - Start the spec for SVG filters in CSS. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-05-24].
21:00:19 [Zakim]
21:00:20 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
21:00:21 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, David_Baron, ed, smfr, Tab_Atkins, ChrisL, anthony
21:00:22 [Zakim]
21:00:30 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:00:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
21:00:54 [Zakim]
21:01:12 [ChrisL]
Chair: Erik
21:01:13 [Zakim]
21:01:14 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:01:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
21:02:13 [ChrisL]
Regrets: Dino
21:02:16 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:02:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
21:02:18 [Zakim]
21:02:20 [Zakim]
21:02:21 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
21:02:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shepazu, David_Baron, ed, smfr, Tab_Atkins, ChrisL, anthony
21:10:59 [TabAtkins]
shepazu: You need feeding? We have a vegetarian meal planned for two nights already, and another meal or two can be easily be made without meat for part of it.
21:11:59 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: that would be lovely, though I don't really know what my evening plans are... there are probably some conference-related things going on
21:12:16 [shepazu]
are you telling me that you guys actually plan your meals?
21:12:25 [shepazu]
that's astounding...
21:12:30 [TabAtkins]
kk. If you let us know reasonably ahead of time (by 4 or so) if you're skipping dinner we can make the meat ones that night.
21:12:40 [TabAtkins]
And yes, we plan our meals weekly. How else would we know what to buy?
21:12:56 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: and I'd like to socialize with y'all, but I also don't want to burden you
21:13:09 [shepazu]
I can call ahead with my plans, yes
21:13:11 [TabAtkins]
shepazu: We play videogames most nights. Our social life is not exactly stellar.
21:13:15 [shepazu]
21:13:27 [TabAtkins]
If you have boardgames and can bring them, do so.
21:13:46 [shepazu]
"That's social. Pathetic and sad, but social." -Breakfast Club
21:14:00 [shepazu]
oh, yes, I have some good boardgame
21:14:01 [shepazu]
21:14:18 [shepazu]
have you played Small World or Dominion?
21:14:23 [TabAtkins]
21:14:27 [shepazu]
21:14:32 [shepazu]
I'll bring one of those
21:14:36 [TabAtkins]
Honestly the only eurogame I've ever played was through the desert.
21:14:51 [shepazu]
21:14:58 [shepazu]
well, then I'll bring a couple
21:15:11 [shepazu]
something short, and something more involved
21:15:15 [TabAtkins]
21:15:19 [shepazu]
21:15:22 [shepazu]
thanks again
21:15:24 [TabAtkins]
21:15:39 [TabAtkins]
We have a largish house, so it's easy to put people up for a few nights.
22:06:11 [smfr]
smfr has left #fx