20:02:08 RRSAgent has joined #fx 20:02:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/17-fx-irc 20:02:10 RRSAgent, make logs world 20:02:12 Zakim, this will be 3983 20:02:12 ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago 20:02:13 Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference 20:02:13 Date: 17 May 2010 20:04:26 +??P6 20:04:41 Zakim, ??P6 is me 20:04:41 +ed; got it 20:05:03 +smfr 20:05:29 smfr has joined #fx 20:06:03 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010AprJun/0056.html 20:07:00 Zakim, who is here? 20:07:00 On the phone I see Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Shepazu, David_Baron, ed, smfr 20:07:02 On IRC I see smfr, RRSAgent, Zakim, TabAtkins_, dbaron, ed, f1lt3r, anthony, shepazu, anne, TabAtkins, plinss_, fantasai, plinss, trackbot 20:07:15 ChrisL has joined #fx 20:07:32 Zakim, mute Loretta_Guarino_Reid 20:07:32 Loretta_Guarino_Reid should now be muted 20:07:34 zakim, code? 20:07:34 the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL 20:07:43 Zakim, unmute Loretta_Guarino_Reid 20:07:43 Loretta_Guarino_Reid should no longer be muted 20:07:49 ChrisL has changed the topic to: code is 3983 20:07:56 Zakim, Loretta_Guarino_Reid is Tab_Atkins 20:07:56 +Tab_Atkins; got it 20:08:13 http://qconsf.com/sf2008/speaker/Loretta+Guarino+Reid 20:08:34 +ChrisL 20:09:10 zakim, who is here? 20:09:10 On the phone I see Tab_Atkins, Shepazu, David_Baron, ed, smfr, ChrisL 20:09:11 On IRC I see ChrisL, smfr, RRSAgent, Zakim, TabAtkins_, dbaron, ed, f1lt3r, anthony, shepazu, anne, TabAtkins, plinss_, fantasai, plinss, trackbot 20:10:18 ScribeNick: TabAtkins 20:10:24 ScribeNick: TabAtkins_ 20:10:42 Topic: transform-origin 20:10:46 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010AprJun/0053.html 20:11:26 ed: For transform-origin, we want to be compatible with svg. 20:11:34 ed: I don't think we can defualt ot 50% 50% 20:11:51 smfr: Sounds like we may need an 'auto' value that does 0 0 for SVG and 50% 50% for other things. 20:11:59 ChrisL: That's a good way to split up automatic values. 20:12:12 dbaron: it's not clear what the property does at all for SVG, particularly %ages. 20:12:19 dbaron: So maybe we should map all %s to 0 20:12:23 ChrisL: I think people would find that puzzling. 20:12:40 ed: I think it's fine if you specify the transform-origin to something explicit, it should apply to SVG. 20:12:52 ed: But it shouldn't counteract what is happening in SVG today. 20:13:10 shepazu: Devil's advocate, is it okay to have diferent defaults for different languages? 20:13:20 smfr: We did that alreayd, with pointer-events in HTML and SVG. 20:13:56 shepazu: So if there's precedent, sure. 20:14:08 smfr: Are there any SVg elements for which % do make sense? 20:14:43 ed: %s are relative to the box in CSS, right? So we'd say it was relative to the bounding box in SVG? 20:14:54 shepazu: Or the origin, but I think it makes more sense to the bounding box. 20:15:13 smfr: It has to be related to the height and width somehow. For a path, I think it'd be weird to do the bounding box. 20:15:34 shepazu: SVG only has width and height for one element, the rectangle. 20:15:46 shepazu: You could kinda say it has that for ellipse, but... 20:15:54 ChrisL: Any drawn element has a bounding box, though. 20:16:10 ed: It doesn't *always* make sense for paths, but I think it's intuitive enough for most cases. 20:16:29 shepazu: I think the bounding box is the closest analogue to the CSS idea, and that's what makes sense to me. 20:16:46 smfr: Should we resist using %s at all? 20:16:58 ChrisL: We have to do something about %s. Can it inherit from HTML into SVG? 20:17:07 shepazu: Regardless, we still have to say what happens if it's set explicitly. 20:17:13 smfr: No, can't inherit. 20:17:26 shepazu: I think if you can do it in CSS, it makes sense to consider allowing it in SVG. 20:17:28 s/can't/does not 20:17:42 shepazu: I don't see what is inherently wrong with allowing %s in SVG. 20:18:15 ed: Ok, so is anything suggested in the original email? 20:18:45 smfr: He makes a good point about elements containing animated stuff. 20:18:55 smfr: It gets tricky. 20:19:24 ed: A element would always have a bounding box, even if it changes over time if it's animated. 20:19:31 ed: The same is true for any animation in SVG in a group. 20:19:42 ChrisL: In some sense setting the transform-origin on the bounding box of a group makes more sense. 20:20:49 setting origin based on the bounding box of a group could be handy. its the sum of the bbox of its childrten, so if some children are changing size it can be handy to add a (non visible) child 20:20:52 shepazu: It might be useful for us to jot down a bunch of use-cases for transform-origin, and think through some different applications. 20:21:05 and then its bbox with be its parents bbox, if it is big enough 20:21:08 shepazu: Like what ChrisL mentioned just now. 20:21:54 shepazu: And other things would conflict or reinforce that. smfr, could you draw up some of those? 20:21:59 smfr: [lists some examples] 20:22:34 shepazu: I know that scaling has always been a pain for me; I usually want it to expand around the center point, not the origin. 20:22:40 -ChrisL 20:23:03 ed: You can only specify one transform-origin, right? 20:23:05 smfr: yeah. 20:23:15 ed: So you can't use it for really advanced things, but for simple cases it's really handy. 20:23:24 ed: So if you want to transform and rotate with different origins? 20:23:41 smfr: You'd have to either put two elements with different origins, or build it into the transitions. 20:23:50 smfr: This also makes it easy to animate the transform-origin itself. 20:24:29 shepazu: This is one of the things people are going to use for unexpected/unusual things, so it'll be hard to comprehensively list use-cases, but we can take a stab at thatm. 20:24:39 smfr: One thing you can do with transform-origin, but not normal transforms... 20:24:50 smfr: Are we talking about use-cases for %s, or...? 20:25:24 shepazu: %s as opposed to keywords, or opposed to absolute lengths? 20:25:28 smfr: Absolute lenghts. 20:25:49 shepazu: Say I had two icons, 60px wide and 45px wide. I want both to double their size around their center point when I mouse over them. 20:26:06 shepazu: I don't want separate transformations, I'd rather just have one that says "grow them from their center point". 20:26:09 smfr: That's a good use-case. 20:26:54 shepazu: If something happens at 50% 50%, that's of the current transformed value, not the original "absolute" value, right? 20:27:09 shepazu: So if I rotated something and scaled it, the 50% would be post-transformation? 20:27:34 smfr: [gives examples of what it means, to answer "yes" to the question] 20:27:58 shepazu: When transform-origin is applied to multiple things, I think we need to lay out exactly the way in which it is applied. 20:28:04 shepazu: And make good tests for it. 20:28:26 smfr: I'm slightly concerned about using bounding-box, because in HTML it's relative to the border-box. overflow doesn't change the border-box. 20:29:16 +ChrisL 20:29:23 smfr: Is the bounding-box affected by filters? 20:29:26 shepazu: No. 20:29:40 shepazu: In SVG2 we're adding different script methods to take into account filters, strokes, etc. 20:29:52 shepazu: but getboundingBox() just returns the "core geometry" of the shape. 20:30:02 smfr: Okay, that's all right then. 20:30:14 ed: So it sounds like we have resolution then. 20:30:33 ed: To let SVG %s be relative to the bounding-box. 20:30:49 smfr: And to have an initial 'auto' value that has different behavior for SVg and HTML. 20:30:52 shepazu: Right. 20:31:53 ChrisL: I just saw an email form Anthony where he asked for editors, and Dean suggested Simon and Dean. 20:33:13 ACTION smfr, anthony: Add 'auto' value for transform origin, make %s be relative to bounding box in SVG. 20:33:13 Sorry, couldn't find user - smfr, 20:33:29 ACTION Simon, anthony: Add 'auto' value for transform origin, make %s be relative to bounding box in SVG. 20:33:29 Sorry, couldn't find user - Simon, 20:33:33 trackbot, status? 20:33:45 ACTION Anthony , Simon: Add 'auto' value for transform origin, make %s be relative to bounding box in SVG. 20:33:46 Created ACTION-10 - , Simon: Add 'auto' value for transform origin, make %s be relative to bounding box in SVG. [on Anthony Grasso - due 2010-05-24]. 20:34:35 ed: Also, add Simon and Dean to edit the spec. 20:35:51 ACTION Simon: Reply to Dr. Olaf's email. 20:35:52 Created ACTION-11 - Reply to Dr. Olaf's email. [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-05-24]. 20:36:50 ed: [another email] 20:37:03 ChrisL: Seemed like a fine email, nothing contentious. We could go over it, certainly. 20:37:16 topic: merged css/svg transforms 2d spec 20:37:17 http://www.w3.org/mid/4BE8E7EE.2080600@cisra.canon.com.au 20:37:31 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010AprJun/0057.html 20:39:49 ed: I think I agree with all the changes in here. It's just a question of who will make the changes. 20:39:54 smfr: Me or Dean can do it. 20:40:05 s/Me/I/ 20:40:21 ACTION Simon: Make changes suggested in Dean's email. 20:40:21 Created ACTION-12 - Make changes suggested in Dean's email. [on Simon Fraser - due 2010-05-24]. 20:40:49 Topic: Wiki/Location for FX 20:40:57 ed: Do we have a wiki or something for fx? 20:41:00 ChrisL: Yes. 20:41:24 ChrisL: It was broken, and I'm not sure if it's been fixed yet. 20:41:36 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Main_Page 20:42:04 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/ (that's a broken link) 20:42:47 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Main_Page 20:42:50 ChrisL: There's nothing at fx, but fx/wiki works. 20:43:09 shepazu: So let's just redirect to /wiki 20:43:27 smfr: I still can't get in; I'm getting an incorrect password. 20:45:25 [various discussion over who can log in and who can't] 20:45:35 ed: Any updates on actions since last time? 20:45:44 smfr: I havne't had time to write on wiki anything about image transitions from last time. 20:45:49 Open actions at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/track/actions/open 20:45:59 ed: Anything else we need to discuss? 20:46:11 smfr: I'd like to talk about exposing SVg filters in HTML. 20:46:22 Topic: Exposing SVG Filters in HTML 20:46:36 +??P11 20:46:45 smfr: I'd like to have a way to apply SVG filters from CSS with some syntax that references filters from an SVG file. 20:46:59 smfr: But in addition I'd like to see several very simple filters as their own properties. 20:47:06 Zakim, ??P11 is me 20:47:06 +anthony; got it 20:47:08 shepazu: In SVGWG we're calling those "canned effects". 20:47:15 ed: Where would you like to see that spec? 20:47:30 smfr: I think that much like this transform stuff, this sits between SVG and CSS. 20:47:38 smfr: It's going to be wrapping up SVG filters that exist in CSS. 20:47:44 ed: So you'd prefer a separate spec? 20:47:53 smfr: yeah, like what we're doing with 2d transforms. 20:48:10 shepazu: Simon, are you saying that the filters spec should be in FXTF rather than SVG? 20:48:27 smfr: I don't mind the main filters spec living in SVG, as long as as it evolves it is applicable to HTML. 20:48:35 smfr: And whatever we set up between that and CSS continues to work. 20:48:36 q+ to talk about what Mozilla already implements, adding to filters for CSS "layers" (and relationship to box-shadow, text-shadow, etc.) 20:48:50 ChrisL: I think on the Filters spec, it lists that explicitly as a design goal. 20:49:14 dbaron: Mozilla's been shipping support for referencing an SVG filter from HTML for a while. 20:49:38 dbaron: One thing I think would be very useful for filters in html would be having support for "source graphic"/"source alpha"/etc. 20:49:50 dbaron: Whatever those are called, we probably want to think about extending those to work better with CSS. 20:50:07 dbaron: Things like separating the background from the border form the content, etc. 20:50:22 dbaron: in the discussion for the box-shadow property, there's a lot of discussion about what sort of effects people want to shadow. 20:50:34 dbaron: And I think everyone has a different mental image about what is being shadowed. 20:51:02 dbaron: And I think that once authors see that box-shadows shadows X not Y, they'll want that choice. 20:51:15 TabAtkins_: BradK brought up that sort of idea in the last CSS ftf at TPAC. 20:51:31 so we would want to get at the content, the background, the padding, and the border (or perhaps several of the eight sections of the border) 20:51:41 shepazu: Agreed that calling out specific parts of the image would be useful, to be filtering on. 20:52:31 shepazu: I think you can get a transluscency effect right now by blurring something on top rather than below, like a reverse drop-shadow. Like seeing through transluscent glass. 20:52:57 ed: Trying to find the part in the Filters spec where we say we expect other specs to extend the set of keywords. 20:53:17 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/filters/publish/SVGFilter.html#FilterPrimitiveInAttribute 20:53:19 shepazu: The processing.js people have been doing some very cool things with applying SVG filters to html video, etc. 20:54:15 ed: Actually, I think the spec currently doesn't say that we allow the to be extended, but it does say that other specs need to define what the keywords mean. 20:54:27 ed: But I don't disagree with extending the keywords. 20:54:45 smfr: What are our next steps in this area? 20:54:54 ed: I can take an action to add that to the filters spec. 20:55:15 ed: I think we can start a wiki page for what CSS shorthand we want for filters, and what primitives we want to expose in that way. 20:55:31 smfr: I or David can contribute some thoughts on Moz's impl. 20:56:08 dbaron: We haven't extended it, we just have the CSS filter property that can be applied to any element. 20:56:18 ChrisL: So when you apply a filter, what is it applied to? 20:56:27 dbaron: The whole thing; the border/background/etc. 20:56:35 dbaron: I think it works like opacity and creates a new stacking context. 20:56:41 (but not sure about that) 20:56:56 shepazu: The processing.js people want to apply multiple filters to the same content. 20:57:01 shepazu: I guess they would be sequential. 20:57:21 smfr: Chainging filters together? 20:57:23 shepazu: yes. 20:57:28 s/Chainging/Chaining/ 20:57:52 We discussed a list of things you'd want to apply filters to at a recent F2F 20:57:58 shepazu: Are we talking about just one spec? Filters, and canned filters are part of that? Or two different specs? 20:58:17 smfr: Is there any precedent for an SVg spec to describe CSS properties that can apply to HTML? 20:58:22 ChrisL: Not specifically to html. 20:58:39 http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2009/11/25/resolutions_84 20:58:40 shepazu: We can talk about CSS properties, but frex none of the border properties apply to CSS at the moment. 20:58:54 smfr: My feeling is that we should have a new spec under public-fx for the combined filters. 20:59:02 ed: Makes sense. I'd like to be one of the editors. 20:59:07 smfr: I could be an editor too. 20:59:07 makes sense to me too 20:59:14 but I would not like to be an editor too :) 20:59:30 -smfr 20:59:31 ACTION eric: Start the spec for SVG filters in CSS. 20:59:31 Sorry, couldn't find user - eric 20:59:38 ACTION Eric: Start the spec for SVG filters in CSS. 20:59:38 Sorry, couldn't find user - Eric 20:59:57 ACTION Erik: Start the spec for SVG filters in CSS. 20:59:57 Created ACTION-13 - Start the spec for SVG filters in CSS. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-05-24]. 21:00:19 -David_Baron 21:00:20 zakim, list attendees 21:00:21 As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, David_Baron, ed, smfr, Tab_Atkins, ChrisL, anthony 21:00:22 -ed 21:00:30 rrsagent, make minutes 21:00:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/17-fx-minutes.html ChrisL 21:00:54 -ChrisL 21:01:12 Chair: Erik 21:01:13 -anthony 21:01:14 rrsagent, make minutes 21:01:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/17-fx-minutes.html ChrisL 21:02:13 Regrets: Dino 21:02:16 rrsagent, make minutes 21:02:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/17-fx-minutes.html ChrisL 21:02:18 -Tab_Atkins 21:02:20 -Shepazu 21:02:21 GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended 21:02:23 Attendees were Shepazu, David_Baron, ed, smfr, Tab_Atkins, ChrisL, anthony 21:10:59 shepazu: You need feeding? We have a vegetarian meal planned for two nights already, and another meal or two can be easily be made without meat for part of it. 21:11:59 TabAtkins: that would be lovely, though I don't really know what my evening plans are... there are probably some conference-related things going on 21:12:16 are you telling me that you guys actually plan your meals? 21:12:25 that's astounding... 21:12:30 kk. If you let us know reasonably ahead of time (by 4 or so) if you're skipping dinner we can make the meat ones that night. 21:12:40 And yes, we plan our meals weekly. How else would we know what to buy? 21:12:56 TabAtkins: and I'd like to socialize with y'all, but I also don't want to burden you 21:13:09 I can call ahead with my plans, yes 21:13:11 shepazu: We play videogames most nights. Our social life is not exactly stellar. 21:13:15 lol 21:13:27 If you have boardgames and can bring them, do so. 21:13:46 "That's social. Pathetic and sad, but social." -Breakfast Club 21:14:00 oh, yes, I have some good boardgame 21:14:01 s 21:14:18 have you played Small World or Dominion? 21:14:23 Nope. 21:14:27 yay! 21:14:32 I'll bring one of those 21:14:36 Honestly the only eurogame I've ever played was through the desert. 21:14:51 wow. 21:14:58 well, then I'll bring a couple 21:15:11 something short, and something more involved 21:15:15 kk 21:15:19 :D 21:15:22 thanks again 21:15:24 np 21:15:39 We have a largish house, so it's easy to put people up for a few nights. 22:06:11 smfr has left #fx