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07:05:02 <Steven> rrsagent, make logs world
07:05:23 <Steven> Meeting: W3C Model-based User Interfaces Workshop, day 2
07:05:26 <Steven> Chair: Dave Raggett
07:05:44 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/mbui/program.html
07:05:51 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
07:05:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/14-mbui-minutes.html Steven
07:06:39 <Steven> Topic: MBUI and MDA Frameworks, Giorgio Brajnik, Università di Udine
07:06:55 <Steven> [Is the UML appropriate for Interaction Design?]
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07:07:24 <Steven> Giorgio: Usability can be made better by providing tools that allow early evaluation
07:07:33 <Steven> ... you have to go into the details
07:07:48 <Steven> ... at the abstract level there are problems that cannot be caught
07:08:10 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
07:08:37 <Steven> Giorgio: There are several approaches to model-based development
07:08:57 <Steven> ... most miss one important aspect
07:09:18 <Steven> ... they focus on the main model
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07:09:41 <Steven> ... whis is not the right way to go when you want to focus on usability first
07:09:49 <Steven> ... state machines can help you here
07:10:58 <Steven> ... it is important to focus on details that affect usability
07:11:11 <Steven> ... at abstract and concrete levels
07:12:10 <Steven> ... one possible platform is wireframes, for debugging and user testing
07:12:30 <Steven> ... you can focus on accessibility
07:12:50 <Steven> ... such as testing without mouse access
07:13:29 <Steven> ... forcing you to show that you can navigate from the keyboard
07:13:43 <Steven> ... you could easily identify anti-patterns
07:14:03 <Steven> ... generate test scripts automatically
07:14:52 <Steven> ... analyse the interaction graph, prove reachability, and distance betwen states
07:15:11 <Steven> [case study]
07:16:15 <Steven> [Slide with state machine]
07:17:25 <Steven> [Domain model]
07:18:08 <Steven> [Wireframe prototype]
07:18:37 <Steven> [Interaction graph]
07:19:39 <Steven> Giorgio: The graph is complex, reflecting the complexity of the interface
07:20:48 <Steven> Jose: I diasagree that
07:20:57 <Steven> s/dias/dis/
07:21:09 <Steven> Jose: I disagree that this is helpful
07:21:38 <Steven> Giorgio: This allows you to test assumptions
07:21:53 <Steven> Jose: In the real world no
07:22:15 <Steven> Giorgio: It allows you to test for consistency
07:22:33 <Steven> [Usability problems]
07:24:23 <Steven> Giorgio: There is for instance an unnecessary action for the user to return from the error message to the login screen
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07:24:47 <Steven> ... potential usability problems like this can be extract4ed from the state graph
07:27:33 <Steven> Giorgio: State machines offer no expressivity limits
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07:27:52 <Steven> ... don't ask you to express things you don't want to
07:30:28 <Steven> Fabio: dynamic construction of interaction elements may be an expressivity limitation
07:30:53 <Steven> Giogio: You could activate tasks
07:31:14 <Steven> Fabio: You don''t know how many times it might be activated
07:31:47 <Steven> Topic: MBUI in relationship to ISO/IEC 24752 Universal Remote Console, Jochen Frey, DFKI
07:31:52 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
07:31:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/14-mbui-minutes.html Steven
07:32:13 <Steven> Present: See_day_1
07:33:35 <Steven> Jochen: The URC has been an ISO standard since 2008
07:36:03 <Steven> ... there is a pilot store of 'apps' already running
07:41:34 <Steven> ... openurc.org is the consortium for the urc
07:41:57 <Steven> Fabio: How do you connect the task model
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07:42:06 <Steven> Jochen: Done manually
07:42:20 <Steven> ... from task model to socket elements
07:42:37 <Steven> Fabio: In what language?
07:42:45 <Steven> Jochen: In the abstract description
07:43:07 <Steven> ... there is a task engine that plugs in
07:43:32 <Steven> ... the clients can be in any language, phones, PCs, java apps, c++
07:43:45 <Steven> ... the protocol is the important bit
07:45:13 <Steven> aaa: How does the user integrate descriptions from resource server, to make updates on the UI
07:45:23 <Steven> Jochen: This is still open
07:45:53 <Steven> aaa: I have seen some RDF descriptions from the server
07:46:17 <Steven> Jochen: The resource description uses RDF, but I am not an expert in this
07:46:32 <Steven> ... we are thinking about integrating semantics
07:47:34 <Steven> Topic: MOSKitt UIM,Javier, Muñoz
07:48:24 <Steven> s/r, /r /
07:48:32 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
07:48:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/14-mbui-minutes.html Steven
07:48:50 <Steven> s/,J/, J/
07:50:42 <Steven> Javier: MOSKitt is a set of modelling tools
07:52:04 <Steven> ... there is no standard UML, and we need that really
07:52:24 <Steven> ... so we have just chosen one
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07:58:08 <Steven> bbb: The model-based approach is for richer applications of modern applications
07:58:15 <Steven> ... richer interfaces
07:58:34 <Steven> ... not for simple login screens
07:59:00 <Steven> ... practitioners don't see why you need a model-based approach for a login screen
07:59:08 <Steven> ... look at facebook and similar
07:59:35 <Steven> Javier: We need to know how to model things, but for the new things there is no consensus yet
08:00:02 <Steven> ... we should have at least one standard language for the basic things
08:00:33 <Steven> bbb: We should take in the new requirements when thinking about standardisation
08:01:46 <Steven> Topic: Applicability discussion
08:02:14 <Steven> dsr: We have a number of areas of discussion (see the agenda)
08:02:35 <Steven> ... What criteria determine whether a model-based UI design framework is appropriate to a given application? What are the main scenarios and domains where MBUI is valuable? Provide counter examples where it isn't appropriate.
08:03:07 <Steven> Jose: The problem is to identify when the model based approach can be applied
08:03:43 <Steven> Javier: I think that modelling can be used in practice
08:04:10 <Steven> dsr: Are the counter examples?
08:04:28 <Steven> Fabio: MB approach is good for multiple devices
08:04:37 <Steven> s/Are the/Are there/
08:04:59 <Steven> Fabio: Not needed if you are only using a desktop system, except perhaps in safety critical systems
08:05:14 <Steven> Daniel: Is this the right question to ask?
08:05:25 <Steven> ... all methods are model-based in some sense
08:05:32 <Steven> ... even when just programming
08:05:42 <Steven> ... sometimes using low-level machinery
08:05:53 <Steven> ... but the programmer must have some kind of model
08:05:59 <Steven> dsr: So the model is implicit
08:06:05 <Steven> ... no reasoning about it
08:06:19 <Steven> ... is possible
08:06:30 <Steven> Daniel: So what level should we go to
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08:06:46 <Steven> Pablo: The question is which level is appropriate
08:07:35 <Steven> Daniel: We have to be more specific that just saying "model-based"
08:07:56 <Steven> Pablo: When environments change, you need a model
08:08:16 <Steven> Giorgio: It allows you to hide detail, and expose detail
08:08:46 <Steven> dsr: For Dynamic adaptation, having a runtime model is importnant
08:08:51 <Steven> s/nant/ant/
08:09:01 <Steven> dsr: Accessibility is an example of this
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08:09:27 <Steven> ... but going back to my question, are there examples that are not appropriate
08:09:34 <Steven> s/ate/ate?/
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08:10:19 <Steven> Jose: [Scribe missed]
08:10:31 <fpatern> models useful for accessibility, changing contexts, multi-device interfaces
08:10:38 <Steven> ... something about the difference between concrete and abstract specification
08:11:35 <Steven> ccc: How is the finalization of the interface reflected in the model
08:11:40 <Steven> Jose: Good question
08:12:16 <Steven> ccc: We need to address how you create a fabulous-looking website
08:12:43 <Steven> ddd: It is hard to reverse engineer when there is no task
08:13:01 <Steven> ... no related task in the task model
08:13:35 <Steven> ccc: Some approaches decouple both layers
08:13:38 <Steven> Daniel: Most do
08:14:12 <Steven> ccc: The final appearance is really important
08:14:20 <Steven> Daniel: Most approaches allow for that, I am sure
08:14:37 <Steven> ... since you can generate arbitrary style markup
08:14:53 <Steven> ... I understand that many designers don't know how to use it
08:14:59 <Steven> ... but look at css Zen Garden
08:15:07 <Steven> ... it is possible
08:15:15 <Steven> ccc: That is a question of best practices
08:15:49 <Steven> Daniel: I mean that most approaches can decouple task process from style
08:16:01 <Steven> ... from look and feel
08:16:17 <Steven> ... some good designers are good at look and feel and interaction design
08:16:28 <Steven> ... but you can use different people
08:17:00 <Steven> Daniel: Artistic designs are examples of where you don't need task designs, where there is no task per se
08:17:51 <Steven> ddd: A real example is expression plaet (?)
08:17:58 <Steven> s/plaet/planet/
08:18:20 <Steven> Giorhio: Another question: how usable are the tools?
08:18:44 <Steven> Steven: You mean they haven't applied their own tools to their own tools.
08:18:48 <Steven> s/./?/
08:19:01 <Steven> ... :-)
08:19:08 <Steven> [Coffee break, 20 mins]
08:19:21 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
08:19:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/14-mbui-minutes.html Steven
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09:23:44 <Steven> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/vandf/2002.5-pixelpoint.html "Sooner or later it will get home to web designers not to design in pixels anymore, because each page will fit on a postage stamp if they do. "
09:24:31 <Steven> "But at what point will they realise they shouldn't be designing their sites with fixed sizes at all, pixels or points, but using percentages, and letting the user decide on the base size, so that users can increase the base size to make the fonts larger and therefore more readable? Probably when their own sight starts to fade, around retirement age I suppose. "
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09:50:26 <MichaelN> :-)
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11:35:24 <kaz> scribenick: kaz
11:35:32 <kaz> Q&A:
11:35:48 <kaz> * modeling is needed but difficult
11:37:27 <kaz> * which is easier, programming itself or modeling?
11:38:35 <kaz> * usability testing?
11:39:09 <kaz> - how to structure usability testing?
11:40:34 <kaz> - different level of analysis could be useful to usability testing as well
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11:42:07 <kaz> topic: @@@ - Fabio Paternò
11:42:44 <kaz> s/@@@/wrapping up discussion/
11:43:27 <kaz> (Fabio will take note online)
13:55:21 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:55:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/14-mbui-minutes.html kaz