14:49:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
14:49:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/13-egov-irc
14:49:25 <sandro> zakim, this will be egov
14:49:33 <sandro> rrsagent, make log public
14:49:41 <sandro> zakim, ping
14:52:26 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #egov
14:52:31 <sandro> zakim, this will be geov
14:52:31 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, sandro
14:52:35 <sandro> zakim, this will be egov
14:52:35 <Zakim> ok, sandro; I see T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM scheduled to start 52 minutes ago
14:53:14 <kate_geyer> kate_geyer has joined #egov
14:53:39 <sandro> 'morning, Kate.
14:53:47 <fadi> fadi has joined #egov
14:54:00 <kate_geyer> Good Morning Sandro!
14:54:05 <sandro> fadi, I did the rrsagent and zakim setup stuff already.
14:54:19 <fadi> snadro, thanks
14:54:36 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM has now started
14:54:43 <Zakim> + +1.617.619.aaaa
14:58:05 <cygri_> cygri_ has joined #egov
14:59:05 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:59:08 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
14:59:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.617.619.aaaa, Sandro
14:59:29 <sandro> zakim, aaaa is kate_geyer 
14:59:29 <Zakim> +kate_geyer; got it
15:00:20 <jonphipps> jonphipps has joined #egov
15:00:46 <Zakim> + +03539149aabb
15:01:03 <cygri> zakim, aabb is me
15:01:03 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:01:07 <Zakim> + +1.202.690.aacc
15:01:09 <cygri> zakim, fadi is with me
15:01:09 <Zakim> +fadi; got it
15:01:55 <george> george has joined #egov
15:01:56 <fadi> fadi has joined #egov
15:02:02 <Zakim> -Sandro
15:02:24 <cygri> zakim, who is here?
15:02:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see kate_geyer, cygri, +1.202.690.aacc
15:02:25 <Zakim> cygri has cygri, fadi
15:02:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see fadi, george, jonphipps, cygri, kate_geyer, Zakim, RRSAgent, martin, Daniel_Bennett, ww, edsu, sandro, trackbot
15:02:28 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:02:46 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see kate_geyer, cygri, +1.202.690.aacc, Sandro
15:02:48 <Zakim> cygri has cygri, fadi
15:03:05 <george> that's george sandro
15:03:15 <sandro> zakim, aacc is george 
15:03:15 <Zakim> +george; got it
15:03:27 <george> ok - sorry for still being a zakim noob
15:04:36 <Zakim> + +1.607.785.aadd
15:05:16 <sandro> zakim, aadd is jonphipps 
15:05:16 <Zakim> +jonphipps; got it
15:05:19 <Zakim> +??P8
15:06:08 <sandro> zakim, P8 is Vassilios
15:06:08 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not recognize a party named 'P8'
15:06:13 <sandro> zakim, ??P8 is Vassilios
15:06:13 <Zakim> +Vassilios; got it
15:06:34 <vassilios> vassilios has joined #egov
15:06:46 <vassilios> Hi Vassilios Peristeras 
15:06:53 <vassilios> Currently muted
15:07:35 <cygri> zakim, who is here?
15:07:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see kate_geyer, cygri, george, Sandro, jonphipps (muted), Vassilios
15:07:37 <Zakim> cygri has cygri, fadi
15:07:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see vassilios, fadi, george, jonphipps, cygri, kate_geyer, Zakim, RRSAgent, martin, Daniel_Bennett, ww, edsu, sandro, trackbot
15:08:27 <fadi> chair:cygri
15:08:32 <fadi> scribe:fadi
15:08:33 <Daniel_Bennett_> Daniel_Bennett_ has joined #egov
15:08:36 <cygri> agenda: http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/2010-05-13
15:08:52 <fadi> topic: Admin
15:09:03 <fadi> cygri: scribe for next meeting?
15:09:45 <fadi> kate_geyer: I can do it
15:09:50 <Zakim> +[CTIC]
15:10:01 <Zakim> + +1.202.449.aaee
15:10:08 <martin> zakim, CTI is martin
15:10:08 <Zakim> sorry, martin, I do not recognize a party named 'CTI'
15:10:10 <sandro> zakim, ctic is temporarily martin
15:10:10 <Zakim> +martin; got it
15:10:19 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:10:23 <martin> Zakim, [CT is martin
15:10:23 <Zakim> sorry, martin, I do not recognize a party named '[CT'
15:10:31 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (37%)
15:10:51 <martin> Zakim, [CTIC] is martin
15:10:51 <Zakim> sorry, martin, I do not recognize a party named '[CTIC]'
15:11:08 <Daniel_Bennett_> aaee is Daniel Bennet and on mute only
15:11:09 <fadi> cygri: we have an issue tracker now
15:11:16 <Daniel_Bennett_> Bennett
15:11:27 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Main_Page
15:11:43 <li> li has joined #egov
15:11:53 <fadi> sandro: the link to the issue tracker can be found on http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Main_Page
15:12:22 <fadi> sandor: the issue tracker is for all egov Ig so we should label dcat issues
15:12:25 <sandro> action-95?
15:12:25 <trackbot> ACTION-95 -- Sandro Hawke to move IG pages to mediawiki -- due 2010-02-10 -- OPEN
15:12:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/track/actions/95
15:13:09 <fadi> sandro: follow the syntax direction as in http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/track/actions/95
15:13:54 <fadi> sandro: include issue id when exchanging related emails
15:14:02 <fadi> ... on the mailing list
15:14:04 <sandro> sandro: try to use syntax like "ISSUE-nnnn" in your e-mail so it gets indexed.
15:14:21 <sandro> topic: Name and Namespace
15:14:39 <cygri> http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat#
15:14:43 <fadi> cygri: what namespace to use for dcat?
15:15:02 <fadi> cygri: the current namespace is http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat#
15:15:36 <fadi> ... would it be possible to put it under W3C 
15:15:42 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/ns/dcat   
15:15:47 <fadi> cygri: is that possible sandro?
15:15:54 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2010/dcat
15:15:55 <fadi> sandro: yes
15:16:01 <fadi> ... we have three options
15:16:12 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2010/05/dcat
15:16:16 <fadi> ... http://www.w3.org/ns/dcat
15:16:31 <fadi> ... or http://www.w3.org/2010/dcat
15:16:41 <fadi> ... or http://www.w3.org/2010/05/dcat
15:16:44 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/ns/data-catalog
15:16:55 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/ns/gov-data-catalog
15:17:10 <fadi> cygri: would we be able to host files do redirect?
15:17:43 <fadi> sandro: not sure if we can delegate, but basically you can ask me to do so
15:18:29 <george> yes - w3 would be great
15:18:30 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:18:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see kate_geyer, cygri, george, Sandro, jonphipps (muted), Vassilios, martin, +1.202.449.aaee
15:18:31 <fadi> cygri: opinions regarding the importance of namespace (deri.ie, w3c.org...)?
15:18:32 <Zakim> cygri has cygri, fadi
15:18:51 <Daniel_Bennett_> aaee is Daniel Bennett
15:18:53 <jonphipps> I think it's important for legitimacy
15:18:59 <fadi> martin: prefer W3C namespace
15:19:04 <jonphipps> +1 for w3 space
15:20:04 <fadi> cygri: personally I prefer the ns one out of the three available options
15:20:42 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use http://www.w3.org/ns/dcat as namespace for this vocabulary
15:21:03 <martin> +1 (shorter option)
15:21:07 <cygri> +1
15:21:09 <fadi> +1
15:21:10 <jonphipps> +1
15:21:15 <vassilios> +1
15:21:15 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll use http://www.w3.org/ns/(whatever) as namespace for this vocabulary
15:21:15 <kate_geyer> +1
15:21:24 <jonphipps> and I like the proposed ns
15:21:28 <fadi> cygri: we will discuss the dcat name next
15:21:33 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll use http://www.w3.org/ns/(whatever) as namespace for this vocabulary
15:21:34 <sandro> +1
15:22:18 <fadi> cygri: I will change the namespace of the vocabulary we have at deri
15:22:25 <fadi> ... but keep it there for now
15:23:26 <fadi> ... mainly for convenience while editing the schema
15:23:45 <fadi> ... as we already have a handy editor in place at vocab.deri.ie
15:24:15 <fadi> ... once things are more stable we will move it to the w3c.org
15:24:37 <fadi> sandro: I can easily keep copying what's on deri site to the w3c
15:24:46 <cygri> http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat
15:25:23 <fadi> cygri: I changed the namespace at http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat
15:25:31 <fadi> to the wec.org one
15:25:51 <cygri> http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat.rdf
15:25:59 <fadi> cygri: is the RDF version sufficient for now?
15:26:29 <cygri> dcat
15:26:33 <fadi> cygri: dcat name capitalization?
15:26:38 <cygri> "Data Catalog Vocabulary"
15:26:44 <fadi> ... we used to use the lowercase version
15:26:55 <fadi> ... but no strong reason for that
15:27:00 <fadi> ... any opinions?
15:27:04 <sandro> +1 dcat Data  Catalog Vocabulary    (but others might be fine too)
15:27:14 <george> +1 sandro
15:27:15 <martin> +1 dcat "Data Catalog Vocabulary"
15:27:24 <kate_geyer> +1 dcat "Data Catalog Vocabulary"
15:27:27 <jonphipps> +1 sandro
15:27:40 <fadi> cygri: dcat stands for "Data Catalog Vocabulary"
15:27:53 <sandro> PROPOSED: This is The dcat Data Catalog Vocabulary
15:28:01 <sandro> +1
15:28:05 <george> +1
15:28:06 <cygri> +1!
15:28:09 <martin> +1
15:28:10 <fadi> +1
15:28:11 <kate_geyer> +1
15:28:15 <jonphipps> +1
15:28:19 <sandro> RESOLVED:  This is The dcat Data Catalog Vocabulary
15:28:38 <fadi> topic: usecases and requirements
15:28:56 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
15:29:26 <fadi> cygri: on the wiki we have currently about 4 usecases and 10 requirements
15:30:13 <fadi> ... catalog federation has got some interest
15:30:23 <fadi> ... same for distributed publishing
15:30:35 <fadi> ... more than the other two
15:30:38 <sandro> q+
15:30:59 <fadi> ... which of these scenarios are more important?
15:31:51 <fadi> sandro: confused about the difference between federation and distributed publishing
15:32:02 <fadi> ... both are about aggregation
15:32:27 <fadi> ... if data.gov was not official, then both cases will be the same
15:33:03 <fadi> cygri: in federation the assumption is that the federated catalog is an aggregation of other catalogs
15:33:16 <fadi> ... while in UC4 the catalog is aggregation of datasets
15:34:12 <fadi> cygri: setting up a data catalog requires considerable effort
15:34:33 <fadi> ... distributed publishing makes it possible to publish the data just by listing it online
15:34:46 <fadi> ... without going the whole way of having a catalog
15:35:00 <fadi> sandro: we need to understand the difference better
15:35:22 <fadi> ... we might go on now and try to refine them later
15:35:52 <fadi> cygri: maybe renaming/expanding usecases can help clarifying difference
15:36:15 <fadi> sandro: not sure whether we need to change the names now
15:36:38 <fadi> cygri: we will come back to it later
15:37:40 <fadi> cygri: does anyone see that one of usecases is interested?
15:37:48 <fadi> kate_geyer: UC2
15:38:33 <fadi> ... mapping our catalog to dcat seams an implementation of UC2
15:38:55 <george> UC 1-2-3-4 are all good
15:39:03 <martin> I find interesting all of 4 UC, but specially UC1 and UC2
15:39:04 <fadi> ... we might have a combination of federation and distributing oublishing
15:40:06 <fadi> cygri: in reality it will always be some combination of aggregation of datasets from both catalogs and 
15:40:21 <fadi> ... other websites that publish individual datasets
15:40:45 <george> i'm actually in another meeting :)
15:41:02 <sandro> pondering the term "downstream reuse" 
15:41:05 <fadi> martin: especially UC1, UC2 are interesting for us
15:42:10 <fadi> cygri: UC3 looks the least interesting while UC4 need some more clarification
15:42:26 <fadi> cygri: any input regarding requirements?
15:43:11 <fadi> ... any missing one?
15:43:13 <sandro> UC4 == dataset maintainer publishes catalog record;   UC1 == Enabling Catalogs without action from dataset maintainers 
15:43:40 <martin> I would add "Standard queries on metadata" (UC1, UC2,UC3)
15:43:55 <fadi> martin: I would add "having standard queries"
15:44:28 <fadi> martin: like SPARQL, XQuery...
15:44:59 <fadi> cygri: you mean "it should be possible to query the data using SPARQL, XQuery..." ?
15:45:05 <fadi> martin: yes
15:45:18 <Daniel_Bennett_> then people could create a list of common queries for use and auditing purposes
15:45:25 <martin> I will update the wiki
15:45:49 <sandro> action: martin to add requirement about querying using standard mechanism
15:45:49 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - martin
15:46:18 <sandro> action: mlvarez to add requirement about querying using standard mechanism
15:46:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-106 - Add requirement about querying using standard mechanism [on Martín Álvarez - due 2010-05-20].
15:46:52 <sandro> action: Martín to (just testing)
15:46:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-107 - (just testing) [on Martín Álvarez - due 2010-05-20].
15:47:01 <sandro> drop action-107
15:47:07 <sandro> action-107 closed
15:47:07 <trackbot> ACTION-107 (just testing) closed
15:47:12 <fadi> cygri: next steps. we need to hear more from other group members
15:47:39 <fadi> ... regarding requirement I got some private responses.
15:47:56 <fadi> ... how to proceed? contacting potential users of the schema?
15:48:39 <fadi> .... to make sure that thing that catalog publishers and consumers are covered
15:49:11 <fadi> sandro: I think we can go on publishing working draft
15:49:23 <fadi> ... then ask for approval
15:50:53 <fadi> ... may be we send to the mailing list for more comments
15:51:05 <Daniel_Bennett_> ping?
15:51:16 <sandro> hi Daniel_Bennett_ 
15:51:27 <fadi> ... I suggest renumbering them, put UC1 next to UC4
15:51:31 <fadi> ... as they are related
15:51:47 <Daniel_Bennett_> hi sandro. just checking to see if i was still connected to IRC.
15:51:55 <fadi> cygri: I will try to reorder usecases and clarify them, especially UC1, UC4
15:51:58 <sandro> you are, Daniel_Bennett_  :)
15:52:51 <fadi> cygri: I think we give people more time to provide some feedback. If we need more feedback, I think we go for some other options
15:53:06 <fadi> ... maybe some of the group chairs can help
15:53:32 <fadi> sandro: it is fine to contact potential users directly
15:54:00 <fadi> cygri: I will email people from RPI and Sunlight Labs regarding usecases and requirements
15:54:14 <george> ckan?
15:54:18 <fadi> sandro: we need also to contact people from CKAN
15:54:58 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/Vocabulary_Reference
15:55:09 <fadi> cygri: we have migrated some of the reference materials we have to
15:55:17 <fadi> http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/Vocabulary_Reference
15:55:41 <fadi> ... it is currently a work-in-progress and basically it is an initail list
15:55:57 <fadi> cygri: of classes and properties
15:56:20 <fadi> ... feel free to contribute to the wiki page 
15:57:02 <fadi> ... I hope we can start reviewing this in 2-3 weeks
15:57:14 <fadi> cygri: do we need to have a meeting next week?
15:57:38 <fadi> ... I would suggest we have a short one particularly to discuss usecases and requirements
15:58:30 <fadi> sandro: what about the discussion regarding vocabulary specific details?
15:58:37 <fadi> ... do we have to conduct it now?
15:59:20 <fadi> cygri: I do not think we can get ready to start discussing them  next meeting
15:59:54 <fadi> ... the initial vocabulary reference still needs a lot of work
16:00:12 <fadi> ... to full the details, then we can proceed to more specific details
16:00:59 <george> thanks cygri, sandro and fadi!
16:01:01 <fadi> cygri: we hopefully finish the usecases discussion next week then we proceed to the vocabulary design
16:01:03 <kate_geyer> thanks!
16:01:10 <Zakim> -kate_geyer
16:01:12 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:01:13 <vassilios> thanks and bye
16:01:17 <cygri> thanks fadi for scribing!
16:01:17 <Zakim> -george
16:01:17 <jonphipps> Thanks!
16:01:18 <Zakim> -martin
16:01:23 <Zakim> -cygri
16:01:24 <martin> martin has left #egov
16:01:24 <Zakim> -jonphipps
16:01:27 <Zakim> -Vassilios
16:01:32 <Zakim> - +1.202.449.aaee
16:01:33 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV(LD TECH)10:00AM has ended
16:01:34 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.619.aaaa, Sandro, kate_geyer, +03539149aabb, cygri, +1.202.690.aacc, fadi, george, +1.607.785.aadd, jonphipps, Vassilios, +1.202.449.aaee, martin
16:02:33 <fadi> sandro, how to proceed for generating the minutes?
16:05:05 <cygri> sandro, i'm looking at http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/track/products, shouldn't there be a product for dcat now?
16:05:39 <sandro> yes, weird.
16:05:43 <sandro> lets see.
16:06:25 <sandro> Okay, I added it again.  Do you see it, when you refresh?
16:06:54 <Daniel_Bennett> Daniel_Bennett has joined #egov
16:07:23 <cygri> sandro i see it now. thanks!
16:07:50 <sandro> fadi, look at http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Chatlog_2010-05-13_Data_Catalog_Vocabulary        See the "preview nicely formatted version" link?   Try it.     
16:08:35 <fadi> sandro, I got this error while previewing 
16:08:37 <fadi> Scribe problem: the name 'kate_geyer' does not match any of the 84 active names.
16:09:04 <sandro> RIght, so go back and edit http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Chatlog_2010-05-13_Data_Catalog_Vocabulary to add a line,   "Guest: Kate Geyer"
16:10:15 <Daniel_Bennett_> Daniel_Bennett_ has joined #egov
16:10:56 <sandro> cygri, I put a minimal http://www.w3.org/ns/dcat in place for now.    I can't just copy the deri .html page because it has various deri branding, and links to styles and javascript.
16:11:20 <cygri> sandro, yes that's why i was proposing to just copy the RDF for now
16:11:51 <sandro> cygri, shall I copy the RDF?     is it in a good state?
16:12:11 <cygri> it's outdated but reasonable
16:12:49 <cygri> well give me a minute to review it
16:13:05 <sandro> um, should i global search and replace "http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat" with "http://www.w3.org/ns/dcat" to?      [sure, waiting]
16:19:05 <fadi> sandro, the preview looks fine now, should I save?
16:20:30 <Daniel_Bennett_> Daniel_Bennett_ has joined #egov
16:20:50 <cygri> sandro, i tried to remove the remaining vocab.deri.ie references from the file but am hitting a bug in neologism (the hosting software). have manually fixed up the file and sent it via email
16:21:11 <cygri> i'll get the bug sorted out so that you can wget future versions directly
16:32:54 <sandro> yes, fadi, go ahead and save.
16:34:27 <sandro> cygri, what you mailed me still says  <rdfs:Class rdf:about="http://vocab.deri.ie/dcat#CatalogRecord">  etc.   shall I do the search/replace?
16:35:14 <cygri> damn
16:35:27 <cygri> yes please do the search/replace
16:35:52 <fadi> sandro, I think it is ready now  I will send an email in a minute
16:35:55 <fadi> thanks sandro
16:36:33 <cygri> there's some stupid caching bug in neologism
16:36:39 <sandro> ah.
16:36:54 <cygri> curl sees something different from what i see in the browser
16:37:24 <cygri> sorry about that
16:37:42 <sandro> fadi, I updated http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/Data_Catalog_Vocabulary/2010-05-13 with a link to the minutes.
16:41:29 <Daniel_Bennett> Daniel_Bennett has joined #egov
16:44:28 <cygri> i've tweaked the uc&r page, moved UC4 up to UC2, changed the headlines, and added another sentence to the distrib publishing use case to clarify the difference
16:45:23 <sandro> was it fun to rename the UCs in the Reqiirements section?    that's always a fun search/replace problem  2->3 3->4 4->2   :-)
16:46:06 <sandro> typo "Federating serval data"
16:47:10 <cygri> fixed. thanks sandro
16:47:33 <sandro> How about "Federated and Third-Party Data Catalogs" for UC1 ?            I think "central" is kind of misleading.
16:48:05 <cygri> good point
16:49:12 <sandro> description of UC2 looks great.
16:50:41 <cygri> sandro: "Creating a federated catalog from multiple data catalogs" for UC1?
16:52:03 <sandro> That's pretty good.   My hesitation is that "federated" sounds like something a government would do, but (as the text makes clear) it might be an NGO like Sunlight.      Still, that's probably fine.
16:52:13 <cygri> "aggregated"?
16:53:50 <sandro> (thinking)
16:54:34 <sandro> collected, downstream, ....
16:54:52 <sandro> "Creating a catalog from other data catalogs" ?
16:59:27 <cygri> "Creating a combined catalog from multiple other data catalogs"?
17:01:09 <sandro> Sure.      I was thinking there's also the case here where someone might make a catalog of all the datasets around the world about, maybe, education.   So it's not just aggregating but filtering.   The word "combined" still fits but not as well.    Still, good enough!!
17:07:37 <cygri> yup, i guess the "combined catalog" use case together with the "query" use case give us the filtered catalog. i tweaked all four use case names
17:07:42 <cygri> this should do for now
17:07:55 <cygri> UC2 is now: "Including metadata published directly on agency web sites into catalogs"
17:08:11 <cygri> quite a mouthful, but should make the difference clear
17:08:13 <cygri> thanks sandro
17:08:52 <cygri_> cygri_ has joined #egov
17:13:38 <sandro> yes, the titles are quite clear now.     very good.
17:13:54 <Daniel_Bennett_> Daniel_Bennett_ has joined #egov
17:15:04 <sandro> on uc3, does that include what Martin was saying -- Portable and advanced queries of catalog records     ?
17:16:56 <sandro> I'm not sure where the line of use case vs requirement is there.  Maybe the use case is more like:    Applications which query catalog records from many catalogs   ?
17:17:49 <sandro> where 3 and 4 different in that in 3 the apps just use the catalog records and in 4 they use the datasets, too ?
17:34:55 <Daniel_Bennett_> Daniel_Bennett_ has joined #egov
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