20:01:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
20:01:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-webfonts-irc
20:01:46 <erik> erik has joined #webfonts
20:01:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:01:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
20:01:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
20:01:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
20:01:51 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
20:01:51 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2010
20:01:54 <ChrisL> Chair: Vlad
20:01:59 <ChrisL> Scribe: Chris
20:02:03 <erik> Hi everybody.
20:02:07 <ChrisL> ScribeNick: ChrisL
20:02:11 <ChrisL> hi erik
20:02:35 <ChrisL> zakim, code?
20:02:35 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I don't know what conference this is
20:02:44 <ChrisL> zakim, this is font
20:02:44 <Zakim> ok, ChrisL; that matches IA_Fonts()4:00PM
20:02:47 <cslye> cslye has joined #webfonts
20:02:48 <ChrisL> zakim, code?
20:02:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 3668 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL
20:03:04 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:03:11 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
20:03:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], +1.443.895.aaaa, +0845397aabb, +1.781.970.aacc, [Microsoft.a], ??P6, +1.408.536.aadd, +45.04.2.aaee, ChrisL
20:03:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see cslye, Zakim, erik, RRSAgent, jfkthame, Vlad, jdaggett, tal, ChrisL, tabatkins, trackbot
20:03:36 <Zakim> -ChrisL
20:04:05 <erik> I muted, it might have been me. sorry.
20:04:12 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:04:33 <ChrisL> is the noise better?
20:04:41 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #webfonts
20:04:45 <Zakim> +??P10
20:05:50 <ChrisL> Topic: WOFF walkthrough
20:05:50 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2010/SUBM-WOFF-20100408/
20:06:01 <Zakim> + +1.212.381.aaff
20:06:55 <ChrisL> JK: Do we do the Abstract as well?
20:06:58 <ChrisL> CL: Yup
20:07:49 <ChrisL> CL: Is the invertibility reuirement listed in the spec?
20:07:58 <ChrisL> JK: Checking ....
20:08:06 <sylvaing> 'lossless' doesn't occur again in the document
20:08:06 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:08:13 <ChrisL> issue: invertibility needs to be a conformance requirement
20:08:13 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1 - Invertibility needs to be a conformance requirement ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/issues/1/edit .
20:08:34 <Zakim> - +45.04.2.aaee
20:08:59 <ChrisL> CL: also, "Such metadata does not affect the rendering of the font in any way" is a requirement
20:09:10 <ChrisL> JK: Restated in section 6
20:09:21 <ChrisL> zakim, mute +45
20:09:21 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not know which phone connection belongs to +45
20:09:23 <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy?
20:09:34 <Zakim> jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.970.aacc (54%), ??P10 (13%), ChrisL (5%), [IPcaller] (14%)
20:10:56 <ChrisL> SM: Please note in the abstract that private block does not affect rendering either
20:11:25 <ChrisL> zakim, who is speaking?
20:11:37 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (7%), +1.781.970.aacc (25%), ??P10 (68%)
20:11:48 <Zakim> + +45.04.2.aagg
20:12:03 <ChrisL> AT: Yes, add that to the abstract
20:12:54 <ChrisL> JK: Third sentence is useful or not?
20:13:51 <ChrisL> AT: How do we define replacing? May well replace TT/OT on the Web
20:14:27 <ChrisL> SM: WOFF is not really a format
20:15:03 <ChrisL> AT: Analogy between multimedia formats and font formats, like codecs
20:15:17 <ChrisL> ... WOFF is a container
20:16:24 <ChrisL> "This document specifies WOFF, a container for sfnt type fonts such as OpenType"
20:16:48 <ChrisL> AT: that is better
20:17:01 <cslye> Nice clarification, I think.
20:17:03 <erik> erik has joined #webfonts
20:17:07 <ChrisL> (general agreement, no objections)
20:17:08 <sylvaing> +1
20:17:18 <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy?
20:17:22 <ChrisL> JK: Fine by me
20:17:28 <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
20:17:29 <Zakim> jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +0845397aabb (4%), +1.781.970.aacc (47%), [Microsoft.a] (19%), +45.04.2.aagg (13%), ??P10 (18%)
20:17:39 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +0845397aabb (94%), +1.781.970.aacc (14%), [Microsoft.a] (9%), +45.04.2.aagg (29%), ??P10 (35%)
20:17:45 <ChrisL> Topic: Introduction
20:18:36 <ChrisL> VK: Intro explains what sfnt is and is clearer on container
20:19:16 <jdaggett> ChrisL: VK?  VL perhaps?
20:19:33 <ChrisL> maybe change "directly based on the" to "a container for"
20:19:52 <ChrisL> zakim, who is noisy?
20:20:03 <Zakim> ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.970.aacc (71%), +45.04.2.aagg (17%), ??P10 (10%)
20:20:25 <ChrisL> CS: Is the compression optional?
20:20:54 <ChrisL> VK: Need to be clear on what the user agent is to do
20:22:09 <ChrisL> CL; a converter that outputs all uncompressed is conformant 9if ill advised) but a UA that fails to decompress is not conformant
20:23:03 <ChrisL> CS: Can we only talk about the format?
20:23:19 <ChrisL> CL: No, need conformance for UA as well
20:23:56 <ChrisL> AT: So if some data can be compressed, a user agent MUST (rfc2119( be able to decompress it
20:24:09 <ChrisL> s/9(/9)
20:24:32 <ChrisL> VK: So a UA must decompress compressed data
20:24:48 <ChrisL> .. can recommend to authors too
20:25:28 <cslye> A UA must be prepared for WOFF data to be either compressed or uncompressed?
20:26:37 <ChrisL> issue: add conformance for uas and generators re compression
20:26:38 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2 - Add conformance for uas and generators re compression ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/issues/2/edit .
20:26:58 <ChrisL> CL: Its implied but not explicit
20:27:37 <ChrisL> AT: Table directory section interchanges WOFF file and WOFF font. Needs to be consistent.
20:27:54 <ChrisL> ... also distinguish between sfnt fonts and the WOFF made from it
20:28:21 <ChrisL> s/VK/VL/g
20:29:15 <ChrisL> AT: for the original sfnt fonrt, say 'font' that makes it clearer
20:29:27 <ChrisL> ... distinguish between font and WOFF file
20:29:34 <ChrisL> VL: Agreed
20:30:19 <ChrisL> AT: So replace WOFF font by WOFF file throughout
20:30:31 <ChrisL> JK: No problem
20:30:53 <ChrisL> ACTION: Jonathan to change WOFF font to WOFF file throughout
20:30:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Change WOFF font to WOFF file throughout [on Jonathan Kew - due 2010-05-19].
20:31:28 <ChrisL> AT: and change "compressed" to "may be compressed"
20:31:43 <ChrisL> Topic: Overall File Structure
20:32:39 <ChrisL> CL: Does collection imply table ordering is maintained?
20:32:45 <ChrisL> JD: Specified later
20:33:44 <ChrisL> VL: Easier for implementors and users to make it look similar to OFF spec. Data types first then file structure then specific chapters on each part
20:33:55 <ChrisL> ... easier for people familiar with OT and OFF
20:34:14 <ChrisL> JD: Section 2 has data types defined
20:34:57 <ChrisL> VL: Maybe a more elaborate verbal descriotion before the header details etc
20:35:14 <ChrisL> AT: Don't folow, seems to follow OT pretty much
20:35:24 <ChrisL> s/low/llow
20:35:51 <ChrisL> AT: To me, seems quite logical from a tree approach
20:36:24 <ChrisL> VL: OK its fine, but WOFF header itself defines fields not described but defined elsewhere. Improve on forward referencing
20:37:08 <ChrisL> CL: Another way is to link keywords to their definitions
20:37:24 <ChrisL> VL: prefer to see every field in the header described right there
20:37:47 <ChrisL> JK: What further description would you want? e.g. for offset
20:38:28 <ChrisL> SG: So this is moving the content around, not changing it. Can we review the content first?
20:38:41 <ChrisL> VL: Listed in the agenda, a few changes of layout
20:38:48 <erik> moving on +1
20:38:57 <jdaggett> moving on +1
20:39:10 <ChrisL> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010May/0045.html
20:39:40 <ChrisL> SG: So the questions of sequencing are orthagonal to the actual content
20:40:21 <ChrisL> AT: Happy to review Vlad's proposals
20:40:48 <ChrisL> Topic: WOFF Header
20:41:34 <ChrisL> SM: Table data order can be swapped
20:41:45 <ChrisL> .. sequence of chunks is not enforced
20:41:57 <ChrisL> AT: Table directory specifies this
20:42:11 <ChrisL> ... allows tables to be ordered in different ways
20:42:57 <ChrisL> VL: Padding needs to be specified, as well as allowed order
20:43:06 <ChrisL> AT: SFNT allows padding
20:43:32 <ChrisL> JK: Blocks are mandatory, metadat must be after the sfnt and so on
20:43:41 <ChrisL> s/dat/data
20:44:06 <ChrisL> AT: "followed by" could be strengthened: "immediately followed by"
20:44:10 <Zakim> - +1.212.381.aaff
20:44:39 <ChrisL> CL; Or add "in that order" to the end of the sentence
20:45:25 <ChrisL> AT: Third para of section 2 could be strengthened
20:46:27 <ChrisL> JK: Happy to rephrase like that. No particular reason to enforce it, but no benefit to shuffling around either
20:46:42 <ChrisL> AT: Want to exclude black hole padding.
20:47:08 <ChrisL> action: Jonathan reword "The main body" per these minutes in section 2
20:47:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Reword "The main body" per these minutes in section 2 [on Jonathan Kew - due 2010-05-19].
20:47:52 <ChrisL> JK: Does say balck holes in severl places, eg "up to three bytes" so padding to longword boundaries only
20:48:23 <ChrisL> JD: Good to review for black holes and put something in the intro to that effect
20:48:41 <ChrisL> AT: Unadressed blocks are not permitted except for longword padding
20:49:06 <ChrisL> ... helps explain how the structure works
20:49:32 <ChrisL> ... implementers may not be the same folk who do font rasterisation. web server folks
20:49:48 <ChrisL> VL: Lack of holes should be reflected in conformance
20:50:10 <Vlad> That was Sergey
20:50:33 <ChrisL> CL: Conformance on the WOFF file itself, orthogonal to UA conformance
20:50:49 <ChrisL> s/VL: Lack/SM: Lack/
20:51:30 <ChrisL> SM: Data structure should be enforced, metadata out of place should mean the font is rejected
20:51:37 <ChrisL> ... else mno UA consistency
20:51:52 <ChrisL> SG: UAs need to all accept and reject the same things
20:52:30 <ChrisL> AT: As its a container format, strengthening relationship wth sfnt. Waht to do with invalid sfnt?
20:52:41 <ChrisL> SM: Talking of invalid WOFF files only
20:53:05 <ChrisL> ... can enforce from the beginning
20:53:41 <ChrisL> Topic: WOFF Header really this time
20:54:33 <ChrisL> SM: Flavor can be either TT or OT but later says it can be something else
20:55:14 <ChrisL> CL: Yes, in the table its 'for example'
20:55:25 <ChrisL> AT: TT and OT are the most typiczal
20:55:58 <ChrisL> Cl: AAT? Graphite?
20:56:35 <jdaggett> ChrisL: those formats are defined by tables, not by the format tag
20:56:46 <ChrisL> AT: glyph imaging, OTTO, or line layout streams wchhis is OT layout, TT, SIL Graphite or others
20:57:16 <ChrisL> ... so flavor is really the glyph flavor
20:57:27 <ChrisL> ... line layout flavor is not specified in the header
20:57:47 <ChrisL> CL: So does it need two fields?
20:57:50 <ChrisL> AT: No
20:58:23 <ChrisL> ... may have multiple tables in the font, so its up to the layout engine what it uses
20:58:39 <ChrisL> JD: no need to over specify, defer to the OT and OFF specs
20:59:19 <ChrisL> AT: So remove excess wording from tables into the prose
21:01:00 <cslye> Gotta run, everyone. Thanks.
21:01:06 <cslye> cslye has left #webfonts
21:01:14 <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aadd
21:01:15 <ChrisL> ACTION: Jonathan to make proposals to the mailing list for points raised on 12 May call
21:01:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - Make proposals to the mailing list for points raised on 12 May call [on Jonathan Kew - due 2010-05-19].
21:01:46 <ChrisL> AT; Could we all review the whole spec for next week and sent in a prioritised edit list
21:01:56 <ChrisL> s/AT;/AT:
21:03:06 <ChrisL> VL: Also, can we classify proposed changes as general, or technical (specific sections) or editorial (readability etc)
21:03:36 <ChrisL> (general agreement)
21:03:47 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
21:03:47 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [Microsoft], +1.443.895.aaaa, +0845397aabb, +1.781.970.aacc, +1.408.536.aadd, +45.04.2.aaee, ChrisL, +1.212.381.aaff, [IPcaller],
21:03:51 <Zakim> ... +45.04.2.aagg
21:04:10 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
21:04:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
21:04:41 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
21:04:47 <erik> okidoki. have a good trip!
21:04:53 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
21:04:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
21:05:33 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
21:05:36 <ChrisL> adjourned
21:05:39 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
21:05:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
21:05:41 <Zakim> -??P6
21:05:42 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:05:43 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
21:05:45 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:05:45 <Zakim> - +1.781.970.aacc
21:05:46 <Zakim> - +1.443.895.aaaa
21:05:47 <Zakim> -??P10
21:05:48 <Zakim> - +0845397aabb
21:05:48 <Zakim> - +45.04.2.aagg
21:05:50 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()4:00PM has ended
21:05:52 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], +1.443.895.aaaa, +0845397aabb, +1.781.970.aacc, +1.408.536.aadd, +45.04.2.aaee, ChrisL, +1.212.381.aaff, [IPcaller], +45.04.2.aagg
21:05:54 <tal> tal has left #webfonts
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