14:56:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swxg
14:56:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-swxg-irc
14:56:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swxg
14:56:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7994
14:56:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
14:56:11 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2010
14:56:33 <ktk> hhalpin: no I'm new
14:56:38 <hhalpin> Fabien - if you're online, it would also be great if you could give an update on the Open Graph Protocol to those who missed WWW2010...
14:56:42 <yoshiaki> yoshiaki has joined #SWXG
14:56:47 <ktk> I'm adrian gschwend
14:56:50 <hhalpin> welcome adrian!
14:56:53 <ktk> thanks!
14:57:12 <ktk> got introduced to it at last weeks LIFT conference in geneva
14:57:19 <ktk> so thought will have a look :)
14:57:40 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:48 <Zakim> +??P1
14:58:56 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #swxg
14:59:17 <pgroth> good i'm in the right place
14:59:46 <hhalpin> chair: DKA
14:59:50 <hhalpin> scribe: hhalpin
15:00:53 <FabGandon> hhalpin: I'll try to join but can't promise, sorry.
15:01:04 <DKA> zakim, what is the code?
15:01:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DKA
15:01:17 <ktk> any sip available?
15:01:52 <Zakim> + +1.781.416.aaaa
15:02:02 <Zakim> +??P10
15:02:09 <hhalpin> Zakim, ??P10 is hhalpin
15:02:09 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P12
15:02:31 <Zakim> + +0774811aabb
15:02:34 <YolandaGil> YolandaGil has joined #swxg
15:02:36 <DKA> zakim, aabb is me
15:02:36 <Zakim> +DKA; got it
15:02:46 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:02:54 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:02:54 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:03:00 <Zakim> +??P13
15:03:07 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:03:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, +1.781.416.aaaa, hhalpin, ??P12, DKA, MacTed, ??P13
15:03:14 <yoshiaki> zakim, +??P13 is me
15:03:14 <Zakim> sorry, yoshiaki, I do not recognize a party named '+??P13'
15:03:19 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:03:20 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:03:31 <yoshiaki> zakim, P13 is me
15:03:31 <Zakim> sorry, yoshiaki, I do not recognize a party named 'P13'
15:03:40 <cperey> cperey has joined #swxg
15:03:40 <yoshiaki> zakim, ??P13 is me
15:03:40 <Zakim> +yoshiaki; got it
15:03:41 <ktk> hhalpin: k, will check irc then this time. 
15:04:07 <Zakim> +Yolanda
15:04:08 <DKA> Chair: DKA
15:04:12 <Zakim> +??P20
15:04:13 <DKA> Scribe: Harry
15:04:25 <DKA> ScribeNick: hhalpin
15:04:32 <Yuk> zakim, +??p20 is yuk
15:04:32 <Zakim> sorry, Yuk, I do not recognize a party named '+??p20'
15:04:36 <Zakim> + +1.617.848.aacc
15:04:54 <Yuk> zakim +??P20 is yuk
15:05:00 <cperey> zakim, 848.aac is me
15:05:00 <Zakim> sorry, cperey, I do not recognize a party named '848.aac'
15:05:01 <Zakim> +??P26
15:05:16 <danbri> danbri has joined #swxg
15:05:22 <melvster> zakim, ??P26 is me
15:05:22 <Zakim> +melvster; got it
15:05:25 <cperey> zakim, ++1..617.848.aacc is me
15:05:25 <Zakim> sorry, cperey, I do not recognize a party named '++1..617.848.aacc'
15:05:42 <cperey> zakim, ++1.617.848.aacc is me
15:05:42 <Zakim> sorry, cperey, I do not recognize a party named '++1.617.848.aacc'
15:05:46 <cperey> well
15:05:58 <cperey> forget it then
15:06:01 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html
15:06:14 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html as a true record of our last meeting
15:06:42 <hhalpin> +1
15:06:43 <DKA> +1
15:06:44 <melvster> +1
15:06:52 <cperey> zakim, +1.617.848.aacc is me
15:06:53 <Zakim> +cperey; got it
15:06:54 <hhalpin> ACCEPTED:  http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html are a true record of our last meeting
15:07:01 <Zakim> +??P30
15:07:21 <danbri> i just joined, zakim seems sleep
15:07:22 <cperey> do we have invited speaker for meeting of May 19?
15:07:25 <danbri> zakim, who is on the cal?
15:07:25 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danbri.
15:07:27 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/
15:07:31 <hhalpin> That is the most accurate
15:07:34 <hhalpin> record of actions
15:07:43 <Zakim> + +0773779aadd
15:07:54 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open
15:08:19 <cperey> what about spending a meeting on Social Web Frameworks (second edition) paper and preparations for the final XG report?
15:08:52 <hhalpin> it seems that christine's update was the most interesting thing that happened over the last bit of time.
15:09:00 <hhalpin> so I'd be happy to discuss that next week.
15:10:16 <hhalpin> q+
15:10:29 <hhalpin> DKA: We're doing an update on the final report
15:10:37 <DKA> ack hh
15:11:18 <cperey> how will we integrate all the inputs from different groups which have been contributed over the past year?
15:11:26 <danbri> (am i connected?)
15:11:44 <cperey> can we include this in the discussion about final XG report?
15:11:47 <Zakim> + +0752818aaee
15:11:54 <hhalpin> ... we have a paper on XMPP from the OneSocialWeb work from vodafone
15:11:57 <hhalpin> ... so we have running code
15:12:02 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy
15:12:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's noisy', MacTed
15:12:03 <hhalpin> ... to let people set up their own node
15:12:05 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:12:08 <cperey> q+
15:12:09 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's making noise?
15:12:15 <DKA> ack cper
15:12:17 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.416.aaaa (36%), DKA (22%), ??P20 (27%), cperey (35%), +0752818aaee (18%)
15:12:26 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute ??P20
15:12:26 <Zakim> ??P20 should now be muted
15:12:28 <Zakim> hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.416.aaaa (45%), ??P20 (79%)
15:12:35 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute aaaa
15:12:35 <Zakim> +1.781.416.aaaa should now be muted
15:12:56 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:12:56 <hhalpin> cperey: we could discuss the final report next meeting
15:13:08 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (100%)
15:13:39 <Zakim> - +0752818aaee
15:13:43 <hhalpin> hhalpin: XMLSpec
15:13:54 <cperey> the story...
15:13:57 <hhalpin> DKA: the storyline of the final report must be discussed
15:13:58 <cperey> the narrative
15:14:03 <mischat> mischat has joined #swxg
15:14:05 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #swxg
15:14:13 <bblfish> bblfish has left #swxg
15:14:24 <hhalpin> I'm happy to review that, although it's been discussed extensively in the past.
15:14:32 <cperey> yes, and not include the XMPP detailed discussion in that
15:14:47 <Zakim> + +0208439aaff
15:14:55 <cperey> is there a Table of Contents?
15:14:58 <mischat> zakim, +0208439aaff is me 
15:14:59 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:15:05 <mischat> hello all, sorry i am late 
15:15:09 <cperey> I don't know the narrative so, I think we need another meeting on it
15:15:11 <mischat> zakim, mute me 
15:15:11 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:15:16 <hhalpin> PROPOSED: next meeting to focus on final report?
15:15:16 <mischat> hi pgroth 
15:15:17 <mischat> :)
15:15:29 <mischat> nope 
15:15:30 <mischat> mischa
15:15:57 <cperey> +1
15:16:00 <cperey> editorial meeting
15:16:01 <DKA> +1
15:16:04 <hhalpin> ACCEPTED: Next meeting will focus on narrative and structure of final report
15:16:38 <hhalpin> topic: Provenance and the Social Web with invited guest Paul Groth from Provenance XG.
15:16:46 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #swxg
15:16:51 <bblfish> hi
15:16:56 <ktk> hi henry
15:16:59 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Social_Web
15:17:09 <hhalpin> pgroth: the best way to proceed is to take a look at the work we've done on the use-cases
15:17:20 <oshani> oshani has joined #swxg
15:17:21 <hhalpin> pgroth: we gathered a use-case at the provenance XG
15:17:38 <hhalpin> pgroth: does this reflect the work the issues from the Social Web XG?
15:17:50 <hhalpin> pgroth: talk about how we've organized the requirements in our XG
15:17:57 <hhalpin> ... and if that captures what you guys think?
15:18:04 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aagg
15:18:13 <hhalpin> ... if you look at that site
15:18:21 <hhalpin> ... we have a scenario about news aggregator
15:18:32 <mischat> mischat has left #swxg
15:18:32 <hhalpin> ... imagine a news aggregator (BlogAd) that integrates information from Twitter and blogs
15:18:41 <hhalpin> ... to make a nice neat site, like an automated Huffington Post
15:18:41 <mischat> mischat has joined #swxg
15:18:54 <hhalpin> ... the key question here is how to determine where it's content is coming from
15:19:00 <Zakim> + +49.238.aahh
15:19:02 <hhalpin> ... the example we use is the trending topic on twitter
15:19:11 <hhalpin> ... a tweet about pandas being moved from chicago to florida
15:19:23 <hhalpin> ... so the aggregator wants to find information about it
15:19:55 <hhalpin> ... the particular story should be aggregated
15:20:03 <hhalpin> ... so we can track origin and give credit to the originator of the story
15:20:13 <FabGandon> Zakim, +49.238.aahh is me
15:20:13 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:20:14 <hhalpin> ... and we'd also like for the originator to maintain anonymity
15:20:22 <hhalpin> ... not just republishing a tweet
15:20:29 <hhalpin> ... but adding metadata to the tweet
15:20:35 <hhalpin> ... follow the tinyURL on the tweet
15:20:46 <hhalpin> ... might find an image of the panda
15:20:57 <paul> paul has joined #swxg
15:20:59 <hhalpin> ... wants to display that image and figure out license associated with that image
15:21:14 <hhalpin> ... and whether or not we can license that image from the re-use.
15:21:55 <hhalpin> ... the originator of this panda tweet
15:21:59 <hhalpin> ... may want to retract that information
15:22:09 <hhalpin> ... and the blog aggregator should be able to determine
15:22:14 <hhalpin> ... if someone has retracted information
15:22:31 <hhalpin> ... or if someone dynamically wants to be dis-identified with a particular piece of information.
15:22:51 <hhalpin> ... this is the broad outline, trying to outline.
15:23:00 <bblfish> yes, makes sense
15:23:01 <hhalpin> q+
15:23:07 <DKA> q?
15:23:14 <DKA> ack hh
15:24:21 <hhalpin> are there any technical solutions that could help solve this use-case?
15:24:23 <cperey> yes, the question we would like to have answered is "what are the types of technologies in Provenance used to solve issues such as set forth in this use case?"
15:24:58 <hhalpin> I'm happy with your overview :)
15:24:59 <cperey> +1
15:25:18 <mischat> can RDF, as defined in the rec without named graphs, be used to track provenance information from multiple sources?
15:25:50 <cperey> Open Provenance Model
15:25:57 <cperey> Provenance vocabulary
15:25:57 <hhalpin> pgroth: there are a number of open solutions
15:26:02 <cperey> Provenance Mark up ???
15:26:11 <mischat> http://open-biomed.sourceforge.net/opmv/ns.html
15:26:12 <hhalpin> ... in particular, the OPM, the Provenance Markup Language (PML)
15:26:20 <cperey> Provenance Markup Language (PML)
15:26:21 <hhalpin> ... and these solutions "represent" provenance
15:26:39 <hhalpin> pgroth: and there are then systems that *implement* the capture of provenance
15:26:45 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings
15:26:55 <hhalpin> ... some involve instrumenting the actual operating system (PASS?)
15:27:16 <hhalpin> ... other systems look at workflow engines, where workflow engines capture everything that happens
15:27:33 <hhalpin> ... and then there are programming languages that have provenance libraries that can then capture the flow of the program
15:27:41 <hhalpin> ... the hard part of all of these is that their isolated to one system
15:27:48 <hhalpin> ... so there is no clear open system
15:27:55 <paul> Somewhat related:http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=orms
15:27:55 <hhalpin> ... the common representation system
15:28:10 <hhalpin> ... how do we instrument database system for capturing provenance?
15:28:14 <YolandaGil> Paul: you may want to describe the overall framework for provenance that we have developed in the group: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/User_Requirements#Requirements_for_Provenance_on_the_Web
15:28:50 <hhalpin> pgroth: then the final work is formally understaning provenance
15:28:58 <hhalpin> ... such as special operators for tracking provenance
15:29:12 <hhalpin> ... but overall, we are still in the space of understanding the scenarios
15:29:20 <YolandaGil> I think the framework helps think about provenance issues.  There is no comprehensive solution space for all these issues, only pockets of work.
15:29:27 <mischat> ?q
15:29:30 <mischat> q+
15:29:45 <hhalpin> DKA: I'm struggling to get the social aspect of it
15:30:06 <hhalpin> ... when your talking about assigining provenance which means that we have to identify the owner?
15:30:26 <hhalpin> ... what are your options for identifying the owner, particular people, facets of people's identity?
15:30:54 <hhalpin> pgroth: alot of these solutions ground out in an identity framework
15:31:08 <hhalpin> ... in the end, we have to know whose responsible for a particular item or entity
15:31:13 <hhalpin> ... we need to ground out in identity
15:31:22 <hhalpin> ... what that identity solution is should be more in social web space
15:31:23 <hhalpin> q+
15:31:30 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
15:31:30 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
15:31:33 <DKA> ack mi
15:31:46 <hhalpin> mischat: I have a question regarding the suitability of RDF as is
15:31:56 <hhalpin> ... whether or not it can track provenance at all
15:32:03 <hhalpin> ... are you contributing to the RDF next steps workshop?
15:32:13 <hhalpin> ... are standardizing named graphs a good idea?
15:32:19 <hhalpin> pgroth: we submited a position paper
15:32:27 <hhalpin> ... we didn't endorse any solution
15:32:52 <hhalpin> ... but we came up with some existing solutions
15:32:58 <hhalpin> ... that we thought were kinda of good
15:33:02 <FabGandon> by the way, we also submitted a paper on that subject http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Fabien.Gandon/docs/NameThatGraph/
15:33:24 <pgroth> yolanda are you on the phone?
15:33:58 <bblfish> you mean rdf/xml does not supprt named graphs. But it is in the semantics I believe (or else it would not be possible to do SPARQL)
15:34:03 <hhalpin> yolanda: we have decided not to endorse a particular solution
15:34:11 <hhalpin> ... we focussed on a few requirements
15:34:17 <hhalpin> ... in particular
15:34:21 <hhalpin> ... 3 major issues
15:34:27 <hhalpin> ... 1) content of what you are presenting
15:34:35 <hhalpin> ... 2) how do you manage provenance
15:34:46 <cperey> what about trust of the source of provenance?
15:34:47 <hhalpin> ... 3) how do you use provenance (merging it)
15:35:03 <mischat> bblfish: n3 is not a rec as far as i am aware
15:35:03 <mischat> ?
15:35:05 <FabGandon> +1 to look at the many possibilities existing in the literature
15:35:07 <mischat> rdf/xml is 
15:35:15 <bblfish> Also I wonder if named graphs is needed on the publication side. If you want to say that something was written by someone you can say it quite easily <http://bblfish.net/> a foaf:HomePage; dc:created <http://bblfish.net/poeple/henry/card#me> .
15:35:33 <cperey> q+
15:35:33 <hhalpin> ... we would be able to refer to groups and unions of triples
15:35:42 <hhalpin> ... and tell whether or not two entities are the same or not
15:35:52 <hhalpin> ... we also need to support evolution
15:35:57 <hhalpin> ... as any artifact will change over time
15:36:14 <hhalpin> ... this comes up in the retraction of tweets
15:36:15 <FabGandon> bblfish: RDF model doesn't have named graphs, RDF/XML does not have a syntax for that (as a matter of fact) only SPARQL has GRAPH and source  primitives
15:36:19 <hhalpin> ... the nature of the twitter
15:36:32 <hhalpin> ... including any transforms of content in republishing
15:36:44 <hhalpin> ... the last requirement is the support for entailment
15:36:57 <hhalpin> ... some things you can't assert
15:37:03 <bblfish> the rdf semantics document speaks about graphs, merging them, etc… The rdf/xml syntax has a restriction, but that is something else
15:37:08 <mischat> thanks FabGandon, and yes am aware of your namedgraph paper 
15:37:21 <hhalpin> ... so you could try to associate if someone like hhalpin said something, he is a w3c fellow, etc.
15:37:28 <hhalpin> ... these are the three requirements
15:37:36 <hhalpin> ... the two requirements that seemed relevant to baseline RDF
15:37:41 <hhalpin> ... one needs to make provenance assertions
15:37:49 <hhalpin> ... to publish a subset
15:37:52 <hhalpin> ... of provenance records
15:37:58 <hhalpin> ... I don't want to publish my name
15:38:15 <hhalpin> ... but I don't mind publishing some characteristics, a position, an affliation, an insitution I'm at.
15:38:25 <hhalpin> ... fifth requirement is querying
15:38:55 <hhalpin> ... we want to bring up these issues.
15:39:07 <bblfish> btw, for change over time, one could use the atom ontology http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/AtomOwl.html
15:39:08 <hhalpin> ... so we did refer to particular solutions, such as named graphs
15:39:12 <FabGandon> mischat: one of the scenarios comes from Social Web and is called "Named graphs to embody the social act of tagging"
15:39:19 <hhalpin> mischat: this is similar to what we've been talking about in the Social Web XG
15:39:20 <DKA> q?
15:39:34 <DKA> ack hh
15:39:46 <mischat> he is 
15:40:49 <paul> I'm on the line now
15:40:55 <hhalpin> so now I'll summarize that
15:41:03 <hhalpin> oh, perhaps you should speak up now paul!
15:41:07 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:41:07 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:41:11 <hhalpin> Three main identity technologies we've been looking at
15:41:19 <DKA> q?
15:41:43 <hhalpin> 1) OpenID - see notes from meeting with Dick Hardt, still seems like things may be revised in vNext.
15:42:10 <hhalpin> 2) WebID - using SSL plus FOAF, see notes from meeting with Henry Story
15:42:24 <hhalpin> 3) Infocards - see work on Higgins project, no meeting with them yet, but hoping to get one soon!
15:42:30 <mischat> Thomas and our chair Dan are hosting a privacy related workshop in london http://www.w3.org/2010/api-privacy-ws/
15:42:51 <hhalpin> cperey: how do you manage trust
15:42:59 <hhalpin> cperey: verify it, source it, etc.
15:43:15 <hhalpin> yolanda: there is one underlying model of provenance
15:43:23 <hhalpin> ... possibly a very long chain, following all these tweets and blogs
15:43:29 <hhalpin> ... around all these tweets and blogs
15:43:35 <mischat> http://www.eclipse.org/higgins/
15:43:42 <DKA> Also note that the OneSocialWeb/XMPP work represents another model for identity...
15:43:50 <mischat> higgin's project ^^ ?
15:43:55 <hhalpin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgins_project
15:44:09 <hhalpin> ... from our work, we seem to think trust is very subjective
15:44:16 <cperey> trust is subjective, a judgement, about if an entity is reliable, etc 
15:44:17 <hhalpin> ... if a particular entity or assertion is reliable/believable
15:44:29 <hhalpin> yolanda: so we think of trust as one of the uses of provenance
15:44:36 <hhalpin> ... so we have separated the scope of our group
15:45:05 <hhalpin> ... and so we hope that many different approaches (like using social nets, algorithms) to derive and propagate trust over adequate provenance information.
15:45:15 <hhalpin> ... whether or not we trust particular provenance assertions
15:45:22 <hhalpin> ... is where signatures and authentication come in.
15:45:32 <DKA> q?
15:45:38 <hhalpin> (notes that otherwise things get circular, i.e. we have to trust provenance in order to build trust!)
15:45:44 <hhalpin> (so we need some grounding out...)
15:45:57 <cperey> I took my turn :-)
15:45:57 <hhalpin> fabien: happy to hear the provenance xg that there are many options
15:46:10 <hhalpin> ... so we are happy to see group wants to keep option open
15:46:19 <hhalpin> ... such as pat hayes' surface proposal, an alternative to named graphs
15:46:27 <mischat> http://eclipse.org/higgins/ Higgins projects : Personal Data Store (exciting), Identity Services, and Active Client
15:46:29 <hhalpin> ... as far as I'm concerned, we used the use-case 
15:46:38 <hhalpin> ... of the social web xg in our paper
15:46:43 <hhalpin> ... so we want to embody the act of social tagging
15:46:50 <hhalpin> ... and we wanted to use named graphs in social tagging
15:47:06 <hhalpin> (note that we also need to have a session discussing tagging, i.e. CommonTag and NiceTag work!)
15:47:15 <hhalpin> paulgroth: we're a bit newer than the Social Web XG
15:47:24 <hhalpin> ... so we're just starting to look at technical space of work
15:47:25 <mischat> http://iswc2009.semanticweb.org/wiki/index.php/ISWC_2009_Keynote/Pat_Hayes
15:47:38 <YolandaGil> +1
15:47:39 <hhalpin> ... identity is a really important part of grounding out
15:47:55 <hhalpin> q+
15:48:00 <DKA> ack hh
15:48:03 <mischat> ?q
15:48:05 <DKA> ack cp
15:48:32 <mischat> paul: are you from the higgins project?
15:48:45 <mischat> pgroth: = provenance xg 
15:49:11 <DKA> q?
15:49:28 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?
15:49:42 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (33%)
15:49:59 <bblfish> can't hear harry anymore
15:50:04 <paul> +q
15:50:15 <DKA> ack paul
15:50:22 <mischat> zakim, unmute paul 
15:50:22 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to paul
15:50:49 <paul> I talk, but nobody can hear me
15:50:55 <hhalpin> Zakim, unmute ??P20
15:50:55 <Zakim> ??P20 should no longer be muted
15:50:58 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
15:50:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, +1.781.416.aaaa (muted), hhalpin, ??P12, DKA, MacTed (muted), yoshiaki, Yolanda, ??P20, cperey, melvster, ??P30, +0773779aadd, mischat (muted),
15:51:00 <danbri> what happened?
15:51:00 <hhalpin> Zakim, unmute aaaa
15:51:01 <Zakim> ... +1.617.324.aagg, FabGandon
15:51:02 <Zakim> +1.781.416.aaaa should no longer be muted
15:51:06 <hhalpin> ?
15:51:09 <mischat> hehe
15:51:23 <mischat> yes
15:51:24 <bblfish> ye
15:51:24 <hhalpin> yes we can hear you!
15:51:32 <bblfish> it was very interesting
15:51:39 <hhalpin> sorry, there was a mute button on, due to keyboard clacking issues towards beginning of telecon.
15:51:45 <DKA> zakim, who is making noise?
15:51:47 <hhalpin> paul: the space is still evolving
15:51:56 <Zakim> DKA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.416.aaaa (87%), ??P20 (30%)
15:51:56 <hhalpin> ... we are starting on OpenID vNext
15:52:02 <DKA> zakim, aaaa is paul
15:52:02 <Zakim> +paul; got it
15:52:07 <danbri> http://www.sociallipstick.com/?p=239 is an interesting read, w.r.t. oauth2 as a foundation for openid2
15:52:12 <hhalpin> ... but of course WebID and FOAF stuff is less mainstream
15:52:12 <danbri> s/2/ng/
15:52:14 <bblfish> there's a train
15:52:26 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's making noise?
15:52:27 <mischat> zakim, mute 1.781.416.aaaa
15:52:27 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 1.781.416.aaaa
15:52:33 <bblfish> that's the sound of foaf+ssl leaving the station  :-)
15:52:37 <hhalpin> Zakim, unmute aaaa
15:52:37 <Zakim> sorry, hhalpin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aaaa
15:52:42 <Zakim> hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P20 (67%)
15:52:51 <hhalpin> Zakim, unmute aaaa
15:52:51 <Zakim> sorry, hhalpin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aaaa
15:52:59 <DKA> zakim, unmute paul
15:52:59 <Zakim> paul was not muted, DKA
15:53:11 <hhalpin> DKA: Any perspective on XMPP-based identity out there?
15:53:17 <DKA> zakim, mute ??p20
15:53:17 <Zakim> ??P20 should now be muted
15:53:19 <hhalpin> Paul: it will be interesting to see for us
15:53:25 <hhalpin> ... what the Social Web XG figures out
15:53:31 <hhalpin> ... so we're trying to figure out
15:53:50 <hhalpin> ... from the space of current provenance work connects the existing social web technologies
15:53:59 <hhalpin> ... alot of our technology comes from different spaces
15:53:59 <paul> -q
15:54:25 <hhalpin> paulgroth: a lot of work from databases and workflows
15:54:30 <mischat> q+
15:54:34 <hhalpin> paul: I wish I had better news
15:54:43 <hhalpin> ... the identity community is struggling with its own internal fragmentation
15:55:01 <hhalpin> ... the general belief is that provenance and reputation have a pre-condition of reliable identity
15:55:10 <YolandaGil> I agree!
15:55:12 <hhalpin> ... which I think is consistent with what the provenance xg is saying
15:55:15 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
15:55:15 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
15:55:18 <mischat> ?q
15:55:23 <DKA> ack misc
15:56:16 <DKA> q?
15:56:59 <hhalpin> paulgroth: the ability to embed this data
15:57:05 <hhalpin> ... so we could embed it in header of image
15:57:09 <hhalpin> ... and the whole notion of signatures
15:57:14 <hhalpin> ... that is part of this story
15:57:27 <hhalpin> ... but we haven't actually finished this off
15:57:35 <hhalpin> yolanda: the only thing I would want to say
15:57:54 <hhalpin> ... is that we've been trying to understand what different groups want
15:58:02 <hhalpin> ... so when we met with harry at WWW2010 conference
15:58:12 <hhalpin> ... there was some requirements that were new from the Social Web XG use-cases
15:58:23 <hhalpin> ... in particular, the deletion of records in a social networking site
15:58:26 <mischat> hehe, and for reasoning :)
15:58:27 <hhalpin> ... and what that has to do with provenance
15:58:32 <cperey> is there a problem with the bridge? or ...
15:58:37 <hhalpin> +1 good point mischat
15:58:55 <cperey> I"m back :-)
15:59:14 <hhalpin> yolanda: there are aspects that we haven't considered.
16:00:44 <hhalpin> ... so if we hope to address all your requirements in our document
16:01:23 <hhalpin> ... all of us are very aware that we need to present solution-space, not just requirement-space
16:01:33 <cperey> agree also that this applies to SWXG work!
16:02:03 <hhalpin> mischat: the whole concept of reasoning
16:02:11 <hhalpin> ... there is this notion of inferred triples
16:02:24 <hhalpin> ... we don't do reasoning in our triple store as we update and delete data constantly
16:02:40 <hhalpin> ... does the XG deal with entailment/reasoning in dynamic knowledge-bases?
16:02:59 <hhalpin> ... should I be putting all my inferred triples in the ontology
16:03:25 <hhalpin> yolanda: entailment is one of the big issues in the RDF next step papers
16:03:30 <hhalpin> ... absolutely definitely the case
16:03:37 <hhalpin> ... no record will be exhaustive or complete
16:03:59 <FabGandon> q+ to ask about multiple provenances in reasonning
16:04:39 <Zakim> -??P30
16:05:22 <DKA> ack fab
16:05:22 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to ask about multiple provenances in reasonning
16:05:23 <mischat> zakim, unmute me 
16:05:25 <Zakim> mischat was not muted, mischat
16:05:25 <Zakim> -??P20
16:05:28 <mischat> zakim, mute me 
16:05:28 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:06:04 <mischat> pgroth: ?
16:06:24 <Zakim> -paul
16:06:33 <hhalpin> FabienGandon: Can I combine provenance from multiple sources?
16:06:50 <mischat> multiple personas online :)
16:07:04 <bblfish> "Beatnik: Change your mind" a simple blog post I wrote about trust http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/beatnik_change_your_mind
16:07:23 <hhalpin> yolanda: so different provenances from different repositories
16:07:43 <mischat> yay 
16:07:55 <mischat> media standards trusts are looking at as far as i am aware 
16:08:05 <mischat> provenance is news is a dream
16:08:13 <mischat> s/is new/in news/
16:08:38 <hhalpin> Meeting Adjourned
16:08:40 <cperey> thank you!
16:08:44 <pgroth> yeah provenance in news is good
16:08:46 <mischat> www.mediastandardstrust.org/projects.aspx  
16:08:48 <pgroth> thanks everyone
16:08:48 <hhalpin> Next call - final report narrative!!
16:08:53 <hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
16:08:53 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:08:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.781.416.aaaa, hhalpin, +0774811aabb, DKA, MacTed, yoshiaki, Yolanda, melvster, cperey, +0773779aadd, +0752818aaee, mischat,
16:08:53 <bblfish> thanks
16:08:54 <mischat> bye bye pgroth 
16:08:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:08:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
16:08:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:08:55 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:08:57 <Zakim> ... +1.617.324.aagg, FabGandon, paul
16:08:59 <Zakim> -??P1