IRC log of swxg on 2010-05-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
14:56:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-swxg-irc
14:56:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swxg
14:56:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
14:56:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
14:56:11 [trackbot]
Date: 12 May 2010
14:56:33 [ktk]
hhalpin: no I'm new
14:56:38 [hhalpin]
Fabien - if you're online, it would also be great if you could give an update on the Open Graph Protocol to those who missed WWW2010...
14:56:42 [yoshiaki]
yoshiaki has joined #SWXG
14:56:47 [ktk]
I'm adrian gschwend
14:56:50 [hhalpin]
welcome adrian!
14:56:53 [ktk]
thanks!
14:57:12 [ktk]
got introduced to it at last weeks LIFT conference in geneva
14:57:19 [ktk]
so thought will have a look :)
14:57:40 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:48 [Zakim]
+??P1
14:58:56 [pgroth]
pgroth has joined #swxg
14:59:17 [pgroth]
good i'm in the right place
14:59:46 [hhalpin]
chair: DKA
14:59:50 [hhalpin]
scribe: hhalpin
15:00:53 [FabGandon]
hhalpin: I'll try to join but can't promise, sorry.
15:01:04 [DKA]
zakim, what is the code?
15:01:04 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DKA
15:01:17 [ktk]
any sip available?
15:01:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.416.aaaa
15:02:02 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:02:09 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ??P10 is hhalpin
15:02:09 [Zakim]
+hhalpin; got it
15:02:30 [Zakim]
+??P12
15:02:31 [Zakim]
+ +0774811aabb
15:02:34 [YolandaGil]
YolandaGil has joined #swxg
15:02:36 [DKA]
zakim, aabb is me
15:02:36 [Zakim]
+DKA; got it
15:02:46 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
15:02:54 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:02:54 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:03:00 [Zakim]
+??P13
15:03:07 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:03:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P1, +1.781.416.aaaa, hhalpin, ??P12, DKA, MacTed, ??P13
15:03:14 [yoshiaki]
zakim, +??P13 is me
15:03:14 [Zakim]
sorry, yoshiaki, I do not recognize a party named '+??P13'
15:03:19 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:03:20 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:03:31 [yoshiaki]
zakim, P13 is me
15:03:31 [Zakim]
sorry, yoshiaki, I do not recognize a party named 'P13'
15:03:40 [cperey]
cperey has joined #swxg
15:03:40 [yoshiaki]
zakim, ??P13 is me
15:03:40 [Zakim]
+yoshiaki; got it
15:03:41 [ktk]
hhalpin: k, will check irc then this time.
15:04:07 [Zakim]
+Yolanda
15:04:08 [DKA]
Chair: DKA
15:04:12 [Zakim]
+??P20
15:04:13 [DKA]
Scribe: Harry
15:04:25 [DKA]
ScribeNick: hhalpin
15:04:32 [Yuk]
zakim, +??p20 is yuk
15:04:32 [Zakim]
sorry, Yuk, I do not recognize a party named '+??p20'
15:04:36 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.848.aacc
15:04:54 [Yuk]
zakim +??P20 is yuk
15:05:00 [cperey]
zakim, 848.aac is me
15:05:00 [Zakim]
sorry, cperey, I do not recognize a party named '848.aac'
15:05:01 [Zakim]
+??P26
15:05:16 [danbri]
danbri has joined #swxg
15:05:22 [melvster]
zakim, ??P26 is me
15:05:22 [Zakim]
+melvster; got it
15:05:25 [cperey]
zakim, ++1..617.848.aacc is me
15:05:25 [Zakim]
sorry, cperey, I do not recognize a party named '++1..617.848.aacc'
15:05:42 [cperey]
zakim, ++1.617.848.aacc is me
15:05:42 [Zakim]
sorry, cperey, I do not recognize a party named '++1.617.848.aacc'
15:05:46 [cperey]
well
15:05:58 [cperey]
forget it then
15:06:01 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html
15:06:14 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: Accept http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html as a true record of our last meeting
15:06:42 [hhalpin]
+1
15:06:43 [DKA]
+1
15:06:44 [melvster]
+1
15:06:52 [cperey]
zakim, +1.617.848.aacc is me
15:06:53 [Zakim]
+cperey; got it
15:06:54 [hhalpin]
ACCEPTED: http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html are a true record of our last meeting
15:07:01 [Zakim]
+??P30
15:07:21 [danbri]
i just joined, zakim seems sleep
15:07:22 [cperey]
do we have invited speaker for meeting of May 19?
15:07:25 [danbri]
zakim, who is on the cal?
15:07:25 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, danbri.
15:07:27 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/
15:07:31 [hhalpin]
That is the most accurate
15:07:34 [hhalpin]
record of actions
15:07:43 [Zakim]
+ +0773779aadd
15:07:54 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open
15:08:19 [cperey]
what about spending a meeting on Social Web Frameworks (second edition) paper and preparations for the final XG report?
15:08:52 [hhalpin]
it seems that christine's update was the most interesting thing that happened over the last bit of time.
15:09:00 [hhalpin]
so I'd be happy to discuss that next week.
15:10:16 [hhalpin]
q+
15:10:29 [hhalpin]
DKA: We're doing an update on the final report
15:10:37 [DKA]
ack hh
15:11:18 [cperey]
how will we integrate all the inputs from different groups which have been contributed over the past year?
15:11:26 [danbri]
(am i connected?)
15:11:44 [cperey]
can we include this in the discussion about final XG report?
15:11:47 [Zakim]
+ +0752818aaee
15:11:54 [hhalpin]
... we have a paper on XMPP from the OneSocialWeb work from vodafone
15:11:57 [hhalpin]
... so we have running code
15:12:02 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's noisy
15:12:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's noisy', MacTed
15:12:03 [hhalpin]
... to let people set up their own node
15:12:05 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's noisy?
15:12:08 [cperey]
q+
15:12:09 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's making noise?
15:12:15 [DKA]
ack cper
15:12:17 [Zakim]
MacTed, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.416.aaaa (36%), DKA (22%), ??P20 (27%), cperey (35%), +0752818aaee (18%)
15:12:26 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute ??P20
15:12:26 [Zakim]
??P20 should now be muted
15:12:28 [Zakim]
hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.416.aaaa (45%), ??P20 (79%)
15:12:35 [hhalpin]
Zakim, mute aaaa
15:12:35 [Zakim]
+1.781.416.aaaa should now be muted
15:12:56 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's noisy?
15:12:56 [hhalpin]
cperey: we could discuss the final report next meeting
15:13:08 [Zakim]
MacTed, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: hhalpin (100%)
15:13:39 [Zakim]
- +0752818aaee
15:13:43 [hhalpin]
hhalpin: XMLSpec
15:13:54 [cperey]
the story...
15:13:57 [hhalpin]
DKA: the storyline of the final report must be discussed
15:13:58 [cperey]
the narrative
15:14:03 [mischat]
mischat has joined #swxg
15:14:05 [bblfish]
bblfish has joined #swxg
15:14:13 [bblfish]
bblfish has left #swxg
15:14:24 [hhalpin]
I'm happy to review that, although it's been discussed extensively in the past.
15:14:32 [cperey]
yes, and not include the XMPP detailed discussion in that
15:14:47 [Zakim]
+ +0208439aaff
15:14:55 [cperey]
is there a Table of Contents?
15:14:58 [mischat]
zakim, +0208439aaff is me
15:14:59 [Zakim]
+mischat; got it
15:15:05 [mischat]
hello all, sorry i am late
15:15:09 [cperey]
I don't know the narrative so, I think we need another meeting on it
15:15:11 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
15:15:11 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
15:15:16 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: next meeting to focus on final report?
15:15:16 [mischat]
hi pgroth
15:15:17 [mischat]
:)
15:15:29 [mischat]
nope
15:15:30 [mischat]
mischa
15:15:57 [cperey]
+1
15:16:00 [cperey]
editorial meeting
15:16:01 [DKA]
+1
15:16:04 [hhalpin]
ACCEPTED: Next meeting will focus on narrative and structure of final report
15:16:38 [hhalpin]
topic: Provenance and the Social Web with invited guest Paul Groth from Provenance XG.
15:16:46 [bblfish]
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15:16:51 [bblfish]
hi
15:16:56 [ktk]
hi henry
15:16:59 [pgroth]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Social_Web
15:17:09 [hhalpin]
pgroth: the best way to proceed is to take a look at the work we've done on the use-cases
15:17:20 [oshani]
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15:17:21 [hhalpin]
pgroth: we gathered a use-case at the provenance XG
15:17:38 [hhalpin]
pgroth: does this reflect the work the issues from the Social Web XG?
15:17:50 [hhalpin]
pgroth: talk about how we've organized the requirements in our XG
15:17:57 [hhalpin]
... and if that captures what you guys think?
15:18:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.324.aagg
15:18:13 [hhalpin]
... if you look at that site
15:18:21 [hhalpin]
... we have a scenario about news aggregator
15:18:32 [mischat]
mischat has left #swxg
15:18:32 [hhalpin]
... imagine a news aggregator (BlogAd) that integrates information from Twitter and blogs
15:18:41 [hhalpin]
... to make a nice neat site, like an automated Huffington Post
15:18:41 [mischat]
mischat has joined #swxg
15:18:54 [hhalpin]
... the key question here is how to determine where it's content is coming from
15:19:00 [Zakim]
+ +49.238.aahh
15:19:02 [hhalpin]
... the example we use is the trending topic on twitter
15:19:11 [hhalpin]
... a tweet about pandas being moved from chicago to florida
15:19:23 [hhalpin]
... so the aggregator wants to find information about it
15:19:55 [hhalpin]
... the particular story should be aggregated
15:20:03 [hhalpin]
... so we can track origin and give credit to the originator of the story
15:20:13 [FabGandon]
Zakim, +49.238.aahh is me
15:20:13 [Zakim]
+FabGandon; got it
15:20:14 [hhalpin]
... and we'd also like for the originator to maintain anonymity
15:20:22 [hhalpin]
... not just republishing a tweet
15:20:29 [hhalpin]
... but adding metadata to the tweet
15:20:35 [hhalpin]
... follow the tinyURL on the tweet
15:20:46 [hhalpin]
... might find an image of the panda
15:20:57 [paul]
paul has joined #swxg
15:20:59 [hhalpin]
... wants to display that image and figure out license associated with that image
15:21:14 [hhalpin]
... and whether or not we can license that image from the re-use.
15:21:55 [hhalpin]
... the originator of this panda tweet
15:21:59 [hhalpin]
... may want to retract that information
15:22:09 [hhalpin]
... and the blog aggregator should be able to determine
15:22:14 [hhalpin]
... if someone has retracted information
15:22:31 [hhalpin]
... or if someone dynamically wants to be dis-identified with a particular piece of information.
15:22:51 [hhalpin]
... this is the broad outline, trying to outline.
15:23:00 [bblfish]
yes, makes sense
15:23:01 [hhalpin]
q+
15:23:07 [DKA]
q?
15:23:14 [DKA]
ack hh
15:24:21 [hhalpin]
are there any technical solutions that could help solve this use-case?
15:24:23 [cperey]
yes, the question we would like to have answered is "what are the types of technologies in Provenance used to solve issues such as set forth in this use case?"
15:24:58 [hhalpin]
I'm happy with your overview :)
15:24:59 [cperey]
+1
15:25:18 [mischat]
can RDF, as defined in the rec without named graphs, be used to track provenance information from multiple sources?
15:25:50 [cperey]
Open Provenance Model
15:25:57 [cperey]
Provenance vocabulary
15:25:57 [hhalpin]
pgroth: there are a number of open solutions
15:26:02 [cperey]
Provenance Mark up ???
15:26:11 [mischat]
http://open-biomed.sourceforge.net/opmv/ns.html
15:26:12 [hhalpin]
... in particular, the OPM, the Provenance Markup Language (PML)
15:26:20 [cperey]
Provenance Markup Language (PML)
15:26:21 [hhalpin]
... and these solutions "represent" provenance
15:26:39 [hhalpin]
pgroth: and there are then systems that *implement* the capture of provenance
15:26:45 [mischat]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings
15:26:55 [hhalpin]
... some involve instrumenting the actual operating system (PASS?)
15:27:16 [hhalpin]
... other systems look at workflow engines, where workflow engines capture everything that happens
15:27:33 [hhalpin]
... and then there are programming languages that have provenance libraries that can then capture the flow of the program
15:27:41 [hhalpin]
... the hard part of all of these is that their isolated to one system
15:27:48 [hhalpin]
... so there is no clear open system
15:27:55 [paul]
Somewhat related:http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=orms
15:27:55 [hhalpin]
... the common representation system
15:28:10 [hhalpin]
... how do we instrument database system for capturing provenance?
15:28:14 [YolandaGil]
Paul: you may want to describe the overall framework for provenance that we have developed in the group: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/User_Requirements#Requirements_for_Provenance_on_the_Web
15:28:50 [hhalpin]
pgroth: then the final work is formally understaning provenance
15:28:58 [hhalpin]
... such as special operators for tracking provenance
15:29:12 [hhalpin]
... but overall, we are still in the space of understanding the scenarios
15:29:20 [YolandaGil]
I think the framework helps think about provenance issues. There is no comprehensive solution space for all these issues, only pockets of work.
15:29:27 [mischat]
?q
15:29:30 [mischat]
q+
15:29:45 [hhalpin]
DKA: I'm struggling to get the social aspect of it
15:30:06 [hhalpin]
... when your talking about assigining provenance which means that we have to identify the owner?
15:30:26 [hhalpin]
... what are your options for identifying the owner, particular people, facets of people's identity?
15:30:54 [hhalpin]
pgroth: alot of these solutions ground out in an identity framework
15:31:08 [hhalpin]
... in the end, we have to know whose responsible for a particular item or entity
15:31:13 [hhalpin]
... we need to ground out in identity
15:31:22 [hhalpin]
... what that identity solution is should be more in social web space
15:31:23 [hhalpin]
q+
15:31:30 [mischat]
zakim, unmute me
15:31:30 [Zakim]
mischat should no longer be muted
15:31:33 [DKA]
ack mi
15:31:46 [hhalpin]
mischat: I have a question regarding the suitability of RDF as is
15:31:56 [hhalpin]
... whether or not it can track provenance at all
15:32:03 [hhalpin]
... are you contributing to the RDF next steps workshop?
15:32:13 [hhalpin]
... are standardizing named graphs a good idea?
15:32:19 [hhalpin]
pgroth: we submited a position paper
15:32:27 [hhalpin]
... we didn't endorse any solution
15:32:52 [hhalpin]
... but we came up with some existing solutions
15:32:58 [hhalpin]
... that we thought were kinda of good
15:33:02 [FabGandon]
by the way, we also submitted a paper on that subject http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Fabien.Gandon/docs/NameThatGraph/
15:33:24 [pgroth]
yolanda are you on the phone?
15:33:58 [bblfish]
you mean rdf/xml does not supprt named graphs. But it is in the semantics I believe (or else it would not be possible to do SPARQL)
15:34:03 [hhalpin]
yolanda: we have decided not to endorse a particular solution
15:34:11 [hhalpin]
... we focussed on a few requirements
15:34:17 [hhalpin]
... in particular
15:34:21 [hhalpin]
... 3 major issues
15:34:27 [hhalpin]
... 1) content of what you are presenting
15:34:35 [hhalpin]
... 2) how do you manage provenance
15:34:46 [cperey]
what about trust of the source of provenance?
15:34:47 [hhalpin]
... 3) how do you use provenance (merging it)
15:35:03 [mischat]
bblfish: n3 is not a rec as far as i am aware
15:35:03 [mischat]
?
15:35:05 [FabGandon]
+1 to look at the many possibilities existing in the literature
15:35:07 [mischat]
rdf/xml is
15:35:15 [bblfish]
Also I wonder if named graphs is needed on the publication side. If you want to say that something was written by someone you can say it quite easily <http://bblfish.net/> a foaf:HomePage; dc:created <http://bblfish.net/poeple/henry/card#me> .
15:35:33 [cperey]
q+
15:35:33 [hhalpin]
... we would be able to refer to groups and unions of triples
15:35:42 [hhalpin]
... and tell whether or not two entities are the same or not
15:35:52 [hhalpin]
... we also need to support evolution
15:35:57 [hhalpin]
... as any artifact will change over time
15:36:14 [hhalpin]
... this comes up in the retraction of tweets
15:36:15 [FabGandon]
bblfish: RDF model doesn't have named graphs, RDF/XML does not have a syntax for that (as a matter of fact) only SPARQL has GRAPH and source primitives
15:36:19 [hhalpin]
... the nature of the twitter
15:36:32 [hhalpin]
... including any transforms of content in republishing
15:36:44 [hhalpin]
... the last requirement is the support for entailment
15:36:57 [hhalpin]
... some things you can't assert
15:37:03 [bblfish]
the rdf semantics document speaks about graphs, merging them, etc… The rdf/xml syntax has a restriction, but that is something else
15:37:08 [mischat]
thanks FabGandon, and yes am aware of your namedgraph paper
15:37:21 [hhalpin]
... so you could try to associate if someone like hhalpin said something, he is a w3c fellow, etc.
15:37:28 [hhalpin]
... these are the three requirements
15:37:36 [hhalpin]
... the two requirements that seemed relevant to baseline RDF
15:37:41 [hhalpin]
... one needs to make provenance assertions
15:37:49 [hhalpin]
... to publish a subset
15:37:52 [hhalpin]
... of provenance records
15:37:58 [hhalpin]
... I don't want to publish my name
15:38:15 [hhalpin]
... but I don't mind publishing some characteristics, a position, an affliation, an insitution I'm at.
15:38:25 [hhalpin]
... fifth requirement is querying
15:38:55 [hhalpin]
... we want to bring up these issues.
15:39:07 [bblfish]
btw, for change over time, one could use the atom ontology http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/AtomOwl.html
15:39:08 [hhalpin]
... so we did refer to particular solutions, such as named graphs
15:39:12 [FabGandon]
mischat: one of the scenarios comes from Social Web and is called "Named graphs to embody the social act of tagging"
15:39:19 [hhalpin]
mischat: this is similar to what we've been talking about in the Social Web XG
15:39:20 [DKA]
q?
15:39:34 [DKA]
ack hh
15:39:46 [mischat]
he is
15:40:49 [paul]
I'm on the line now
15:40:55 [hhalpin]
so now I'll summarize that
15:41:03 [hhalpin]
oh, perhaps you should speak up now paul!
15:41:07 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
15:41:07 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
15:41:11 [hhalpin]
Three main identity technologies we've been looking at
15:41:19 [DKA]
q?
15:41:43 [hhalpin]
1) OpenID - see notes from meeting with Dick Hardt, still seems like things may be revised in vNext.
15:42:10 [hhalpin]
2) WebID - using SSL plus FOAF, see notes from meeting with Henry Story
15:42:24 [hhalpin]
3) Infocards - see work on Higgins project, no meeting with them yet, but hoping to get one soon!
15:42:30 [mischat]
Thomas and our chair Dan are hosting a privacy related workshop in london http://www.w3.org/2010/api-privacy-ws/
15:42:51 [hhalpin]
cperey: how do you manage trust
15:42:59 [hhalpin]
cperey: verify it, source it, etc.
15:43:15 [hhalpin]
yolanda: there is one underlying model of provenance
15:43:23 [hhalpin]
... possibly a very long chain, following all these tweets and blogs
15:43:29 [hhalpin]
... around all these tweets and blogs
15:43:35 [mischat]
http://www.eclipse.org/higgins/
15:43:42 [DKA]
Also note that the OneSocialWeb/XMPP work represents another model for identity...
15:43:50 [mischat]
higgin's project ^^ ?
15:43:55 [hhalpin]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgins_project
15:44:09 [hhalpin]
... from our work, we seem to think trust is very subjective
15:44:16 [cperey]
trust is subjective, a judgement, about if an entity is reliable, etc
15:44:17 [hhalpin]
... if a particular entity or assertion is reliable/believable
15:44:29 [hhalpin]
yolanda: so we think of trust as one of the uses of provenance
15:44:36 [hhalpin]
... so we have separated the scope of our group
15:45:05 [hhalpin]
... and so we hope that many different approaches (like using social nets, algorithms) to derive and propagate trust over adequate provenance information.
15:45:15 [hhalpin]
... whether or not we trust particular provenance assertions
15:45:22 [hhalpin]
... is where signatures and authentication come in.
15:45:32 [DKA]
q?
15:45:38 [hhalpin]
(notes that otherwise things get circular, i.e. we have to trust provenance in order to build trust!)
15:45:44 [hhalpin]
(so we need some grounding out...)
15:45:57 [cperey]
I took my turn :-)
15:45:57 [hhalpin]
fabien: happy to hear the provenance xg that there are many options
15:46:10 [hhalpin]
... so we are happy to see group wants to keep option open
15:46:19 [hhalpin]
... such as pat hayes' surface proposal, an alternative to named graphs
15:46:27 [mischat]
http://eclipse.org/higgins/ Higgins projects : Personal Data Store (exciting), Identity Services, and Active Client
15:46:29 [hhalpin]
... as far as I'm concerned, we used the use-case
15:46:38 [hhalpin]
... of the social web xg in our paper
15:46:43 [hhalpin]
... so we want to embody the act of social tagging
15:46:50 [hhalpin]
... and we wanted to use named graphs in social tagging
15:47:06 [hhalpin]
(note that we also need to have a session discussing tagging, i.e. CommonTag and NiceTag work!)
15:47:15 [hhalpin]
paulgroth: we're a bit newer than the Social Web XG
15:47:24 [hhalpin]
... so we're just starting to look at technical space of work
15:47:25 [mischat]
http://iswc2009.semanticweb.org/wiki/index.php/ISWC_2009_Keynote/Pat_Hayes
15:47:38 [YolandaGil]
+1
15:47:39 [hhalpin]
... identity is a really important part of grounding out
15:47:55 [hhalpin]
q+
15:48:00 [DKA]
ack hh
15:48:03 [mischat]
?q
15:48:05 [DKA]
ack cp
15:48:32 [mischat]
paul: are you from the higgins project?
15:48:45 [mischat]
pgroth: = provenance xg
15:49:11 [DKA]
q?
15:49:28 [mischat]
zakim, who is making noise ?
15:49:42 [Zakim]
mischat, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (33%)
15:49:59 [bblfish]
can't hear harry anymore
15:50:04 [paul]
+q
15:50:15 [DKA]
ack paul
15:50:22 [mischat]
zakim, unmute paul
15:50:22 [Zakim]
sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to paul
15:50:49 [paul]
I talk, but nobody can hear me
15:50:55 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute ??P20
15:50:55 [Zakim]
??P20 should no longer be muted
15:50:58 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
15:50:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P1, +1.781.416.aaaa (muted), hhalpin, ??P12, DKA, MacTed (muted), yoshiaki, Yolanda, ??P20, cperey, melvster, ??P30, +0773779aadd, mischat (muted),
15:51:00 [danbri]
what happened?
15:51:00 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute aaaa
15:51:01 [Zakim]
... +1.617.324.aagg, FabGandon
15:51:02 [Zakim]
+1.781.416.aaaa should no longer be muted
15:51:06 [hhalpin]
?
15:51:09 [mischat]
hehe
15:51:23 [mischat]
yes
15:51:24 [bblfish]
ye
15:51:24 [hhalpin]
yes we can hear you!
15:51:32 [bblfish]
it was very interesting
15:51:39 [hhalpin]
sorry, there was a mute button on, due to keyboard clacking issues towards beginning of telecon.
15:51:45 [DKA]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:51:47 [hhalpin]
paul: the space is still evolving
15:51:56 [Zakim]
DKA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.781.416.aaaa (87%), ??P20 (30%)
15:51:56 [hhalpin]
... we are starting on OpenID vNext
15:52:02 [DKA]
zakim, aaaa is paul
15:52:02 [Zakim]
+paul; got it
15:52:07 [danbri]
http://www.sociallipstick.com/?p=239 is an interesting read, w.r.t. oauth2 as a foundation for openid2
15:52:12 [hhalpin]
... but of course WebID and FOAF stuff is less mainstream
15:52:12 [danbri]
s/2/ng/
15:52:14 [bblfish]
there's a train
15:52:26 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's making noise?
15:52:27 [mischat]
zakim, mute 1.781.416.aaaa
15:52:27 [Zakim]
sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to 1.781.416.aaaa
15:52:33 [bblfish]
that's the sound of foaf+ssl leaving the station :-)
15:52:37 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute aaaa
15:52:37 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aaaa
15:52:42 [Zakim]
hhalpin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P20 (67%)
15:52:51 [hhalpin]
Zakim, unmute aaaa
15:52:51 [Zakim]
sorry, hhalpin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to aaaa
15:52:59 [DKA]
zakim, unmute paul
15:52:59 [Zakim]
paul was not muted, DKA
15:53:11 [hhalpin]
DKA: Any perspective on XMPP-based identity out there?
15:53:17 [DKA]
zakim, mute ??p20
15:53:17 [Zakim]
??P20 should now be muted
15:53:19 [hhalpin]
Paul: it will be interesting to see for us
15:53:25 [hhalpin]
... what the Social Web XG figures out
15:53:31 [hhalpin]
... so we're trying to figure out
15:53:50 [hhalpin]
... from the space of current provenance work connects the existing social web technologies
15:53:59 [hhalpin]
... alot of our technology comes from different spaces
15:53:59 [paul]
-q
15:54:25 [hhalpin]
paulgroth: a lot of work from databases and workflows
15:54:30 [mischat]
q+
15:54:34 [hhalpin]
paul: I wish I had better news
15:54:43 [hhalpin]
... the identity community is struggling with its own internal fragmentation
15:55:01 [hhalpin]
... the general belief is that provenance and reputation have a pre-condition of reliable identity
15:55:10 [YolandaGil]
I agree!
15:55:12 [hhalpin]
... which I think is consistent with what the provenance xg is saying
15:55:15 [mischat]
zakim, unmute me
15:55:15 [Zakim]
mischat should no longer be muted
15:55:18 [mischat]
?q
15:55:23 [DKA]
ack misc
15:56:16 [DKA]
q?
15:56:59 [hhalpin]
paulgroth: the ability to embed this data
15:57:05 [hhalpin]
... so we could embed it in header of image
15:57:09 [hhalpin]
... and the whole notion of signatures
15:57:14 [hhalpin]
... that is part of this story
15:57:27 [hhalpin]
... but we haven't actually finished this off
15:57:35 [hhalpin]
yolanda: the only thing I would want to say
15:57:54 [hhalpin]
... is that we've been trying to understand what different groups want
15:58:02 [hhalpin]
... so when we met with harry at WWW2010 conference
15:58:12 [hhalpin]
... there was some requirements that were new from the Social Web XG use-cases
15:58:23 [hhalpin]
... in particular, the deletion of records in a social networking site
15:58:26 [mischat]
hehe, and for reasoning :)
15:58:27 [hhalpin]
... and what that has to do with provenance
15:58:32 [cperey]
is there a problem with the bridge? or ...
15:58:37 [hhalpin]
+1 good point mischat
15:58:55 [cperey]
I"m back :-)
15:59:14 [hhalpin]
yolanda: there are aspects that we haven't considered.
16:00:44 [hhalpin]
... so if we hope to address all your requirements in our document
16:01:23 [hhalpin]
... all of us are very aware that we need to present solution-space, not just requirement-space
16:01:33 [cperey]
agree also that this applies to SWXG work!
16:02:03 [hhalpin]
mischat: the whole concept of reasoning
16:02:11 [hhalpin]
... there is this notion of inferred triples
16:02:24 [hhalpin]
... we don't do reasoning in our triple store as we update and delete data constantly
16:02:40 [hhalpin]
... does the XG deal with entailment/reasoning in dynamic knowledge-bases?
16:02:59 [hhalpin]
... should I be putting all my inferred triples in the ontology
16:03:25 [hhalpin]
yolanda: entailment is one of the big issues in the RDF next step papers
16:03:30 [hhalpin]
... absolutely definitely the case
16:03:37 [hhalpin]
... no record will be exhaustive or complete
16:03:59 [FabGandon]
q+ to ask about multiple provenances in reasonning
16:04:39 [Zakim]
-??P30
16:05:22 [DKA]
ack fab
16:05:22 [Zakim]
FabGandon, you wanted to ask about multiple provenances in reasonning
16:05:23 [mischat]
zakim, unmute me
16:05:25 [Zakim]
mischat was not muted, mischat
16:05:25 [Zakim]
-??P20
16:05:28 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
16:05:28 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
16:06:04 [mischat]
pgroth: ?
16:06:24 [Zakim]
-paul
16:06:33 [hhalpin]
FabienGandon: Can I combine provenance from multiple sources?
16:06:50 [mischat]
multiple personas online :)
16:07:04 [bblfish]
"Beatnik: Change your mind" a simple blog post I wrote about trust http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/beatnik_change_your_mind
16:07:23 [hhalpin]
yolanda: so different provenances from different repositories
16:07:43 [mischat]
yay
16:07:55 [mischat]
media standards trusts are looking at as far as i am aware
16:08:05 [mischat]
provenance is news is a dream
16:08:13 [mischat]
s/is new/in news/
16:08:38 [hhalpin]
Meeting Adjourned
16:08:40 [cperey]
thank you!
16:08:44 [pgroth]
yeah provenance in news is good
16:08:46 [mischat]
www.mediastandardstrust.org/projects.aspx
16:08:48 [pgroth]
thanks everyone
16:08:48 [hhalpin]
Next call - final report narrative!!
16:08:53 [hhalpin]
trackbot, end meeting
16:08:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:08:53 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.781.416.aaaa, hhalpin, +0774811aabb, DKA, MacTed, yoshiaki, Yolanda, melvster, cperey, +0773779aadd, +0752818aaee, mischat,
16:08:53 [bblfish]
thanks
16:08:54 [mischat]
bye bye pgroth
16:08:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:08:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
16:08:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:08:55 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
16:08:57 [Zakim]
... +1.617.324.aagg, FabGandon, paul
16:08:59 [Zakim]
-??P1