13:42:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
13:42:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/10-svg-irc
13:42:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:42:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
13:42:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
13:42:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 48 minutes
13:42:47 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
13:42:47 <trackbot> Date: 10 May 2010
14:24:02 <ed> ed has joined #svg
14:29:21 <ed> trackbot, start telcon
14:29:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:29:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
14:29:25 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:29:26 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
14:29:26 <trackbot> Date: 10 May 2010
14:30:58 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()10:30AM has now started
14:31:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:31:16 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
14:31:16 <Zakim> +ed; got it
14:32:23 <Zakim> +ChrisL
14:33:24 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010AprJun/0063.html
14:34:57 <Zakim> +??P48
14:35:06 <anthony> Zakim, ??P48 i sme
14:35:06 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P48 i sme', anthony
14:35:12 <anthony> Zakim, ??P48 is me
14:35:12 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
14:37:39 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:38:21 <patrickd> patrickd has joined #svg
14:39:13 <patrickd> scribenick: patrickd
14:39:33 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010AprJun/0063.html
14:39:48 <ChrisL> Topic: Use and CSS selectors
14:40:01 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/ua-tests/struct-use-hover.svg
14:42:17 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010May/0006.html
14:42:27 <patrickd> patrickd: in terms of the <use> and css selectors, we see that in the test each browser has a different behavior
14:42:40 <patrickd> ed: spec says that use instances are not part of the DOM tree
14:42:57 <patrickd> ed: Would be OK with going with something in SVG 2.0 specification
14:43:44 <patrickd> CSS2 selectors can be applied to the  
14:43:44 <patrickd> original (i.e., referenced) elements because they are part of the formal  
14:43:44 <patrickd> document structure. CSS2 selectors cannot be applied to the (conceptually)  
14:43:44 <patrickd> cloned DOM tree because its contents are not part of the formal document  
14:43:44 <patrickd> structure.
14:43:58 <patrickd> patrickd: that part of spec, indicates that none of the styles should apply to use instances
14:44:08 <patrickd> patrickd: which means that webkit has it right
14:44:35 <patrickd> ed: webskit just appears to have some refresh bugs perhaps
14:46:24 <patrickd> ed: Think opera has it implemented as expected; Opera is applied to the original but not the shadow instances
14:46:42 <patrickd> ChrisL: Shadow tree is not addressable through selectors
14:47:03 <ed> s/as expected/as it's specced in SVG 1.1/
14:47:07 <patrickd> ChrisL: Firefix expands things into place; so things that are there should not be there
14:48:09 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:48:26 <jwatt> jwatt has joined #svg
14:48:43 <jwatt> Zakim, who's on the call?
14:48:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, ChrisL, anthony, [Microsoft], [IPcaller]
14:48:54 <patrickd> ed: use can sometimes propegate the style into the use tree
14:48:57 <jwatt> Zakim, IP is me
14:48:57 <Zakim> sorry, jwatt, I do not recognize a party named 'IP'
14:49:07 <jwatt> Zakim, IPcaller is me
14:49:07 <Zakim> +jwatt; got it
14:50:10 <patrickd> patrickd: where would we go with this in SVG 2.0
14:50:27 <patrickd> ed: Add new kind of <use> element, or add attributes controlling whether or not it applies to <use> or shadow trees
14:51:11 <patrickd> ChrisL: It's a change to the underlying model; if the DOM is there vs. the DOM is not there.
14:51:38 <patrickd> ChrisL: Current model is that you cannot select shadow tree elements; it sounds like extra selectors 
14:51:42 <patrickd> patrickd: Or a slector synta
14:53:32 <patrickd> patrickd: What is this for?
14:54:05 <patrickd> ChrisL: A lot of grahics libraries have symbol libraries; the decision was made that we weren't going to have pre-built symbols. This was the basic use case.  Re-usable stuff
14:54:43 <patrickd> ChrisL: The thing that it misses; there is only one instance in the document tree; you can change the original copy and all of them change, e.g.
14:55:11 <patrickd> ChrisL: But you can't but a 'handler' on an instance.
14:55:20 <patrickd> ChrisL: But these are SVG 2.0 changes
14:55:52 <patrickd> patrickd: How you fix this in SVG 2.0 without backwards compatability
14:56:22 <patrickd> ChrisL: Introcue new element, replaced in place as reference instead of shadowed.
14:57:04 <patrickd> ChrisL: A little bit like using XSLT or XBL in place. 
14:57:22 <patrickd> patrickd: What I will do is update that test to reflect the spec'd behavior
14:58:52 <ed> ISSUE-2323?
14:58:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-2323 -- Consider aligning SVG*List interfaces with other arraylike types -- RAISED
14:58:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2323
14:59:00 <ChrisL> Topic; ISSUE-2323
14:59:40 <patrickd> ed: Was going over making tests for SVGElementInstance and found some minor inconsistencies on how we define our list interfaces
14:59:53 <patrickd> ed: Ify you compare them to the array syntax in ecma script, we differ quite a bit
15:00:27 <patrickd> ed: Some of our list interfaces use getItem; while nodeList you use item; which also allows you to use the array interface
15:00:38 <patrickd> ChrisL: Did this come across because ecmascript came later?
15:01:03 <ChrisL> s/ecma/we specified it in IDL and then ecma/
15:01:04 <patrickd> ed: Probably some historic reason for it.  Just noticed the SVGElementantInstanceList is the same as NodeList, but all others use getItem.
15:01:37 <patrickd> ed: No length accessor; etc; there is the number of items; it makes it harder to use 
15:01:59 <patrickd> ed: Would like to align this with nodeLists for SVG 2.0 and we alias the numberOfItems property with length
15:02:27 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
15:02:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ed, ChrisL, anthony, [Microsoft], jwatt
15:02:46 <ChrisL> zakim, Microsoft holds Patrick
15:02:46 <Zakim> +Patrick; got it
15:03:19 <patrickd> patrickd: So make them consistent within and with ecmascript array
15:03:33 <patrickd> ed: Do we want to keep list interfaces is the follow on question
15:04:03 <patrickd> ed: we do have code that will support this and we could put in place pretty fast
15:04:12 <patrickd> ChrisL: Do you see this a problem
15:04:27 <patrickd> anthony: It's a nightmare; I have used this many times in the wrong way
15:04:41 <ed> s/anthony/JW/
15:07:22 <patrickd> patrickd: What does it mean to have a change vs. a new feature in SVG 2.0?
15:07:44 <patrickd> ChrisL: If it is spec'd accordingly, then both versions will work but it is a higher cost implementing
15:08:08 <patrickd> patrickd: So because you want to have it work both ways, there may be a higher cost to implement it
15:09:34 <patrickd> patrickd: On the general subject of SVG 2.0, what to do about version number? Does this control behavior?
15:09:48 <patrickd> ChrisL: We tentatlively tried it but then backed off
15:11:54 <ChrisL> hasFeature is sort-of great
15:12:05 <patrickd> ed: hasFeature is not really working well?
15:12:28 <patrickd> ed: There are some slight differences in how far an implementation actually implement it
15:12:59 <patrickd> ChrisL: Granularity are too coarse and too fine, differently across browsers
15:13:19 <patrickd> ed: e.g. Firefox notes that they do not support filters, but the hasFeature does not indicate that they do
15:13:35 <patrickd> jwatt: Perhaps we should change that and just state that it's supported
15:13:52 <ed> s/Firefox notes that they do not/Firefox does/
15:13:53 <patrickd> jwatt: Hard to tell when the spec doesn't say or even give advice on hasFeature 
15:14:57 <patrickd> ed: In my experience, when I want to see if something works, I want to check DOM interface existance
15:15:06 <patrickd> ed: hasFeature isn't reliable enough
15:15:11 <patrickd> patrickd: But what about hasFeature with <switch>
15:16:39 <patrickd> patrickd: HTML should potentially incorporate this'
15:18:05 <patrickd> patrickd: we need to have the high level SVG 2.0 vision and the high level backward compatability story first
15:19:07 <patrickd> ed: People will run into more pain without having this new feature than they would otherwise
15:19:43 <patrickd> patrickd: I disagree; because if they discover that it works one way in one browser, they will still have to code it differently for the other browser anyway
15:20:50 <patrickd> ed: In a way you are right; there will be libraries that cover that small difference
15:21:16 <patrickd> ed: I think going forward, it will be better to make everything consistent. It doesn't change what's there, it just adds new stuff.
15:24:15 <patrickd> ChrisL: I think you need to write a whitepaper on future proofing and backward compat principles
15:25:37 <patrickd> jwatt: Our biggest problem on identifying change impact, is we don't have any indication of how much it is use on the web
15:25:56 <patrickd> jwatt: It would be great if MIcrosoft had a method of geting information about usage
15:26:49 <patrickd> patrickd: It would seem that we could contribute there, but we are caught with limitted SVG assets today, vs. what we will see in a year or so
15:28:24 <patrickd> ed: Opera's system should still be available as well
15:30:51 <f1lt3r> f1lt3r has joined #svg
15:34:08 <patrickd> action: patrickd: Write a whitepaper on versioning, future proofing, backward compatability and SVG 2.0
15:34:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2782 - Write a whitepaper on versioning, future proofing, backward compatability and SVG 2.0 [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-05-17].
15:34:53 <patrickd> ed: Still would like to make the change
15:35:20 <patrickd> action: ed: Write up new list interface proposal and submit test cases for SVG 2.0
15:35:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2783 - Write up new list interface proposal and submit test cases for SVG 2.0 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-05-17].
15:35:48 <ChrisL> Topic: second edition updates
15:35:51 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_1.1F2
15:37:04 <patrickd> patrickd: I will review the struct-dom tests on the wiki
15:37:17 <patrickd> ed: Anthony, do we have new tests that you reviewed?
15:37:22 <ed> Zakim, who's here?
15:37:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, ChrisL, anthony, [Microsoft], jwatt
15:37:23 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Patrick
15:37:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see f1lt3r, jwatt, patrickd, ed, Zakim, RRSAgent, ChrisL, karl, shepazu, ed_work, anthony, trackbot
15:37:37 <ChrisL> anthony?
15:38:17 <ed> shapes-polyline-02-t.svg
15:38:18 <ChrisL> shapes-polygon-02-t.svg
15:38:30 <ChrisL> shapes-grammar01-f.svg
15:39:10 <ChrisL> shapes-grammar01-f.svg passes in batik, opera - fails in firefox
15:39:21 <ChrisL> new test in the last couple of hours
15:39:42 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/shapes-grammar01-f.svg
15:41:16 <patrickd> patrickd: I will review this one as well
15:41:24 <patrickd> ed: Can we mark the reviewed as accepted?
15:41:28 <patrickd> ChrisL: Yes, I will do it now
15:41:55 <patrickd> ChrisL: Those need to get added to the tests, but not the errata. 
15:43:07 <patrickd> ChrisL: I proposed some wording in email.  Link incoming
15:43:28 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2010AprJun/0064.html
15:45:30 <patrickd> patrickd: All agreed that new language around contentTypeStyle is good, so chrisl will check in
15:45:44 <ChrisL> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/styling-elem-02-b.svg
15:48:16 <patrickd> ChrisL: Might be easier to remove the test
15:48:22 <patrickd> patrickd: I say remove i
15:48:52 <ChrisL> resolved: remove styling-elem-02-b.svg
15:52:24 <patrickd> ed: New Topic semi-colon separator
15:52:30 <ed> http://www.w3.org/mid/201005061734.12398.Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de
15:54:35 <patrickd> ed: Can SVGFragmentIdentifiers be animated with using semi-column without esacping it
15:55:02 <patrickd> ChrisL: Should modify this such that animated semi-color separated attributes required to be escaped
15:55:20 <patrickd> ed: We should get a proper test case for it
15:58:15 <patrickd> action: ed: Create Test Case for Animating SVGFragmentIdentifier
15:58:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2784 - Create Test Case for Animating SVGFragmentIdentifier [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-05-17].
15:59:25 <ChrisL> escape the ; with an NCR and use the same test we use for viewbox meet and slice
16:00:08 <patrickd> patrickd: Cancelling SVG WG Telecon because of holidays
16:01:38 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:01:40 <Zakim> -jwatt
16:01:41 <Zakim> -ed
16:01:42 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:01:49 <Zakim> -anthony
16:01:51 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()10:30AM has ended
16:01:52 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, ChrisL, anthony, jwatt, Patrick
16:02:30 <ChrisL> patrick are you ok witj making minutes and sending them out?
16:03:05 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/10-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
16:03:28 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
16:03:30 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/10-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
16:05:03 <ChrisL> patrick, i sent out the minutes
16:05:12 <ChrisL> rrsagent, bye
16:05:12 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/10-svg-actions.rdf :
16:05:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: patrickd: Write a whitepaper on versioning, future proofing, backward compatability and SVG 2.0 [1]
16:05:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/10-svg-irc#T15-34-08
16:05:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ed: Write up new list interface proposal and submit test cases for SVG 2.0 [2]
16:05:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/10-svg-irc#T15-35-20
16:05:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ed: Create Test Case for Animating SVGFragmentIdentifier [3]
16:05:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/05/10-svg-irc#T15-58-15
16:05:21 <ChrisL> zakim, bye
16:05:21 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg