13:51:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
13:51:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/05-webfonts-irc
13:51:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:51:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
13:51:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
13:51:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:51:57 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
13:51:57 <trackbot> Date: 05 May 2010
13:52:09 <ChrisL> zakim, this will be font
13:52:09 <Zakim> ok, ChrisL; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
13:52:40 <ChrisL> scribe: Chris
13:52:47 <ChrisL> ScribeNick: ChrisL
13:52:54 <ChrisL> Chair: Vlad
13:53:43 <ChrisL> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010May/0028.html
13:53:56 <ChrisL> trackbot, status
13:56:10 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has now started
13:56:18 <Zakim> + +31.70.360.aaaa
13:56:50 <jdaggett> heh
13:56:55 <Zakim> +ChrisL
13:57:03 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
13:57:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.70.360.aaaa, ChrisL
13:57:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, sylvaing, ChrisL, erik, jdaggett, trackbot
13:57:26 <Zakim> + +1.443.895.aabb
13:57:30 <ChrisL> zakim, +31 is Erik
13:57:30 <Zakim> +Erik; got it
13:57:41 <Zakim> +??P22
13:57:51 <ChrisL> zakim, +1 is Tal
13:57:51 <Zakim> +Tal; got it
13:58:04 <jdaggett> zakim, P22 is jdaggett
13:58:04 <Zakim> sorry, jdaggett, I do not recognize a party named 'P22'
13:58:07 <tal_> tal_ has joined #webfonts
13:58:07 <ChrisL> zakim, ??P22 is John
13:58:07 <Zakim> +John; got it
13:58:16 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
13:58:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Erik, ChrisL, Tal, John
13:58:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see tal_, Zakim, RRSAgent, sylvaing, ChrisL, erik, jdaggett, trackbot
13:58:23 <Zakim> +sylvaing
13:58:29 <jdaggett> Zakim, John is jdaggett
13:58:29 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
13:58:45 <Zakim> + +1.978.790.aacc
13:58:54 <jfkthame> jfkthame has joined #webfonts
13:58:57 <ChrisL> zakim, +1 is Vlad
13:58:57 <Zakim> +Vlad; got it
13:59:22 <tiro_j> tiro_j has joined #webfonts
14:00:00 <ChrisL> The call-in telephone bridge details:
14:00:00 <ChrisL> +1.617.761.6200 (Boston) or
14:00:00 <ChrisL> +33.4.89.06.34.99 (Nice) or
14:00:00 <ChrisL> +44.117.370.6152 (Bristol)
14:00:00 <ChrisL> conference code 3668 ("FONT")
14:00:12 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
14:00:14 <Zakim> + +0845397aadd
14:00:24 <vlad> vlad has joined #webfonts
14:00:25 <ChrisL> ChrisL has changed the topic to: Zakim, code 3668 (FONT)
14:00:46 <jdaggett> m+
14:00:49 <jfkthame> 0845397... is jfkthame
14:00:52 <ChrisL> zakim, +08 is Jonothan
14:00:52 <Zakim> +Jonothan; got it
14:00:57 <tabatkins> tabatkins has joined #webfonts
14:01:11 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
14:01:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Erik, ChrisL, Tal, jdaggett, sylvaing, Vlad, TabAtkins, Jonothan
14:01:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see tabatkins, vlad, tiro_j, jfkthame, tal_, Zakim, RRSAgent, sylvaing, ChrisL, erik, jdaggett, trackbot
14:01:27 <jfkthame> btw, jonothan is really spelled "jonathan" :)
14:01:29 <Zakim> + +1.250.668.aaee
14:01:48 <Zakim> + +1.510.816.aaff
14:01:57 <ChrisL> zakim, Jonothan is Jonathan
14:01:57 <Zakim> +Jonathan; got it
14:02:09 <jfkthame> n/p
14:02:39 <ChrisL> zakim, +1.510 is Christopher
14:02:39 <Zakim> +Christopher; got it
14:02:48 <Zakim> + +1.425.213.aagg
14:03:08 <jdaggett> yes, that's why jdaggett is better...
14:03:17 <ChrisL> zakim,  +1.250 is JohnH
14:03:17 <Zakim> +JohnH; got it
14:03:28 <ChrisL> zakim, John is jdaggett
14:03:28 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
14:03:34 <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy?
14:03:34 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
14:03:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Erik, ChrisL, Tal, jdaggett, sylvaing, Vlad, TabAtkins, Jonathan, jdaggett.a, Christopher, +1.425.213.aagg
14:03:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see tabatkins, vlad, tiro_j, jfkthame, tal_, Zakim, RRSAgent, sylvaing, ChrisL, erik, jdaggett, trackbot
14:03:40 <cslye> cslye has joined #webfonts
14:03:47 <Zakim> jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jdaggett.a (15%), +1.425.213.aagg (29%)
14:04:04 <ChrisL> zakim, +1.425 is Sergey
14:04:06 <Zakim> +Sergey; got it
14:04:10 <ChrisL> zakim, mute Sergey
14:04:10 <Zakim> Sergey should now be muted
14:05:59 <ChrisL> Topic: Administrivia
14:06:09 <ChrisL> Chris explains the bots, a little
14:06:30 <ChrisL> Vlad: welcome everyone
14:06:44 <ChrisL> ... good to have the group start
14:07:12 <ChrisL> Topic: Develop and approve the work plan
14:07:21 <ChrisL> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Apr/0019.html
14:07:47 <ChrisL> Vlad: once we have a workplan agreed we can start. Any suggestions?
14:08:00 <ChrisL> Chris: Looks good
14:08:32 <ChrisL> Christopher: new to this and mainly listening right now
14:09:12 <ChrisL> Vlad: so first item was to Discuss and finalize the WOFF specification
14:09:38 <ChrisL> ... run through the text, review text for areas of improvement eg more future proof
14:09:54 <ChrisL> ... whether the metasdata definition is sufficient
14:10:11 <ChrisL> ... for the end users and exposable by the user agents
14:10:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:10:53 <ChrisL> Chris: also good to identify all the conformance statements
14:11:15 <ChrisL> zakim, ip is Howcome
14:11:15 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'ip'
14:11:38 <ChrisL> zakim, [IPcaller] is Howcome
14:11:38 <Zakim> +Howcome; got it
14:12:42 <Zakim> -Sergey
14:13:22 <Zakim> +Sergey
14:13:44 <tabatkins> Zakim, mute Sergey
14:13:44 <Zakim> Sergey should now be muted
14:13:45 <ChrisL> zakim, mute Sergey
14:13:45 <Zakim> Sergey was already muted, ChrisL
14:14:35 <ChrisL> Christopher: Is WOFF web only? Meaning of embedding bits. Keeping metadata in sync
14:15:09 <ChrisL> Vlad: Not up to our group to make WOFF web only. No significant power to control how it is used
14:15:55 <jdaggett> EPUB
14:16:16 <vlad> ePub developed by IDPF
14:16:18 <ChrisL> Vlad: EPUB uses HTML and CSS it could use WOFF as well
14:17:20 <ChrisL> Vlad: main focus is to make it suitable for the Web use. If its used elsewhere that is out of scope
14:17:50 <ChrisL> Jonathan: EPUB has no benefit to use WOFF. Its a zip file so just add a OT file to the zip
14:18:08 <ChrisL> Christopher: Informational metadata could be useful though
14:18:26 <ChrisL> Joanathan: guess that is true but could go in ePUB metadata as well
14:19:13 <ChrisL> Chris: license agreement may be different for OT and WOFF
14:19:25 <ChrisL> Jonathan: ePub is neither print nor Web really
14:19:47 <ChrisL> Vlad: Its an exampl eof Web tech being used in non-Web contexts. Just an example
14:20:05 <ChrisL> Sylvain: does ePub require all resources to be local?
14:20:35 <ChrisL> Vlad: reasonable to assume any connected device will get online resources
14:21:28 <ChrisL> Vlad: bottom line, we make WOFF to be used on the Web and if it gets used elsewhere we can't really control that
14:22:23 <ChrisL> Chris: what was the point about metadata in sync?
14:23:08 <ChrisL> Christopher: OT has tables and information, some people were talking about duplicating some of that in the metadata. Wasn't sure if that should be required to sync with OT table data
14:23:40 <ChrisL> Tal: Talked about this a lot when writing spec and came up with use cases where the dayta would not be in sync
14:23:56 <ChrisL> ... eg a type service that adds a different license
14:25:00 <ChrisL> Vlad: fonts contributed by individual typographers and the license reflects the EULA under which it was sold, so the vendor info goes to the foundry selling it not the designer
14:25:34 <ChrisL> Christopher: agree that there are cases where they would not be in sync
14:26:39 <ChrisL> Vlad: extended metadata, no real control on what goes in there so its hard to mandate as its extensible by design
14:27:20 <ChrisL> Vlad: embedding bits are a bone of contention, no good understanding on how they apply to different scenarios
14:27:58 <ChrisL> JohnH: Issue with embedding bits in OS/2 table wrt webfonts came out of EOT which made an explicit association
14:28:12 <ChrisL> ... and the tools looked at the embedding bits for permission to make EOT
14:28:48 <ChrisL> ... in the 10 year period between EOT and now, the use of embedding bits has become much more focussed on PDF. Foundries see them in that way
14:29:04 <ChrisL> ... which does not reflect licensing for web use
14:29:35 <ChrisL> ... so use of embedding bits gives the wrong impression to customers. Can be helped by better metadata and clearer licenses
14:29:56 <ChrisL> ... should we make explicit that embedding bits are not relevant to WOFF
14:30:14 <ChrisL> ... most borowsers than link to raw OT ignore embedding bits
14:30:30 <ChrisL> .. got impression from Si Daniels that Microsoft not so keen on that
14:31:09 <ChrisL> Vlad: Two major points, one that embeddingbits should have no impact on usrr agents, assume the content creator read the license.
14:31:22 <ChrisL> ... no need for UA to doubt user intention
14:32:08 <ChrisL> ... seconfd point is that embedding is an indication of what is setby the license, so its up tothe author to check the license
14:32:37 <ChrisL> ... differnet for static content or for user editable content
14:33:01 <ChrisL> ... should be informative not normative
14:33:42 <ChrisL> ... its toolate to look at the embedding bits once the font has been served
14:34:07 <ChrisL> JohnH; Agreed, its mainly to clarify the situation and direct people at EULA not the embedding bits
14:34:30 <ChrisL> ... should tools for creating WOGFF look at these, i wou;d argue not
14:34:48 <ChrisL> ... also the reference to document embedding is not clear in the OT spec
14:34:59 <tabatkins> zakim, who is noisy?
14:35:03 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute sergey
14:35:03 <Zakim> Sergey should no longer be muted
14:35:09 <Zakim> tabatkins, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Vlad (50%)
14:35:34 <ChrisL> Christopher: main concern is tool s that generate woff
14:35:37 <Zakim> -Vlad
14:35:39 <ChrisL> zakim, mute vlad
14:35:39 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not know which phone connection belongs to vlad
14:36:14 <ChrisL> Christopher: sounds like we all agree that user agents ignore embedding bits, so should we put it in the WOFF spec
14:36:26 <ChrisL> Jonathan: (scribe missed)
14:36:40 <Zakim> +Vlad
14:36:45 <ChrisL> JohnH: Si does not believe the OT spec needs to be changed here
14:37:05 <ChrisL> .. believes embedding does not count document serving.
14:37:26 <ChrisL> Chris: Is the ISO OFF spec clearer?
14:37:57 <ChrisL> (apparently its is identical)
14:38:26 <ChrisL> Vlad: getting back to the workplan at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Apr/0019.html
14:38:58 <ChrisL> ... we can of course discuss the technical details, but later
14:39:30 <ChrisL> ... including conformance and how it impacts same-origin 
14:39:52 <ChrisL> ... active discussion on that point on the mailing list
14:40:05 <ChrisL> JohnH: Is any draft outline of the conformance spec yet?
14:40:12 <ChrisL> Vlad: Its ahead of us
14:40:34 <ChrisL> ... some items in the WOFF spec that indicate conformance
14:41:00 <ChrisL> JohnH: Agree with Chris to identify conformance in whats expected of user agents
14:42:07 <ChrisL> Vlad: agreed, and also suggest we look at any optional components to be sure we are not missing anything by making it optional which creates uncertainty . Prefer to avoid optional components as much as possible
14:43:37 <ChrisL> Chris: comments from mozilla on direction of referencing
14:43:54 <ChrisL> Vlad; also we will find spec changes by making tests
14:44:36 <ChrisL> JohnH: What are the factors that affect this?
14:44:40 <tabatkins> zakim, who is noisy?
14:44:54 <jfkthame> tabatkins: that'll be jdaggett's baby, i think!
14:44:57 <Zakim> tabatkins, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:45:07 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Not clear exactly what the issues are and how long CSS3 webfonts will take
14:45:07 <tabatkins> zakim, mute jdaggett
14:45:07 <Zakim> jdaggett should now be muted
14:45:15 <tabatkins> Sorry!
14:45:24 <tabatkins> zakim, unmute jdaggett
14:45:24 <Zakim> jdaggett should no longer be muted
14:46:47 <ChrisL> Chris: can we help move CSS3 fonts forward?
14:47:05 <ChrisL> jdagget:a  common web format that is cross browser clearly helps
14:47:57 <ChrisL> Vlad: one dependency, it would be good to see CSS3 Font mandate WOFF for example
14:48:11 <ChrisL> .. other than this any other dependencies?
14:48:50 <ChrisL> jdaggett: no, some of these are undecided. No dependency as such. But if WOFF is to be supported by all user agents
14:49:45 <ChrisL> Chris: dependency from the @font-face syntax
14:50:16 <ChrisL> jdaggett: some stuff in CSS2 @font-face is dropped
14:50:49 <ChrisL> vlad: WOFF tests should not test application of opentype layout features, outside scope
14:52:11 <ChrisL> Chris: (example of woff tools that drop important tables)
14:52:36 <ChrisL> jdaggett: think that is a transient bug in chrome, as the tables are difficult to validate
14:53:17 <ChrisL> vlad; agree, we are making the delivery format and the user agent will extract it and do something with it but at that point we are outside our scope
14:53:44 <Zakim> -Sergey
14:53:53 <ChrisL> JohnH: Having WOFF specified will lead to making solid test cases for CSS3. not sure how it relates to the conformance spec
14:54:35 <ChrisL> ... difficult to test fonts to look for cross browser compat as the services are doing PS to TT for example to serve as EOT so getting WOFF out there will be very helpful
14:54:43 <Zakim> +Sergey
14:54:59 <ChrisL> ... likely WOFF gets specced before CSS3 is done
14:55:33 <ChrisL> Vlad: getting to the top of the hour. 
14:55:45 <ChrisL> action; vlad draft something about embedding bits
14:56:09 <ChrisL> action: vlad to draft something about embedding bits
14:56:09 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - vlad
14:56:23 <ChrisL> trackbot, status?
14:56:32 <ChrisL> action: vladimir to draft something about embedding bits
14:56:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Draft something about embedding bits [on Vladimir Levantovsky - due 2010-05-12].
14:56:47 <ChrisL> action-1?
14:56:47 <trackbot> ACTION-1 -- Vladimir Levantovsky to draft something about embedding bits -- due 2010-05-12 -- OPEN
14:56:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/1
14:57:23 <ChrisL> Chris: (demonstrates treackbot etc)
14:58:40 <jdaggett> zakim, who is noisy?
14:58:53 <Zakim> jdaggett, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Vlad (41%), Sergey (95%), ChrisL (5%), TabAtkins (12%)
14:59:01 <tabatkins> zakim, mute sergey
14:59:01 <Zakim> Sergey should now be muted
15:00:01 <ChrisL> Chris: Have made a pubrules-compliant wrapper so first public working draft should be easy
15:00:11 <ChrisL> vlad: other action items?
15:00:40 <ChrisL> action: chris to put the action plan on the wiki
15:00:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Put the action plan on the wiki [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-05-12].
15:01:14 <ChrisL> Erik: My first w3 call - cellphones ok?
15:01:45 <ChrisL> Chris: yes if there is a quiet environment
15:02:05 <ChrisL> Vlad; Thanks for joining, see you next week, and on email
15:02:11 <ChrisL> adjourned
15:02:18 <Zakim> -jdaggett
15:02:19 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
15:02:20 <Zakim> -jdaggett.a
15:02:20 <Zakim> -Christopher
15:02:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +31.70.360.aaaa, ChrisL, +1.443.895.aabb, Erik, Tal, sylvaing, jdaggett, +1.978.790.aacc, Vlad, TabAtkins, +0845397aadd, +1.250.668.aaee,
15:02:23 <Zakim> ... +1.510.816.aaff, Jonathan, Christopher, +1.425.213.aagg, JohnH, Sergey, Howcome
15:02:24 <Zakim> -sylvaing
15:02:24 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
15:02:24 <Zakim> -Jonathan
15:02:26 <Zakim> -Erik
15:02:28 <Zakim> -Tal
15:02:30 <cslye> cslye has left #webfonts
15:02:33 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/05-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
15:02:34 <Zakim> -Vlad
15:02:35 <tabatkins> tabatkins has left #webfonts
15:02:36 <Zakim> -ChrisL
15:02:38 <Zakim> -Sergey
15:02:40 <Zakim> -Howcome
15:02:42 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended
15:02:44 <Zakim> Attendees were +31.70.360.aaaa, ChrisL, +1.443.895.aabb, Erik, Tal, sylvaing, jdaggett, +1.978.790.aacc, Vlad, TabAtkins, +0845397aadd, +1.250.668.aaee, +1.510.816.aaff, Jonathan,
15:02:47 <Zakim> ... Christopher, +1.425.213.aagg, JohnH, Sergey, Howcome
15:04:01 <jfkthame> jfkthame has left #webfonts
15:51:19 <sylvaing> sylvaing has left #webfonts
16:06:56 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #webfonts
17:07:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webfonts