16:33:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:33:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-irc
16:33:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:33:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:33:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:33:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
16:33:39 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:33:39 <trackbot> Date: 29 April 2010
16:44:35 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
16:48:31 <kford> kford has joined #ua
16:48:53 <kford> trackbot, start meeting
16:48:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:48:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:48:57 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
16:48:58 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:48:58 <trackbot> Date: 29 April 2010
16:49:57 <kford> Agenda+ pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
16:49:59 <kford> Agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/
16:50:00 <kford> Agenda+ Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more)
16:50:02 <kford> Agenda+ Comments on last public working draft
16:50:03 <kford> Agenda+ Reminder about mail to list for action items -  please include action item numbers
16:50:05 <kford> Agenda+ HTML 5 and the user agent 
16:50:30 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
16:50:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
16:56:29 <kford> Chair: Jim_Allan_Kelly_Ford
16:56:44 <kford> Regrets:Simon
16:58:11 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
16:59:18 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:59:25 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
16:59:47 <kford> zakim, code?
16:59:47 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kford
17:00:10 <Zakim> +Greg
17:00:14 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:00:23 <kford> zakim, microsoft is kford
17:00:23 <Zakim> +kford; got it
17:01:02 <kford> /msg allanj do you want to drive today?
17:01:17 <Zakim> +??P4
17:01:27 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:01:57 <patrickhlauke> patrickhlauke has joined #ua
17:03:39 <AllanJ> zakim, ?P4 is really patricklauke
17:03:39 <Zakim> sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '?P4'
17:03:50 <AllanJ> zakim, ??P4 is really patricklauke
17:03:50 <Zakim> +patricklauke; got it
17:04:39 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
17:04:53 <kford> Scribe: kford
17:05:06 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
17:05:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Greg, kford, patricklauke, Jeanne
17:05:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see patrickhlauke, Greg, kford, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, trackbot
17:05:22 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda?
17:05:22 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:05:24 <Zakim> 1. pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [from kford]
17:05:27 <Zakim> 2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:05:27 <kford> zakim, take up item 1
17:05:29 <Zakim> 3. Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more) [from kford]
17:05:32 <Zakim> 4. Comments on last public working draft [from kford]
17:05:35 <Zakim> 5. Reminder about mail to list for action items -  please include action item numbers [from kford]
17:05:37 <Zakim> 6. HTML 5 and the user agent [from kford]
17:05:39 <Zakim> agendum 1. "pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open" taken up [from kford]
17:06:47 <kford> Group reviewing open action items.
17:07:14 <kford> JA: Jeanne you have a mess of these related to getting text in the document.,
17:07:28 <kford> JS: I have some notes.
17:07:38 <kford> JS: I need someone else to take 314.
17:08:20 <kford> Group discussing what action 314 is about.
17:08:38 <kford> GL: There are several ways to handle.  We can put exceptions, scope each SC.
17:08:58 <AllanJ> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0077.html
17:09:19 <kford> GL: Or we can put some general exceptions in the conformance section. Gave example of device not having a keyboard.
17:10:30 <Zakim> + +1.617.325.aaaa
17:10:55 <AllanJ> zakim, aaaa is really kimpatch
17:10:55 <Zakim> +kimpatch; got it
17:11:12 <kford> Group continues to review history of action 314.
17:11:22 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
17:11:24 <jeanne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/
17:11:51 <AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010AprJun/0019.html
17:12:07 <Zakim> +??P6
17:12:41 <AllanJ> zakim, ??P6 is really mhakkenin
17:12:41 <Zakim> +mhakkenin; got it
17:13:23 <kford> GL: Did we decide what direction we want to go.
17:14:06 <kford> Kelly taking action 314.
17:15:01 <kford> JS: For item 317 I couldn't find the files.
17:15:14 <mhakkinen> mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:15:43 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100426/
17:17:59 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/334
17:24:40 <AllanJ> discussing action-334 
17:25:12 <AllanJ> kp: google documents has 2 focus points, when collaborating on a document
17:25:40 <AllanJ> ... our focus definitions cover this
17:26:26 <AllanJ> gl: focus and writing cursor
17:26:33 <AllanJ> kp: will need to check
17:27:19 <AllanJ> mh: what does a screen mag know which cursor to follow
17:27:47 <AllanJ> ja: are the cursors programatically determinable
17:28:04 <AllanJ> ... how to switch between them.
17:28:37 <AllanJ> gl: doubt there is any a11y api that tracks 2 cursors.
17:29:07 <AllanJ> mh: perhaps aria. group collaborative documents
17:29:36 <AllanJ> gl: does aria have anything about cursors
17:29:55 <AllanJ> mh: not directly. should talk to them
17:31:23 <AllanJ> kp: multiple windows similar to multiple cursors
17:32:53 <KimPatch> look at all the focus references in the guidelines and it's necessary reconcile them with the new definitions
17:33:22 <AllanJ> action: kp to look at all the focus references in the guidelines and it's necessary reconcile them with the new definitions
17:33:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-381 - Look at all the focus references in the guidelines and it's necessary reconcile them with the new definitions [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-05-06].
17:36:03 <Greg> Accessibility API needs to handle multiple instances of input focus (for multiple keyboards and/or pointing devices), selection (e.g. multiple users during real-time collaboration) and highlighting.
17:39:03 <AllanJ> discussion of editing. if others can send JS stuff that can be pasted into the document it make the work go faster.
17:39:39 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda?
17:39:39 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:39:41 <Zakim> 1. pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [from kford]
17:39:44 <Zakim> 2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:39:46 <Zakim> 3. Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more) [from kford]
17:39:48 <Zakim> 4. Comments on last public working draft [from kford]
17:39:49 <Zakim> 5. Reminder about mail to list for action items -  please include action item numbers [from kford]
17:39:52 <Zakim> 6. HTML 5 and the user agent [from kford]
17:40:24 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker
17:40:25 <kford> /me I am back and *big* apologies for being gone so lone.
17:41:42 <kford> zakim, take up item 6
17:41:42 <Zakim> agendum 6. "HTML 5 and the user agent" taken up [from kford]
17:41:51 <kford> zakim, close item 1
17:41:51 <Zakim> agendum 1, pending action items http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open, closed
17:41:53 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:41:55 <Zakim> 2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:42:33 <mhakkinen> mark has to step away, may be back before end of call
17:42:35 <kford> JA: From an HTML 5 accessibility task force group, there is potential for us to have to add to our implamenting document.
17:42:37 <Zakim> -mhakkenin
17:43:15 <kford> JA: The HTML 5 spec has a lot of details on user agent behavior.  There is some              dcussion that this doesn't belong in the spec and might be more appropriate in other documents.
17:43:44 <kford> s/dscussion/discussion/
17:44:07 <kford> JA and GL clariffffffffycope.
17:44:27 <Zakim> -Jeanne
17:44:29 <kford> JA and GL clarify scope.
17:44:59 <kford> PL: Can we do some harmonization?
17:45:20 <kford> JA: Michael has a set of bugs that we think represent the issues.
17:45:31 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
17:45:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
17:45:59 <kford> JA: We should be getting the specific issues from Michael Cooper as a starting list.
17:47:26 <Zakim> + +1.508.877.aabb
17:47:41 <jeanne> zakim, aabb is really jeanne
17:47:41 <Zakim> +jeanne; got it
17:48:11 <AllanJ> UAWG should review materials from MCooper and report back about what we did
17:48:33 <kford> More clarification on this from the group.
17:48:49 <kford> PL: Can a spec go to last call if it reences other docus that are not done.
17:49:09 <kford> JS: If they reference a normative doc yes but not if it is justttttttttttttt ormative.
17:49:30 <kford> q+
17:52:15 <kford> q-
17:52:29 <kford> zakim, close item 6
17:52:29 <Zakim> agendum 6, HTML 5 and the user agent, closed
17:52:30 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:52:32 <Zakim> 2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:52:49 <kford> zakim, take up item 5
17:52:49 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Reminder about mail to list for action items -  please include action item numbers" taken up [from kford]
17:53:28 <kford> JA: Just a friendly reminder when you send e-mail to the list on your action items include the item number and such.
17:53:59 <kford> Syntax is Action- <number>, where number is the number of your action item.
17:54:07 <kford> zakim, close item 5
17:54:07 <Zakim> agendum 5, Reminder about mail to list for action items -  please include action item numbers, closed
17:54:09 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:54:11 <Zakim> 2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
17:54:18 <kford> zakim, take up item 4
17:54:18 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Comments on last public working draft" taken up [from kford]
17:54:36 <kford> JA: We put out a new working draft and asked for comments and didn't get any.
17:54:53 <kford> JA: JS believes most compnaies won't review until we are more stable.
17:55:15 <kford> JS: This is a problem that W3C is working on addressing in general.
17:55:48 <patrickhlauke> so is this the right time to already tap companies about it?
17:56:12 <AllanJ> KF: should we extend date or put out another working draft?
17:56:45 <AllanJ> gl: if we are putting out new draft, it doesn't make sense to extend date.
17:57:22 <AllanJ> kf: need a strategy to get more input. should wait for a new draft.
17:58:10 <kford> KP: Let's identify target people and notify them in advance.
17:58:32 <kford> KP: Assign folks to follow up and get feedback from our targetted audience.
17:58:44 <patrickhlauke> +1
18:00:19 <patrickhlauke> i'll pester Opera internal, obviously
18:00:43 <AllanJ> everyone think of 1 or 2 people to ping for review
18:01:28 <kford> Group will pick target people.  Everyone try to identify two folks for next meeting.
18:01:42 <kford> Goal it to publish next working draft in a week.
18:01:49 <kford> zakim, close item 4
18:01:49 <Zakim> agendum 4, Comments on last public working draft, closed
18:01:50 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:01:52 <Zakim> 2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
18:01:56 <kford> zakim, take up item 3
18:01:56 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more)" taken up [from kford]
18:02:38 <kford> JA: Talking about Kelly's e-mail on BN and browsing. I read something that says mobile browsing is more popular or will be than the desktop.
18:03:09 <kford> KP: What does our group use today?
18:03:42 <kford> PL: Opera is on more devices than any other browser.
18:03:49 <kford> KP: I use an iPhone.
18:04:35 <kford> PL: We have Opera in a lot of non-traditional devices like picture frames, cars and such.
18:05:03 <kford> JA: There have also been articles on TV manufacturers putting the browser in the TV.
18:06:05 <patrickhlauke> i use iphone / android
18:06:25 <patrickhlauke> being careful not to mix device with browser - e,g, android has lots of different browsers
18:06:54 <AllanJ> kf: are there users and other mobile browser companies that we could target
18:07:30 <AllanJ> pl: iphone and android are just platforms, they can have many different browsers that run on each
18:07:39 <kford> PL: Kind of a complex challenge here because of the different hardware manufacturers and browser vendors.
18:08:59 <kford> PL: Can we ping the mobile web group in the W3C?
18:09:08 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:10:06 <patrickhlauke> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/Activity
18:10:26 <patrickhlauke> also AT support on different devices / platforms varies
18:11:37 <kford> GL: Does our stuff cover set top boxes?
18:11:42 <patrickhlauke> it should
18:12:07 <kford> JA: We'd hope so. UAAG was desktop centric.  Glao for this is to go beyond.
18:12:07 <patrickhlauke> devices that consume/display web content in general
18:12:39 <kford> GL: We need to get some of these vendors then involved.
18:12:56 <kford> GL: Also need to call out more of who we aim UAAG for in the intro.
18:13:18 <kford> GL: Specifically call out stuff like st top.
18:14:18 <kford> PL: I've had some involvement with a UK effort to define some accessibility that encompasses the broad case of web accessibility.
18:14:46 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:14:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:15:26 <kford> zakim, close item 3
18:15:26 <Zakim> agendum 3, Browsing beyond the desktop (mobile and more), closed
18:15:27 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:15:29 <Zakim> 2. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/ [from kford]
18:15:34 <patrickhlauke> action: PL to check wording of draft BSI BS8878 re making it cover all "web consuming" devices
18:15:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-382 - Check wording of draft BSI BS8878 re making it cover all "web consuming" devices [on Patrick Lauke - due 2010-05-06].
18:16:42 <kford> PL: BBC is a driving force behind this effort.
18:17:59 <kford> zakim, take up item 2
18:17:59 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100427/" taken up [from kford]
18:20:15 <AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100426/
18:20:42 <kford> Group is going to rerun the survey.
18:20:48 <patrickhlauke> +1
18:23:06 <Zakim> -kford
18:23:09 <Zakim> -kimpatch
18:23:10 <Zakim> -patricklauke
18:23:12 <Zakim> -jeanne
18:23:12 <patrickhlauke> patrickhlauke has left #ua
18:23:17 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
18:23:19 <Zakim> -Greg
18:23:19 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:23:20 <Zakim> Attendees were Jim_Allan, Greg, kford, Jeanne, patricklauke, +1.617.325.aaaa, kimpatch, mhakkenin, +1.508.877.aabb
18:25:14 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:25:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:26:12 <kford> Present: Kelly, Greg, Jim, Patrick, Mark, Jeanne
18:26:22 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:26:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:26:59 <kford> Present+Kim
18:27:06 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:27:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:31:29 <kford> zakim, please part
18:31:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:32:11 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:32:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-minutes.html kford
18:32:20 <kford> rrsagent, please part
18:32:20 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-actions.rdf :
18:32:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: kp to look at all the focus references in the guidelines and it's necessary reconcile them with the new definitions [1]
18:32:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-irc#T17-33-22
18:32:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PL to check wording of draft BSI BS8878 re making it cover all "web consuming" devices [2]
18:32:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-ua-irc#T18-15-34