00:14:05 silvia has joined #html-a11y
01:12:56 judy has joined #html-a11y
03:22:26 judy has joined #html-a11y
14:57:38 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:57:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-irc
14:57:40 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:40 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:57:42 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:42 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:43 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:43 Date: 29 April 2010
14:58:39 janina has joined #html-a11y
14:59:00 zakim, call janina
14:59:00 ok, janina; the call is being made
14:59:07 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0308.html
14:59:11 chair: Janina_Sajka
14:59:26 zakim, drop janina
14:59:26 sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
14:59:46 gfreed has joined #html-a11y
15:00:18 +Jim_Allan
15:00:25 +Janina_Sajka
15:00:26 gfreed has left #html-a11y
15:00:53 +??P49
15:00:55 +Marco
15:01:10 +[Microsoft]
15:01:33 zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton
15:01:33 +Paul_Cotton; got it
15:01:56 JF has joined #html-a11y
15:02:19 Ben has joined #html-a11y
15:02:25 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:02:25 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:02:25 agenda: this
15:02:25 agenda+ Actions Review
15:02:25 agenda+ Canvas, Media, & ARIA Subteam Updates
15:02:26 agenda+ Table Summary Restart http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table_Summary
15:02:28 agenda+ CFC re New HTML 5 Elements http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0291.html
15:02:30 agenda+ CFC re Missing Alt [See below]
15:02:32 agenda+ Setting Deadlines for Open Issues
15:02:34 agenda+ User Agent Related Bugs--What's Our Approach?
15:02:34 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Michael_Cooper
15:02:36 agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review
15:02:38 agenda+ New Business
15:02:40 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:02:42 agenda+ be done
15:03:00 scribe = jf
15:03:15 scribe: John_Foliot
15:03:20 +Rich
15:03:23 scribenick: JF
15:03:32 JS tweak to agenda - review of open issues - UI issues
15:03:33 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:03:41 action item review
15:03:41 Sorry, couldn't find user - item
15:03:43 Sean has joined #html-a11y
15:03:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:03:50 +Ben
15:04:11 action 25 - Steve F
15:04:11 Sorry, couldn't find user - 25
15:04:31 will leave open - steve not on call
15:04:33 ACTION-25?
15:04:33 ACTION-25 -- Steve Faulkner to post notice to a11y TF about http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ and how to make comments -- due 2010-04-22 -- OPEN
15:04:33 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/25
15:04:57 +[IPcaller]
15:04:58 will re-visit Issue26 later in the call
15:05:04 subteams : Canvas
15:05:06 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:05:18 awaiting responses - nothing heard over the last 2 weeks
15:05:31 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:05:35 Rich will 'shake the tree' this week
15:05:48 affecting deadline - needs more comments
15:05:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010AprJun/0003.html
15:05:56 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010AprJun/att-0003/2dcontext10-Apr-11.html
15:06:02 concern of exposing this level of API
15:06:06 Caret issue
15:06:34 porposal exists - question is how does this get mapped to A11y API/platform
15:06:37 i/JS tweak to agenda/TOPIC: Action Item Reviews
15:06:42 zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
15:06:42 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:07:17 gfreed has joined #html-a11y
15:08:13 JF: had lenghthy but productive call yesterday; touched on Javascript API for Text Associations; talked about timestamp format; don't have concise and formal rfequirements stateement -- spread over multiple docs, JF has action item to distill into something clear and cohesive
15:08:33 JF: playing catch-up; will submit document to TF when finished so can base future work
15:08:48 JS: discussed media requirments versus feature reqs
15:08:55 + +1.617.300.aaaa - is perhaps WGBH?
15:09:13 JF: need to address a11y in and - urgency as is being implemented without a11y
15:09:25 JF: media in HTML5 - introduces multiple layers of complexity
15:09:56 JF: short term needs and longer term needs and reqs; roadmap for media work; very productive call; tough on attendees -- australians up early, europeans up late
15:10:20 JF: time was 3PM Vancouver time; workable -- will have series of calls over next few weeks;
15:10:34 JF: will perhaps later move to every-other-week
15:10:48 SF: WHAT WG stuff -- where does that fit into what is being done in media subgroup
15:11:48 JF: underscores sense of urgency; implementation outside of our control - have to focus on what is being currently implemented; need to re-review WHAT WG req documents -- seems to be a pretty good start but have to check to see if included everything; will consider and use in collating document
15:12:00 http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html
15:12:10 +[Mozilla]
15:12:15 JF: encourge TF members to review the WHAT WG materials
15:12:22 thanks Greg
15:12:23 Zakim, Mozilla has David_Bolter
15:12:23 +David_Bolter; got it
15:12:38 Summary Proposal - Wendy not on call
15:12:48 defer on this
15:12:59 s/ JS: discussed media requirments/JF: discussed media requirments/
15:13:13 CfC on the Zero Edits Resolution
15:13:18 i/JF: had lenghthy/scribenick: oedipus
15:13:41 Issues 90, 91, 93, 95, 96, 97
15:13:46 i/Summary Proposal - Wendy/scribenick: JF
15:13:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:13:54 one vote recorded against
15:14:11 no-one else has commented
15:14:35 cyns - silence=agreement?
15:14:43 JS - essentially, yes
15:15:11 i/subteams: Canvas/TOPIC: Sub-groups/Sub-team Reports/
15:15:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:15:16 suggestion is to vote on the call
15:15:45 not required to respond to the email - email offered the opportunity to register your voice
15:16:10 MC - essentially silence *does* = concurance
15:16:29 removes the ability to have an objection later down the road
15:16:34 GJR does not object to closing CfC for issues 98, 91, 93, 95, 96, 97
15:16:44 RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the zero-edit change
15:16:44 proposal at
15:16:44 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/KeepNewElements. We note
15:16:44 this proposal closely tracks our previously submitted recommendation
15:16:44 ISSUE-90 figure, ISSUE-91 aside, ISSUE-93 details, ISSUE-95 hidden,
15:16:45 ISSUE-96 progress, and ISSUE-97 meter at:
15:16:47 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/1086.html
15:16:49
15:17:28 per request of group from last week, that we come up with a fomarl language here
15:17:35 i/subteams: Canvas/TOPIC: Sub-Group Reports/
15:17:42 JS is there discussion? Is there opposition?
15:18:05 JS declares that we accept this, and JS will formally forward this to the WG Chairs
15:18:12 Next: Missing ALT
15:18:46 almost closed this last week, lacked formal language
15:18:54 rectivated discussion on list this week
15:18:58 2 comments emerged
15:19:06 need to drop off
15:19:12 -Rich
15:19:13 introduction of a "missing" atribute
15:19:37 not sure if we want to further perfect the original proposal
15:19:48 regrets: Laura_Carlson, Sylvia_Pfeiffer, Denis_Boudreau
15:19:51 do we need to re-open
15:20:46 q?
15:21:53 q?
15:22:08 JF: responded late this morning before call -- discussing 2 issues on list - 1 is introduction of new attribute that is indicator that author explicitly declined to use alt text; second is crowd-sourcing or metadata mining as repair -- that is going back down the image hueristics issue which we voted down; need to de-link 2 issues; support specific indicator for missing @alt - indicates author provided opportunity to provide @alt text and did not; crowd-so
15:22:10 valid
15:22:45 JF: approved matt's statement on Issue 66 to strike OCR from text -- to me, crowd-sourcing and data-mining are similar
15:23:32 JS: personal statement (not wearing chair's hat) -- may have negative copyright implications - should stay clear of that; if not in spec, doesn't mean can't happen -- putting in spec gives far more credence than we are in position to accept
15:23:47 (thanks Greg)
15:23:49 q?
15:23:50 KF: personally, agree with JS 100% -- dangerous thing to do
15:23:51 q+
15:24:05 JS - anyone wishing to speak in favor of crowd-sourcing?
15:24:18 -[Mozilla]
15:24:31 Cyns - adding it to UAAG might be a good idea, but not the spec
15:24:35 q?
15:24:40 ack o
15:24:57 GR - suggests that it could be added to SteveF's guidance document
15:25:12 i/JF: responded late/scribenick: oedipus
15:25:16 appears consensus of call that crowdsourcing not be included in the spec
15:25:22 i/JS - anyone/scribenick: JF
15:25:49 JS leaves open the question what to do with the 'Flickr' problen
15:26:07 GJR: would like to use SteveF's document to point out how crowd sourcing might work with a tool such as the w3c open source tool RDFPic
15:26:23 a "missing' attribute would not be objected to, but we leave to the HTML WG to decide
15:26:45 not sure if it is important to hold up consensus of current proposal
15:26:58 appears that we have a good recommendation
15:27:22 Cyns - perhaps vote on the existing proposal, and suggest a sperate Change Proposal for any new attribute
15:27:30 ie @missing or equiv
15:27:48 q?
15:27:53 JS - I believe that this might be the better way forward
15:28:01 oedipus_ has joined #html-a11y
15:28:04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0332.html
15:28:18 SF - agrees that this kind of guidance could go into the guidance document he is working on
15:28:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0332.html
15:28:46 GR - yes, could add the metadata stuff he floated on the list to document steve is working on as well
15:28:59 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0307.html
15:29:15 steves document will include both practical guidance and a look at future possibilities
15:29:24 greg will contribute
15:29:46 ACTION: Gregory - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list
15:29:46 Created ACTION-28 - - prepare text for SteveF's guidance document about future of data-mining using RDFPic methodology outlined in post to list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-05-06].
15:30:29 plus 1 to approval now with addendum later
15:30:38 RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the change proposal at
15:30:38 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126to
15:30:38 implement WAI Consensus Guidance that a missing text alternative should
15:30:38 be an error in conformance checkers. We expect the error text will
15:30:38 reference additional guidance on text alternatives in WCAG support
15:30:39 materials.
15:30:41
15:30:48 proposal from cyns is to vote on previous/existing alt text proposal, and ask Laura et al to work on @missing or equiv separately
15:30:57 plus 1 to approval now with addendum later
15:31:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:31:14 JS ask for any discussion? any objections on adoption of the Change Propsoal
15:31:21 accepted
15:31:58 greg to re-format IRD log - thanks
15:32:03 Deadlines
15:32:29 not just the a11y TF being put under pressure
15:32:40 i/accepted/RESOLUTION: The HTML-A11Y Task Force supports the change proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126to implement WAI Consensus Guidance that a missing text alternative should be an error in conformance checkers. We expect the error text will reference additional guidance on text alternatives in WCAG support materials.
15:32:41 Chairs are pushing all TFs and groups
15:32:48 heading towards a Last Call
15:33:11 deadlines can be positive - they force decisions - no need to continue talking
15:33:27 and highlights real open issues
15:33:39 as long as we are reasonable in moving forward
15:33:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:34:00 JS agrees to work with deadlines, as long as we remain in control
15:34:12 TF needs to start thinking seriously about deadlines
15:34:46 example - media is still too wide open, however canvas is well along and finding a deadline for that might be easier
15:35:25 GR - one thing to ask the WG is to remember that we are replacing some things that have been remove - we are being asked to re-engineer some things, and that takes time
15:35:49 JS - aware that some old battles appear to be being re-fought
15:36:05 TOPIC: Deadlines for TF Deliverables
15:36:32 JS - suggesting late may for Canvas resolution (20th or 27th)
15:37:09 Wendy no t on call to discuss Summary, but Proposal exist to re-install @summary as found in HTML4 to act as a place holder
15:37:31 to remove 'pressure' for now, with understanding that we are working on a more comprehensive solution
15:38:13 q?
15:38:16 Cyns original proposal was poorly received by the WG, which is why she went back to it originally
15:38:46 PC - as a result to that significant feedback, Cyns went back to the drawing board, which is why Proposal B emerged - in another direction
15:39:06 Cyns - Proposal B doesn't seem to be any less controversial than the orignal propsoal
15:39:34 if we can get a position to re-instate the orignal @summary, that would buy time
15:39:52 but don't feel that this will move forward based upon previous exchanges
15:41:21 PC - good question - if there was a bug that stated re-instate HTML4 accessibility issue (@summary) then that might work - asking for more guidance
15:41:38 might be feasible as an operational issue, but might not give us amuch actual guidance
15:42:18 Cyns - what that would give us is taht we could stop arguing about it, and focus on real engineering work (canvas , ARIA mappings, etc.) - allows us to focus engineering resources on the hard bits
15:42:36 not on the emotional battles that many consider to be old news
15:42:42 + 1 greg
15:43:09 q?
15:43:10 GJR believes first question to be answered vis a vis summary is: attribute or element
15:43:14 Wendys work is on improving table analysis to reduce the need for a summary mechanism
15:43:45 SF - might be seen as a backwards step
15:43:49 won't move issue forward
15:44:04 q+ to say that we still have competing summary proposals
15:44:09 ack me
15:44:09 oedipus, you wanted to say that we still have competing summary proposals
15:44:10 Cyn -*if* we could do this just for summary, might find reception
15:44:20 q?
15:45:10 KF - agrees with most, however if should not propose something predicated upon something that may or may not happen in the future
15:45:25 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table
15:45:36 -Marco
15:45:41 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table_Summary
15:46:01 Cysn: putback HTML4 text, work will continue, it may or may not be fruitful replacing some of the use-cases of summary
15:46:33 GR - points out we have competing proposals summary as attribute versus summary as an element
15:46:41 +Marco
15:47:42 suggest we decide which thing it should be
15:48:13 gives us a clear path on whether we continue with the HTML4 perspective or as a new work effort
15:48:32 Cyns would like to maintain status quo, only because it works today - use as a deffering move
15:48:46 then address from an engineering issue down the road
15:49:11 JS - is there an objection here?
15:49:15 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Table_Summary#Proposals
15:49:34 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element
15:49:36 We have a consensus on direction - JS and Cyns will work on language for a Recommendation
15:49:45 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/tableInfoProposal
15:49:57 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/tableSummaryProposal
15:49:59 for next week to formally address
15:50:07 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/SummaryAttribute20100222
15:50:15 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Details_element_as_a_replacement_for_summary_attribute,_Feb_15,_2010
15:50:26 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Summary_Change_Proposal_Nov_18,_2009
15:50:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/29-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:51:05 Tuesdays 3:00 PM
15:51:08 Boston
15:51:12