22:00:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
22:00:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-irc
22:01:01 <janina> zakim, this will be html-a11y
22:01:01 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
22:01:10 <janina> zakim, this will be media
22:01:10 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
22:01:34 <janina> zakim, who is here?
22:01:34 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
22:01:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
22:02:29 <silvia> zakim, code
22:02:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', silvia
22:02:59 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Media
22:02:59 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
22:03:14 <shayes> shayes has joined #html-a11y
22:04:00 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
22:04:57 <JF> shall we start?
22:05:06 <JF> anyone volunteer to scribe?
22:05:33 <AllanJ> scribe: allanj
22:05:55 <AllanJ> jf: issues from JB, needs statement
22:05:59 <silvia> is there a phone number to call?
22:06:45 <JF> 1 617 761 6200 (USA)
22:07:22 <AllanJ> jb:We need a requirements document for work in the media area.
22:08:21 <AllanJ> ... sees there are some requirements. are they vetted? are they comprehensive?
22:09:20 <AllanJ> ... concern about technical and accessibility representation. wants WAI to have participation. requirements would help getting the right folks
22:09:29 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
22:09:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
22:10:21 <AllanJ> jf: sylvia has done work for Mozilla, and put lots of information on the wiki
22:10:39 <AllanJ> ... are we missing something? who else should we contact?
22:11:06 <silvia> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/Video_a11y_requirements
22:11:19 <silvia> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_tracks
22:11:32 <AllanJ> jb: impression from months back, was concerned about vetting and input, if they have been addressed, I'm Ok
22:12:19 <AllanJ> sylvia: documents posted have had lots of input. 
22:12:52 <AllanJ> ... requirements captions, transcript, audio description
22:13:15 <JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/MultimediaAccessibility
22:13:30 <AllanJ> ... basic requirements are not a problem. all agree. Issues are how to realize the requirements in practice on the web.
22:14:15 <AllanJ> ... doesn't feel need for additional requirements. Please review, comment as necessary.
22:14:41 <AllanJ> ... standstill, at the moment is the technical implementation
22:15:55 <AllanJ> ... one issue is synchronization of multiple video types (multiple angles, etc)
22:17:16 <AllanJ> jb: 0there is a role for the requirements document., will review the pieces. wonders why not a whole.
22:17:45 <AllanJ> js: may need a resolution that are requirements are at URI.
22:18:04 <silvia> this is our media accessibility requirements document: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
22:18:07 <AllanJ> ... perhaps wiki page. that way we have a starting point, and the problems we solved
22:19:09 <AllanJ> jf: jb talked about other groups to review. do we have to chase after other groups, or say here is the info - review at will.
22:20:34 <AllanJ> jb: looks like lots of groups have been approached. would like to know who, so I can use my contacts to forward the work of the group. need a single requirements. will commit to review these documents.
22:20:41 <janina> zakim, who is on the phone?
22:20:41 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
22:20:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
22:21:07 <janina> zakim, this is WAI_PF(Media
22:21:07 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not see a conference named 'WAI_PF(Media' in progress or scheduled at this time
22:21:24 <AllanJ> jf: in minutes of this meeting are lots of URI. could combine all requirements into one
22:21:43 <AllanJ> ... there are several technologies referencing similar things
22:22:11 <AllanJ> ... smile, etc. lots of overlap, hard to look 5 years in future. 
22:22:44 <AllanJ> ... getting a sense of scale and timeline for a deliverable has not yet been done
22:23:00 <AllanJ> .../s/smile/smil
22:24:07 <AllanJ> dick: have been pointing out challenges. getting responses of 'too far down path a'
22:24:32 <AllanJ> ... long term vs short term. want to know constraints
22:25:14 <AllanJ> ... guidance on input needed, 
22:25:48 <AllanJ> sylvia: 'too far down the path'... only the implemented video element in html5.
22:26:27 <AllanJ> ... that is fixed. trying to make that accessible (captions, audio description)
22:26:48 <AllanJ> ... smil is out of scope. 
22:27:24 <AllanJ> ... still a need to develop a larger picture, need to solve the short term problems
22:28:07 <AllanJ> jf: having a requirements document may help focus efforts.
22:28:26 <AllanJ> ... smil and daisy have legitimate concerns.
22:28:48 <AllanJ> ... video is being used now. how do we solve that problem.
22:29:14 <AllanJ> js: daisy should be on call
22:29:32 <AllanJ> kenny: yes daisy is here. 
22:30:16 <AllanJ> jb: requirements would be good
22:30:34 <AllanJ> jf: would help set timelines also
22:31:57 <AllanJ> ?? if something violate a longterm need but meets a shortterm need, how do we resolve.
22:32:13 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda?
22:32:13 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
22:32:42 <judy> judy has joined #html-a11y
22:32:44 <AllanJ> topic: multitrack api
22:33:32 <AllanJ> dickbolterman: activation of embedded content tracks, this api meets this need.
22:35:12 <AllanJ> resolution: the media sub team recommends the multitrack API at @@
22:35:22 <judy> Zakim, this is WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
22:35:22 <Zakim> ok, judy; that matches WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM
22:35:32 <judy> zakim, who's here?
22:35:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Eric, Judy, +31.65.159.aaaa, ??P1, Jim_Allan, Geoff_Freed, Janina_Sajka, +61.2.801.2.aabb, +61.3.986.4.aacc
22:35:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see judy, JF, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
22:36:04 <AllanJ> topic: media/text association
22:36:28 <AllanJ> db: also related to item 3
22:36:51 <AllanJ> ... main concern - current vido and audo objects have multiple functions.
22:36:52 <Zakim> -Eric
22:37:12 <Zakim> +Eric
22:37:15 <AllanJ> ... content, selection, and time containers
22:37:32 <AllanJ> ... all are being integrated into one object
22:38:06 <AllanJ> ... tried to integrate SMIL processing model with 'switch'
22:38:41 <AllanJ> ... proble: introduction of time contaiiner. secheulde independent objects.
22:38:58 <AllanJ> ... we are not just choosing from among available tracks
22:39:24 <AllanJ> ... we are gathering different tracks from different places
22:39:40 <AllanJ> ... also links in captions
22:41:08 <AllanJ> ... pairing audio w/ video, should be same as pairing captions w/ video, or audio description w/ video
22:42:05 <AllanJ> jf: technology is browse window. they are reaching the point that they can't do everything that a standalone player can
22:42:32 <AllanJ> ... do we focus on browsers as they are now, or what they can do in the future
22:43:36 <AllanJ> db: absolutely browser window. reasonable that captions can be place on, above, below, etc the video. we are adopting old TV model. TV now is moving away from old model
22:43:54 <AllanJ> ... extended functionality can work in the current object.
22:45:00 <AllanJ> sylvia: disagree with this model. mentioned video with time containers. in html5 video is only audio and video with one timeline. slideshows are a different thing. 
22:45:42 <AllanJ> ... source selection with only 1 time line. 
22:46:03 <AllanJ> ... switch element is out of html5
22:46:27 <AllanJ> ... tracks for captions and audio descriptions are not independent time ines.
22:46:55 <AllanJ> ... they are dependent on the one AV timeline. this is a big difference.
22:47:35 <AllanJ> ... need to solve accessibility first. other proposals are after this.
22:48:02 <AllanJ> db: is one selection with one timeline can agree.
22:48:21 <AllanJ> ... if fetching a track comes in late then what happens. 
22:49:02 <AllanJ> ... need to match time if things are coming from separate files.
22:49:32 <AllanJ> ... if you don't want this, then must define captions as embeded within video.
22:49:56 <AllanJ> ... could have many track, karoke, etc. they are real problems. and here now.
22:50:44 <AllanJ> sylvia: map all timelines to the base video timeline. multiple files will not break this simple algorithm
22:51:40 <AllanJ> ... soucing from different servers. if things don't arrive at the same time, too bad. can't hold the video.
22:52:18 <AllanJ> db: if you need the captions to get the information, then throwing them out is not a good plan.
22:52:46 <AllanJ> sylvia: video won't start until captions are there.
22:53:29 <AllanJ> db: if you have small device with long video. need to support the simple soulution first, but address the complex one in the future.
22:54:22 <AllanJ> eric: media engine composed media files on demand. 
22:54:54 <AllanJ> ... need to define specific rules about timing. all media must be there before it starts.
22:55:07 <AllanJ> ... not sure how this is different from what we have now.
22:55:44 <AllanJ> db: is inside the video element the proper place to do the time composition.
22:56:27 <AllanJ> eric: must agree with sylvia. already have this situation. media file is time container. and can reference external media
22:56:51 <AllanJ> db: if you have embedding media, the rendering engine...
22:57:14 <AllanJ> eric: not the case. the mdia samples may come from external file. 
22:57:42 <AllanJ> ... there is one master timeline in the container. controled by the browser
22:58:48 <AllanJ> db: hyperlinks in a text file, to link to other objects or navigate within a media. so the subbordinate textfile is controlling the parent object
22:59:08 <AllanJ> sylvia: it doesn't matter. just points to an offset in the video
22:59:32 <AllanJ> db: if in same file and point 20 sec into the future......
23:00:05 <AllanJ> sh: that is not how timetext works.
23:00:23 <AllanJ> db: author has to know what video encoding is being use.
23:00:54 <AllanJ> sh: whichever is playing controls the clock.  can sample forward or backward
23:02:16 <AllanJ> Discussion of intricacies of timedtext and smil timing model
23:02:54 <judy> judy has joined #html-a11y
23:03:18 <AllanJ> sh: what does a hyperlink actually do in a caption file. none of it has been defined.
23:03:45 <AllanJ> jf: do we need to bring up hyperlinks in the requirements documents
23:04:32 <AllanJ> jf: srt, dxfp, and styling of textfiles.
23:04:54 <AllanJ> ... accessibility, changing style is need.
23:04:54 <gfreed> just for the record, i think we do need to look at hyperlinking when the time is appropriate.
23:05:25 <AllanJ> ... can't do this with srt. then do we look a timedtext or dxfp
23:05:42 <AllanJ> ... but browsers say it is too complex.
23:05:47 <Zakim> - +61.2.801.2.aabb
23:06:09 <AllanJ> db: need to keep options limited. 
23:06:32 <AllanJ> ... text association models have different semantics
23:06:50 <Zakim> + +61.2.801.2.aadd
23:07:08 <AllanJ> ?? correction, srt will use the browser default style sheet, modifiable by the user.
23:07:19 <judy> zakim, who's here?
23:07:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Judy, +31.65.159.aaaa, ??P1, Jim_Allan, Geoff_Freed, Janina_Sajka, +61.3.986.4.aacc, Eric, +61.2.801.2.aadd
23:07:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
23:07:26 <AllanJ> jf: what about the author having some control?
23:07:53 <AllanJ> eric: basic srt does not have this (styling by author)
23:08:22 <AllanJ> jf: styling could allow placement of captions, above, below, bubbles, etc.
23:08:54 <AllanJ> eric: need a solution to allow the author to style. otherwise, not going to fly.
23:09:18 <AllanJ> ... problem with dxfp is how stylse is expressed. 
23:09:49 <AllanJ> sh: xsfo has css properties through xsl.
23:09:51 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
23:10:17 <AllanJ> gf: one model about styling on captions is repurposing captions from other media.
23:10:55 <AllanJ> .... may have colors fonts, etc so they can transfer to the web.
23:11:28 <AllanJ> sylvia: dxfp problems, no support for ruby and i18n. 
23:11:45 <AllanJ> sh: not ruby markup but can display ruby text.
23:12:01 <AllanJ> jf: srt doesn't support ruby either
23:12:30 <AllanJ> sylvia: srt is simplistic solution. determining the requirements on whatwg
23:13:20 <AllanJ> ... ... what format exists to support stylihg requirement.  currently, none.
23:13:33 <Zakim> - +61.3.986.4.aacc
23:13:33 <AllanJ> jf: yikes!
23:13:45 <AllanJ> ... requiring ruby is a good thing.
23:14:18 <AllanJ> sylvia: ian is mashingup and format to meet requirements. need feedback and comments.
23:14:31 <janina> zakim, +31 is Dick_Bolterman
23:14:31 <Zakim> +Dick_Bolterman; got it
23:14:42 <AllanJ> ... it will likely be the format speced
23:15:02 <AllanJ> jf: this covers item 4 also
23:15:18 <judy> q+
23:15:29 <AllanJ> ... time is ticking. htmwg is looking to solve or they will be closed.
23:15:35 <judy> q+ to comment on question of timeline
23:16:16 <AllanJ> ... need to get a requirements document, need to focus on that, and try to set timeline
23:16:25 <AllanJ> ... and get started on the work
23:16:53 <AllanJ> ... html5 video is already on the web.
23:17:06 <silvia> zakim, mute me
23:17:06 <Zakim> sorry, silvia, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
23:17:50 <silvia> zakim, I am aacc
23:17:50 <Zakim> sorry, silvia, I do not see a party named 'aacc'
23:18:21 <silvia> zakim, silvia is aadd
23:18:21 <Zakim> sorry, silvia, I do not recognize a party named 'silvia'
23:18:31 <AllanJ> jb: number if a11y issues. media is an important issue. TF chairs wre working with html5 to move things along.
23:18:53 <AllanJ> ... coordination calls ongoing.
23:19:22 <AllanJ> ... this is a complicated area. discussion today reinforces the need for requirements.
23:19:53 <AllanJ> ... it comes up in every topic. reaching consensus on requirements is needed
23:20:04 <AllanJ> ... need one document
23:20:54 <AllanJ> ... htmlwg chairs understand that media needs to be done right, and will take some time.
23:21:39 <AllanJ> js: underscore doing it 'right', timeline must be realistic.
23:21:55 <AllanJ> regular telecons. have scheduled 10.
23:22:57 <AllanJ> ...post one set of requirements. set short term goals, then see where we are
23:23:53 <AllanJ> ... need to get to a consensus
23:24:34 <Zakim> -Dick_Bolterman
23:25:24 <AllanJ> jf: need a single concensed requirements document. short term and long term. will create soon.
23:25:53 <AllanJ> Action: jf to create requirements a11y media accessibility document
23:25:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Create requirements a11y media accessibility document [on John Foliot - due 2010-05-05].
23:26:28 <AllanJ> ... will ahve conference call for next few weeks, then reassess frequency of calls
23:28:00 <janina> zakim, +61.2.208 is Silvia_Pfeifer
23:28:00 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+61.2.208'
23:28:09 <janina> zakim, +61 is Kenny_Johar
23:28:09 <Zakim> +Kenny_Johar; got it
23:28:12 <Zakim> -Geoff_Freed
23:28:14 <Zakim> -Eric
23:28:14 <Zakim> -??P1
23:28:17 <Zakim> -Judy
23:28:18 <Zakim> -Kenny_Johar
23:28:22 <janina> zakim, p1 is Eric_carlson
23:28:22 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'p1'
23:29:26 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
23:29:59 <AllanJ> zakim, who is here?
23:29:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Janina_Sajka
23:30:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gfreed, AllanJ, silvia, trackbot
23:31:13 <AllanJ> zakim, please part
23:31:13 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, Eric, Judy, +31.65.159.aaaa, Jim_Allan, Geoff_Freed, Janina_Sajka, +61.2.801.2.aabb, +61.3.986.4.aacc, +61.2.801.2.aadd,
23:31:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:31:17 <Zakim> ... Dick_Bolterman, Kenny_Johar
23:32:12 <AllanJ> rssagent, make minutes
23:33:01 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
23:33:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html AllanJ
23:33:57 <AllanJ> rrsagent, set logs public
23:34:20 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
23:34:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html AllanJ
23:34:53 <gfreed> gfreed has left #html-a11y
23:34:57 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y