IRC log of prov-xg on 2010-04-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:06:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg
13:06:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:06:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:06:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov-xg
13:06:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 98765
13:06:44 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()9:00AM scheduled to start 6 minutes ago
13:06:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
13:06:45 [trackbot]
Date: 25 April 2010
13:07:05 [kerry]
zakim, who's on the phone?
13:07:05 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()9:00AM has not yet started, kerry
13:07:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, kerry, raphael, trackbot
13:07:18 [raphael]
trackbot, start telecon
13:07:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:07:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 98765
13:07:22 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()9:00AM scheduled to start 7 minutes ago
13:07:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference
13:07:23 [trackbot]
Date: 25 April 2010
13:07:33 [raphael]
zakim, who is here?
13:07:33 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()9:00AM has not yet started, raphael
13:07:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, kerry, raphael, trackbot
13:08:02 [raphael]
zakim, this is INC_PROVXG
13:08:02 [Zakim]
ok, raphael; that matches INC_PROVXG()9:00AM
13:08:28 [raphael]
zakim, aabb is Raleigh_Room
13:08:28 [Zakim]
+Raleigh_Room; got it
13:08:37 [Yolanda]
Yolanda has joined #prov-xg
13:08:44 [kerry]
zakim, + is me
13:08:45 [Zakim]
sorry, kerry, I do not recognize a party named '+'
13:08:51 [pgroth]
pgroth has joined #prov-xg
13:09:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
13:09:44 [raphael]
Topic: 1. Agenda review
13:09:53 [raphael]
scribenick: raphael
13:10:00 [raphael]
Chair: Yolanda
13:10:15 [SamCoppens]
SamCoppens has joined #prov-xg
13:10:33 [raphael]
Yolanda: I will collect fees for the workshop, 90$ each or perhaps less, I have receipts
13:11:28 [raphael]
Present: Yolanda, Raphael, Yogach, Sam, Andrea, Chris, July, Sapias, Paul, Olaf, Christine, Kerry (on phone)
13:12:01 [Yogesh]
Yogesh has joined #prov-xg
13:12:34 [raphael]
13:12:57 [raphael]
Chris: could we do a quick introduction each?
13:13:42 [raphael]
Sam: IBBT in Ghent, PhD, aggregating information, LOD, learning objects, social graphs ... need for provenance in all my projects
13:14:23 [raphael]
Yogesh: PostDoc, e-Science group in Microsoft, scientific workflow, how provenance can be used in clusters, clouds
13:15:15 [raphael]
Raphael: EURECOM, France, multimedia semantics, study semantics for multimedia annotation, multimedia content delivery, multimedia personalisation
13:15:57 [raphael]
Yolanda: intersted in 3 aspects: provenance in workflow, provenance for capturing human decision, provenance for content trust
13:16:27 [raphael]
Christine: Australia, Internet Policy, would be happy to bring a legal aspect to this group (privacy)
13:17:03 [raphael]
Olaf: Berlin (DB group), I'm trying to answer query over distributed information, interested in information quality ... need provenance
13:17:41 [raphael]
Paul: VU Amsterdam, postdoc, worked on various provenance challenges, interested in provenance for mashup, particuarly e-science
13:18:32 [raphael]
Sathia: semantic web, provenance for the scientific community
13:19:22 [raphael]
July?: Oxford, sw + web science, provenance for linked data (work with Olaf) and implement the OPM model for
13:19:56 [raphael]
Chris: University of Berlin, started the LOD project, worked on Named Graph with Jeremy Carroll, work on information quality assessment
13:20:13 [pgroth]
July = Jun
13:21:04 [raphael]
Andreas: Karlsruhe, I'm crawling SW since 5+ years, bringing together database, sensors data and SW technologies, need for provenance
13:21:08 [raphael]
13:22:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
13:22:48 [raphael]
13:24:25 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
13:26:27 [raphael]
Raphael: what is your policy for the documents you want to publish? There is the executive summary, self-contained, short ... but would you like to publish an exhaustive document containing all use cases and requirements?
13:26:55 [raphael]
Paul: not really readable at this moment for people outside of the group ... so not really plan
13:27:53 [raphael]
Yolanda: there is a single document for all use cases:
13:28:02 [raphael]
... no,
13:28:40 [raphael]
Andreas: it reads really well, now is the time to link to technical solutions, I guess would happen in next document
13:29:09 [raphael]
Yolanda: I'm interested in multumedia requirements and also digital signatures
13:29:28 [raphael]
Paul: I have talked to Dan Brickley from the SWXG about this
13:30:10 [ChrisBizer]
ChrisBizer has joined #prov-xg
13:30:12 [aharth]
aharth has joined #prov-xg
13:30:19 [raphael]
... a lot of techies people, that might cover just an aspect of the provenance problem space and come up with their own solution
13:31:00 [raphael]
... can be the liaison, but hard to get their attention
13:31:14 [raphael]
Chris: well, this is perhaps a indication for us to work more on the technical aspects too
13:31:21 [raphael]
... to appear in their radat
13:31:26 [raphael]
13:32:26 [raphael]
Chris: state of the art document is good, but how to go forward now ?
13:32:36 [raphael]
... feel there is consensus on the OPM model
13:33:08 [raphael]
... but we could go forward
13:35:32 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
13:38:07 [raphael]
Chris: I think there is some frustration from people who would like to test things now
13:41:48 [raphael]
Yolanda: having a document that explains the mappings between various models such as Provenance Vocabulary, OPM, etc. is actually our plan
13:41:57 [raphael]
... we might not go further
13:47:52 [raphael]
Chris: we have technical people in the group, deployment people, and there is urgent pressure from the LOD community, what I suggest is to suggest technical solutions, simple vocabulary that we agreed on, or mappings between vocabularies
13:50:29 [DeborahMcG]
DeborahMcG has joined #prov-xg
13:50:51 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
13:51:20 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
13:57:47 [raphael]
Paul: we have now the requirements, but we haven't done yet the gap analysis, i.e. see which technology match which requirements
13:57:56 [raphael]
... perhaps this could be our next step
13:59:32 [raphael]
Chris: I belive the soa document should contain some mappings between the various models
14:00:06 [raphael]
Yolanda: we have the user requirements report ... our timeline schedule a soa report (end of June) and a roadmap (end of September)
14:02:37 [raphael]
Paul: assuming OPM at the core, we have mappings between PML, Provenance Vocabulary, Provenir, PREMIS and OPM
14:05:09 [raphael]
Yolanda: perhaps we could start collecting in a single place these mappings, even if we do not cover all the list of related technologies, but we have a start
14:05:55 [raphael]
Yogesh: should we not first do the gap analysis, i.e. check which model fits which use cases before working on the mappings?
14:06:07 [raphael]
Yolanda: I think we should do both
14:08:11 [aharth]
aharth has joined #prov-xg
14:09:26 [kerry]
All, I am afraid that I need to leave now. Bye and thanks.
14:09:40 [pgroth]
thanks kerry for joining
14:09:47 [pgroth]
hope it was useful
14:09:47 [Zakim]
14:14:43 [raphael]
Raphael: take inspiration of the mappings tables from the Media Ontology,
14:19:03 [raphael]
Raphael: another suggestion is to take a concrete example from the use case document and try to represent the provenance information with each models and ontologies
14:19:16 [raphael]
... in order to compare the resulting representations or rdf graphs
14:19:43 [raphael]
Jun: yes, we intend to do that, and give feedback to authors of models of which use cases are realizable or not
14:19:54 [raphael]
Chris: should not be a task for the Provenance challenge?
14:20:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
14:28:21 [ChrisBizer]
ChrisBizer has joined #prov-xg
14:28:32 [ChrisBizer]
ChrisBizer has left #prov-xg
14:33:17 [raphael]
raphael has joined #prov-xg
14:33:18 [jun]
jun has joined #prov-xg
14:33:31 [raphael]
scribenick jun
14:33:39 [raphael]
scribenick: jun
14:33:42 [ChrisBizer]
ChrisBizer has joined #prov-xg
14:33:42 [jun]
Yolanda: update on the discussion of the state of art document
14:33:59 [jun]
Yoland: Luc proposed to use a matrix to do a technology gap analysis
14:34:25 [jun]
Yolanda:not only the gap but also the strength and weakness of these technologies
14:35:02 [jun]
Yolanda: a matrix is a systematic way to organize things
14:36:21 [jun]
Yolanda: Luc also suggested that we should have some sense of goals/scope to anchor, e.g., what my needs are
14:36:49 [jun]
Yolanda:Paolo suggested to use the RDF next step paper as a starting example for the exercise
14:37:46 [jun]
Yolanda: we will use the three use case scenarios to see how they cover your goals
14:38:45 [jun]
Yolanda: Luc suggested a block diagram for each use case, an architecture picture, of how provenance pieces could fit together for a use case
14:39:46 [jun]
Yolanda: maybe there could some themes in the use case scenario, to reflect the goals, to help us to have a better idea about "goals"
14:40:09 [jun]
Yolanda: we talked more about how the matrix could look like
14:40:49 [jun]
Yolanda: maybe we can look at one particular scenario, to go through the exercise
14:41:38 [jun]
Yolanda: take one scenario, articulate tech. requirements, the goals; to draw some architecture, provenance solution for the scenario; and then look at relevant technologies and systems
14:42:39 [raphael]
Topic 2: Gap analysis study
14:43:10 [jun]
Yolanda: James also suggested to keep the content in the matrix brief, and link to the "why"s
14:48:15 [jun]
Chris: suggested to define the matrix for aligning vocabularies
14:52:30 [jun]
Topic 3: definition of provenance
14:52:50 [jun]
Yolanda: everybody puts their def. on the wiki page: what is provenance
14:53:11 [jun]
Chris: maybe someone has done a survey of provenance definition?
14:53:31 [jun]
Paul: Luc has a pretty good collection of the definition and will point to his chapter on the wiki
14:55:01 [jun]
Topic 4: define the matrix for provenance vocabulary mapping
15:04:12 [raphael]
s/Topic 2:/Topic: 2
15:04:17 [raphael]
s/Topic 3:/Topic: 3
15:04:21 [raphael]
s/Topic 4:/Topic: 4
15:04:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
15:06:16 [raphael]
s/scribenick jun/Topic: 2. Gap analysis study
15:06:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
15:07:04 [raphael]
s/Topic 2: Gap analysis study/
15:07:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
15:07:38 [raphael]
s/Topic 2: Gap analysis study//
15:07:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
15:24:34 [raphael]
scribenick: Yolanda
15:24:48 [jun]
15:26:17 [raphael]
scribenick: Yogesh
15:27:11 [Yogesh]
Sathya: Start with set of common terms? Four primary vocabolaries
15:27:49 [Yogesh]
(Starting to discuss Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings)
15:29:12 [Yogesh]
15:29:48 [Yogesh]
Paul: Listing provenance vocabularies at the wiki page...
15:30:10 [Yogesh]
Jun: FOAF has provenance vocabulary. We'll add that later.
15:31:51 [Yogesh]
Need to link the vocabularies with URL of technology in the wiki
15:32:50 [Yogesh]
Satya: Start listing common set of terms rather than complete listing, given limited time
15:33:13 [Yogesh]
Chris: Delegate description of vocabularies in the Wiki to experts on the model
15:36:20 [Yogesh]
Paul: List of provenance vocabularies is a subset of the list of technolgies available at
15:38:53 [Yogesh]
Chris: Do we have experts on the vocab list present here?
15:39:15 [Yogesh]
Satya: Yes
15:40:24 [Yogesh]
Raphael: Use mapping table similar to Media Ontology
15:41:09 [Yogesh]
Paul: Show relation between list of terms and their existence in the vocabulary
15:41:37 [Yogesh]
Chris: How do we get this list?
15:41:52 [Yogesh]
Satya: Manually go through the vocab schemas and list them out.
15:42:49 [Yogesh]
Chris: Do we distinguish between property and class for the terms?
15:44:52 [Yogesh]
Olaf: Property for may be class for another. So lets not distinguish.
15:46:28 [Yogesh]
Raphael: Add namespace prefix to each model
15:50:46 [Yogesh]
Raphael: Wiki editing tips for tables...
15:54:46 [Yogesh]
Paul: We may want a link to a document that describes the formal mapping, if it exists
16:02:14 [Yogesh]
Christine: Can we get a definition for the term? E.g. link to it
16:03:02 [Yogesh]
Chris: Can we have a temporary model term to map to?
16:05:11 [Yogesh]
Yolanda: Use opm as the "standard" term and then map others to them?
16:05:37 [raphael]
raphael has joined #prov-xg
16:05:50 [Yogesh]
Chris: Use opm term if available and if not, that identifies gap in opm
16:07:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
16:08:36 [Yogesh]
Christine: Do we need to explain why we choose OPM as the reference model?
16:08:45 [Yogesh]
Yolanda: Not right now
16:09:12 [Yogesh]
Jun: OPM's OWL serialization?
16:09:20 [Yogesh]
Paul: No, the OPM model
16:20:25 [Yogesh]
Yogesh: List all OPM terms in the wiki so it can be used a template
16:21:03 [Yogesh]
Yolanda: Do dublin core terms map to agent?
16:23:36 [Yogesh]
Paul: Other vocabs will also have a high level equivalent of agent. Not as specific as dublin core agent.
16:26:05 [Kathrin]
Kathrin has joined #prov-xg
16:26:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
16:27:40 [Yolanda]
A good table to look at from the multimedia ontology mappings is #21:
16:33:18 [Yogesh]
Chris: Deadline for finishing the mapping?
16:33:44 [Yogesh]
Satya: Is incharge of this.
16:33:59 [Yogesh]
Satya: 1 month to fill in first draft
16:34:26 [Yogesh]
Satya: May 15th for first draft
16:34:51 [Yogesh]
Only take those terms relevant to provenance
16:35:13 [Yogesh]
Satya has final say on whether to add a new reference term
16:35:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
16:35:21 [Yogesh]
breaking for lunch
16:35:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
16:54:59 [DeborahMcG]
DeborahMcG has joined #prov-xg
18:19:42 [pgroth]
pgroth has joined #prov-xg
18:23:33 [Yogesh]
Yogesh has joined #prov-xg
18:24:56 [pgroth]
back from lunch
18:25:06 [Yogesh]
Yolanda: Expand the mappings tomorrow. Moving on.
18:25:54 [raphael]
raphael has joined #prov-xg
18:26:20 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
18:26:55 [ssahoo2]
Yolanda: discussing use case in the requirements document
18:27:41 [ssahoo2]
Yolanda: use case 1: news data aggregation, case 2: disease outbreak, case 3: provenance in business contract
18:28:48 [ssahoo2]
Yolanda: use case 1 selected by vote
18:28:57 [SamCoppens]
SamCoppens has joined #prov-xg
18:30:18 [ssahoo2]
Paul: identify goal of selecting the use case
18:30:37 [raphael]
Topic: User Requirements review
18:30:59 [ssahoo2]
18:31:50 [ssahoo2]
:identify goals
18:35:33 [ssahoo2]
Yogesh: what does "technology" mean - model or implementation?
18:42:16 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
18:42:24 [ssahoo2]
Paul: who are the audience?
18:43:12 [ssahoo2]
Raphael: The AFP news agency sells a provenance toolkit to collect provenance of news entries from tweets etc.
18:44:17 [ssahoo2]
Raphael: The AFP toolkit allows to identify the source author and time information associated with a news entity
18:44:40 [ssahoo2]
Raphael: but it does not trace the exact path of the news entity
18:45:32 [ssahoo2]
Paul: The news aggregator use case does not address this scenario
18:46:42 [ssahoo2]
Paul: example scenario for use case 1: check the license of all providers for news aggregator
18:48:12 [ssahoo2]
Yolanda: this use case is more about unstructured content integration
18:49:55 [ssahoo2]
Satya: this scenario also includes RSS feed aggregators
18:50:45 [ssahoo2]
Paul: query from user for this use case - how to track where the information is sources
18:52:58 [tlr]
tlr has joined #prov-xg
18:53:20 [ssahoo2]
Chris: provenance of a blog - ability to track back to the original source of the information
18:54:40 [ssahoo2]
Jun: user care about freshness of the data and the available technology to achieve this
18:55:21 [ssahoo2]
Jun: entry point for the use cases can be topics of the use case
18:57:52 [ssahoo2]
Paul: entry points should balance between being too specific about provenance or use case domain
19:00:54 [ssahoo2]
Paul: allows conveying the provenance of the content to user
19:01:09 [aharth]
aharth has joined #prov-xg
19:03:05 [ssahoo2]
Paul: Scalability of provenance systems for Web news application
19:08:53 [ssahoo2]
Yolanda: entry points will overlap across use cases
19:10:26 [ssahoo2]
Satya: the entry points may be driven by the context of the use case or domain
19:46:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
19:50:14 [ssahoo2]
Yolanda: identify the technical requirements for the entry points of use case 1
20:18:37 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
20:22:51 [ssahoo2]
Yogesh: start with existing user requirements and remove requirements that are not specific to the use case - to identify user requirements for the entry points of the use case
20:23:25 [ssahoo2]
Paul: The technical requirements are not curated in the use cases
20:23:59 [ssahoo2]
Yolanda: the user requirements are curated but technical requirements may need to be reviewed
20:24:42 [ssahoo2]
Yogesh to review the technical requirements for the use cases
20:29:01 [ssahoo2]
Yogesh: entry points can be separated from technical requirements
20:31:25 [tlr]
tlr has joined #prov-xg
20:36:59 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
20:39:19 [ssahoo2]
Jun: understanding technical requirement is easier in context of specific user requirements
20:47:41 [ssahoo2]
Yogesh to edit the requirements page to reflect user requirement
21:00:35 [ssahoo2]
Technical requirements added for entry points of use case 1
21:04:32 [ssahoo2]
Paul/Satya: nesting of meta provenance - provenance of provenance grounds out according to requirements of the application
21:16:31 [ssahoo2]
ssahoo2 has joined #prov-xg
21:36:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate raphael
22:05:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Raleigh_Room, in INC_PROVXG()9:00AM
22:05:04 [Zakim]
INC_PROVXG()9:00AM has ended
22:05:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were +, +1.919.755.aabb, Raleigh_Room, Kerry
22:06:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #prov-xg
22:37:59 [tlr]
tlr has joined #prov-xg