See also: IRC log
<IanPouncey> Hi Doyle
<scribe> Scribe: Doyle
<scribe> ScribeNick: doylesaylor
<Wayne> Hi Shawn, did you receive my email on links to checklists?
<shawn> yes, thanks, wayne!
<shawn> 61# to mute
<shawn> 60# to unmute
<shawn> UPDATE EOWG surveys (WBS questionnaires): at http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/
Shawn: please update your attendence survey!
<shawn> results are at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/icchp2010f2f/results
Shawn: let's look at the details. the checklist for a facility that is accessible. Wayne didn't find any one or two that were sufficient to point to.
Wayne: there is one there the PCS one had a good tone, but the other ones were a little imprecise and the physical access was a real minority. There were nice municipal but sometimes had check with the mayor. Some had deadlinks. Indicates not frequent maintenance.
Andrew: that is a real stable organanizations.
Shawn: stable orgs can have dead sites!
Wayne: I looked at a site that had four links and two were dead.
Shawn: on first skim any reactions? PCS page?
<yeliz> Looks good to me
Ian: looks quite complete.
Shawn: we will have more time to review, how about listing the PCS one now in the draft, and everyone take an action item to skim through to see if there any problems just in case. Nice to link.
Wayne: the Eric one I gave you has a check list that is incredible. Educational research center, and the U.S. ...
Shawn: I don't know what the URL looks a little risky. We can always change that.
Wayne: all of these the URL looks
... that was really the thing they overlapped too much or too narrow.
Andrew: I like window coverings. In the Eric one is relevent to our stuff.
Wayne: Eric is typically totally inclusive.
Shawn: proposal to link to the PCS one now. Skim through to see any concerns, and others.
Sharron: sounds good.
Shawn: next thing is what to do with acronym in the CART. ALD. CARTs acronym there has been a thread in the list.
<shawn> thread starts here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2010AprJun/0008.html
<yeliz> I think PCS one look much better than the other one
Shawn: one of the things to
remember with this document is that we thought that people
would be skimming the first sentences of each point, but not
read the details not read top to bottom. That is an issue to
write out in first reference. That might not be so useful
compared to others. The first is to mark up the expansion of
CART would be problematic because of it could be two
... Computer Aided Real Time captioning, or ... we point to a definitional link at the bottom. Is there any reason to mark the acronym or acceptable to point to the defintion where it is right now.
<yeliz> I agree with Andrew, what is the concern?
Sylvie: I agree with Manual. We should go to the glossary to read the definition and then go back to the document.
Wayne: I like that form of marking forms and acronyms.
Andrew: also my preference but not sure we want to expand in the first sentence.
Shawn: the first time used in the planning of an event. Important to make the event accessibile. Pick up some and they might not see?
Andrew: yup, look down from the followup.
Shawn: Other thoughts?
Shadi: using the title attribute to say it is a definition. Or use the title attribtue to say it is a definition. Like here for CART.
Ian: that is what the definition would do. You would if you have a title attribute. The vast majority will not get the titlle attribute.
Andrew: do we want to write out CART?
Ian: most screen readers will read as a CART because it is recongizable word even though capitalized.
Shawn: one thing to note, lets think about screen readers, and providing an equivalent experience. If someone knows CART you don't want it spelled out. The only thing for people if they don't know what it is to be easy to figure out.
Ian: if you provide a full expansion for mouse users.
Shawn: only certain browsers in Acronym could be expanded.
<yeliz> Yes, it is browser specific, for example my browser doesn't support
Ian: Link to the full definition.
Shadi: we don't know what the first occurence is?
Shawn: I propose for straw proposal. The first occurence, in the document itself. It is in the text write out the ALD in the terminology section and then a link to the terminology. Questions?
Andrew: that would be my preference.
Shadi: I would be ok with that. Or providing the acronym elements. Without attributes for it.
<yeliz> To Shawn's suggestion +1
Shawn: ok, any objections? Ian?
Ian: that's fine.
Shawn: Ok decided.
Ian: did you see my note in my email?
Shawn: yes that is cut and paste
problem. Thanks Ian. And others who sent emails. Let's look at
the changes in the document from the agenda the first link is
from the document.
... There is also a link to the last round of edits. Let's go through the document in order and I'll point out each change. Some are fairly minor from last week and some that are more significant. The first thing is I separated out the section planning the event for organizers. Than planning your event for speakers. Thoughts on that?
Wayne: that wasn't clear until I looked around the room for planners.
Shawn: for a small thing the speakers wouuldn't do. The reason I put t;his where I did, whoever plans the event would provide material also. I went to a one day conference at a University. The schedule, or material from the presenters, and give to the attendees. I am happy to discussion on that.
Ian: Presenters might now see it.
Shawn: in the first section points right back up there. They could still skim and miss that, but a little catch there.
Ian: leave where it is.
Yeliz: the rest of the section is
not clear. Organizers from speakers. I'm not sure about involve
... if the two things discussed speakers and organizers.
Shawn: what if we took for speakers out of there. One idea is planning the event for organizers, imagine we have a speaker who doesn't need to worry about the first section, and realize they might not be responsible. And then realize they are both responsible, and the organizer makes sure the speaker is responsible.
<yeliz> I like the idea of focusing on organisers and speakers separately but I am not sure if the same separation can be done in the rest of the sections.
Heather: there seems to be a lot
of overlap. People play multiple roles. I like the planning the
event and leave it there and then have a note and then have
activities, for organizers and having accessibile materials and
the only thing I see for speakers is having materials. Take out
the events, that have this for organizers and for the speaker
to consider for activities, if only for speakers note you might
consider having activities.
... that slash out the whole section on speakers.
Shawn: a percentage of the time the speaker doesn't control the event.
Heather: if they don't they wouldn't have control they go to what they have control over.
Shawn: you would skip the section.
Heather: you would plan to do to have material.
Shawn: you plan the event here are the things you need to have. I skipped the beginning and I am at the provide material. It is not at the beginning. A separate note. It doesn't say anything about interpreters and providing CART.
Heather: that is something you could add to provide accessible materials. Make a note that you provide accessible material. The organizer might even provide the materails.
Shawn: they would get from the speaker.
Andrew: they are responsible to make the accessible format for the audience.
<yeliz> That's why I think it is useful to differentiate organisers vs. speakers
Shawn: we have that under providing accessible material.
Heather: provide in the next sentence, or say provide material for participants.
Shawn: if we move that up, then work with preparing slides and projective materials just put that one there, and then change that. We are looking at the planning your section for speakers to see if we can get rid of that. The first point is provide materail ahead time, and move that up, then there are two points left.
Shadi: do we have consensus moving the material? I do like having planning your section. I am often a speaker and I don't have influence, but I can provide materail ahead of time. Gives me something as a presenter.
Yeliz: organizers could consider it?
Shawn: some votes for leave that there and not move around. Heather for separating it up?
Heather: I am for t;he consensus. Really unable to dissect the fact, you want to separate out, but for me, we need to be so role focused, and people don't have the privilege of a narrow role. I can go to the other idea. They can go straight to that section.
Shawn: I have an example of taking the roles off. There is no roles in there. The speaker could do it, or be someone else to do it.
Shadi: I would do right after planning the event.
Shawn: my concern that event organizers would miss provide accessible material.
Andrew: I agree they might miss it.
Wayne: why not flip it. The planning comes after providing accessible materials.
Heather: I agree, upon request or send in advance?
Shawn: we say participants might need alternative formats.
Shadi: another suggestion the first part is planning an event, the second planning a session, and the third handing out materials. If called live hand outs, it would read by organizers and speakers.
Shawn: One hesitation with that, it feels it would nice to have the slides as one little section. What I would do with my slides to help them focus.
Andrew: the slides are accessible is important during the preparation.
Shawn: if you give them to someone. By the way use multiple presenting materials should go up there.
Shadi: if you plan your sessions they would map on slides and everything else.
Shawn: consider the audio, is not slide material. Shadi's idea having one section called preparing slides and materials?
Shadi: without the word
... slides handouts and other materials.
<yeliz> What about "Accessible slides, and handouts, etc"
Shawn: move to the top, another proposal to have a section called planning a session, and slides handouts, and projected material. Perspectives on those options?
Andrew: I could live with merging.
Wayne: me too.
Shadi: under the slides and projected materials you don't mention WCAG anywhere.
Shawn: I should?
Shadi: Yes. Any kind of accessibility requirements are not mentioned there.
Shawn: what is currently materials is very focused on slides. do we want to have this. Applied to materials as well like the conference program. Text big enough to be read across the room.
Shadi: I think you are assuming the slides are only going to be projected. If I am told I only make it large and color contrast, then send to the organizers is a mixed message.
Shawn: what I project is one set
of issue, and what I give someone is another issue.
... I think it harder to focus on what you do when. If I am not doing my power point? Other thoughts?
Ian: I'm with you Shawn. I'm concerned while making sure the materials are accessible, you need to focus on what's important first. Handouts are not the same as slides. Etc.
... I'm looking at under provide slides and materials, I am tempted to provide for attendees is accessible.
... anyone feel strongly either way otherwise we'll leave up to the editor preference.
Andrew: if you do powerpoint slides you can save to another format. There are other formats when preparing slides is a separet exercise and offering materials. I swing back to what you have got.
Ian: slide share from my experience I am concerned for projection rather materials.
Shadi: do we need a bullet to say make it accessible before you hand out.
Ian: can that link to where you say you want to make it accessible material.
Shawn: we have that, so that would be twice and a section then a pointer to that section.
Ian: as long that doesn't repeat a reference.
Wayne: we really don't want them to forget that.
Shawn: all right. I will put the
notes in there. Comments on the order or pointers or
interesting thoughts. Under provide accessible material there
is a separation. Any comments on the separationg? The wording
is pretty much the same.
... ok with those two points? Agreed. Staring from the top, planning the event, the first thing was doing the participants have accessible issues, and now it says speakers also. Seat people in a circle to make easier to hear. Make sure the presentation stage area. Insure an adequate sound system, then add microphones for audience. Does that work?
... next one arrange for ALD, CART where needed, and make sure important example are provided, like speakers sound is connected to the ALD hearing system. comments?
<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to ask about planning enough breaks, providing location information, and sticking to the schedule
Wayne: I have run into this problem, if you have limitations of where you use the equipment so tightly, because you have to work in an odd space which isn't good for you.
Shawn: at the beginning we say make sure about seating to add speaker there too. Consider that point to not need to expand but have generally covered?
Wayne: I have had some pretty miserable experience because of space issues. I think to make sure the speakers look at the room first.
Shawn: I'll add that.
Shadi: I was wondering about the point providing location information, and so on sticking to the schedule, something the event planner should be aware of?
Shawn: There is a section being
open to accessibility needs. Shadi?
... lets jump to the new section being open to accessibility issues.
<shawn> Respect participant's needs.
<shawn> For example: Someone might need to take breaks at set times for insulin injections. Someone with Tourette syndrome might randomly shout out during a session. Someone with a physical disability who cannot take notes might need to record the session.
<yeliz> Introduction is a good idea, I think
Sharron: those are good examples. We might need an intro, like expect the unexpedted. Something to intro the examples. A short sentence. Set up the examples. Seems that would be appropriate. Otherwise it seems a little abrupt.
<yeliz> It will also make the role of that section more clear
Shawn: ok other thoughts? What about expect the unexpected?
Shadi: I suggested because I couldn't find a better title. Might be a bit scary.
Sharron: we don't have to use that phrase. For example people have a wide variety of needs, the diversity of audience. Be flexible. Be aware of the fact of the wide broad range of audience needs. Be prepared for what you don't anticipate.
Shawn: I thought a lot of about this. I was imagining someone who is not disability aware. Not too scary but helpful.
Shadi: I think the word be open got it really nicely.
Shawn: respect for audience needs works too?
Sharron: that also is great.
Wayne: I like what Sharron said about the diversity part. You may run into something you never saw before. In any meeting like this.
Shawn: where does this go? Here or somewhere else?
<shadi> [[People with disabilities are diverse and have diverse needs. For example: ...]]
Sharron: in the intro part. It occured to me it could go with planning the event be prepared for diversity.
Yeliz; Maybe not the whole thing, but an introduction to the idea.
Andrew: I like where it was.
<yeliz> I think it would be good to mention in the introduction the idea of "being open"
Ian: the part feel to me sets it nicely considering all these are important these groups you might get at your presentation.
<shawn> * Provide a reliable agenda.
<shawn> Ensure sufficient breaks, include sessions for orientation and logistics, provide information about room location, and keep to the scheduled time.
Shawn: might be mentioned at the beginning but what might actually happen in a session would still be here.
Shadi: I think planning events about breaks many presenters don't understand the logistics, like the basics about the logistics for the day. Many organizers don't provide information about how to get there. Many people move the event around without notifiying people makes it hard for PWD at times.
Shawn: add something asks speaker about accessibility requirements?
Shadi: not about requested. Why are hesitant?
Wayne: these are general usability point that has a disproportionate impact on PWD.
Sharron: that might be the way to solve that.
Shawn: we added be open to accessibility issues.
Wayne; like something in a conference are very important for PWD.
Sharron: common courtesies. General practive but are particularly important to PWD. Implied but could be explicit.
Shawn: Shadi's point is pushing the line about what is true about disabilities, but what do we need to expand to get across. A point that is succinct or doesn't meet that threshold.
Wayne: I spent one day at a
conference where I was lost, because of stuff like this.
... at CSUN the early guide around the conference. the mobility guides. finishing on time. It takes me every single minute to find the next room. My usual experience is walking in late. Stay on schedule.
Shadi: more information about location about how to get to things, wheelchair is around the back of the building. You spend the first day about finding location information being able to get around. Absolutely related to disability. Not courtesy. Add there would be one. Providing information about the usability, provide time to get around, when speakers are not schedule, throws off my planning.
Shawn: breaks with schedule?
<yeliz> but aren't these general rules
<yeliz> I mean general usability
Wayne: they change the room at the last minute when I've already found everything.
<Andrew> yes - but bigger impact on PWD
Shadi: how much is accessibility requirements.
Yeliz: they sound like to me about general usability issues. Sound to me like more general usabillity issues.
Shadi: provide location information, provide sufficient breaks.
Shawn: I'll add that.
Shawn: I agree this is an issue. I can go to a session I can walk so forth. but they move it.
Shadi: in the nature of this document, basically you put out social guidelines.
Shawn: the next point we changed is under planning your session, I changed multiple methods for alternative learning styles.
Wayne: sounds good to me.
<shawn> Give people time to process information.
<shawn> Pause between topics. When you ask if anyone has questions, some people with cognitive disabilities will need extra time to form their thoughts into words.
Shawn: some people understand
verbal information, others text, and others diagrams. Another
new one under during the presentation I added see (IRC)
Shawn: under use a microphone,
note when you ask can you hear ok, some people feel
uncomfortable with that questions. Under that all relevant
sound is audible through the sound system.
... the next one see something about diversity and needs you never saw before.
<shadi> [[People with disabilities are diverse and have diverse needs. For example: ...]]
Shawn: the last addition under
for more information I added a link for interacting with PWD.
We have skimmed all the changes. Anything else? Doesn't work
for you or other suggestions?
... move on?
Doyle: move on.
Shawn: lets go to -
Shawn: to let you know the ATAG 2.0 working group has approved to publish as last call. There is process work to be completed before it can be published, but hopefully it will come out fairly soon. Start thinking about what we want to do about EO about making authoring tools accessible. Think about now, so we can refine more specific ideas.
<yeliz> what about adding a section that talks about "ATAG vs. WCAG" who doesn't know much about accessibility?
Sylvie: we had a meeting with French speaking accessibility in France nobody knows about ATAG. The government doesn't know about ATAG. To make accessible you need a tool to make the authoring tool work accessibly. Know how important ATAG is so important. Those are ideas that came up.
Shawn: those ideas came up in the
last call too. Have you looked at the overview page?
... one thing to look up this a generic format we have used for all of them. Look at the overview we could enhance the overview. Let's skim through the ATAG overview page.
Ian: I thought it was ok. The order primarly for authors section could be prioritized better. Probably behind site management or publication. That is quite far down. While relevant I hope most people don't do that.
Wayne: I agree with that. The biggest things CSU the biggest thing was content management. That needs to be moved way up.
<shawn> ACTION: shawn, ATAG Overview. order of points under "Who ATAG is for", e.g., CMS & user-generated content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/23-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Shawn: this page is outdated. We need to compare to ATAG itself. High level?
Andrew: what is missing is this important for procurement.
Ian: any scope for guidelines for procurement. For CMS was one thing they needed the most help with.
Shawn: I will check on that. With WCAG 2 we had policies on accessibility. Ian could you send to the list?
Ian: I think that should be fine after I check for permission.
Andrew: we have a document selecting and using authoring tools for web accessibility is not cross referenced there.
<shawn> ACTION: Shawn, check on sample wording for procurement - where is that in our To Do lists? (Ian might have sample wording to share) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/23-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Shawn: it is so outdated. One document had serious issues so we didn't want to point to. Other brainstorms?
Wayne: we need to point out that authoring tools need to be accessible too.
Shawn: that is there.
... Two different points ATAG 2 has two different sections on that. Sylvie mentioned ATAG at a glance, in section one, we might add a section on ATAG 2 what is there. The last bullet point is making the authoring tool accessible. but ATAG 2 has a major section on this.
... anything else?
<shawn> ACTION, Shawn work with Jeanne to update ATAG Overview, including summary of what's in ATAG 2
<yeliz> What about explaining the relationship between WCAG and ATAG?
<Andrew> ATAG 2.0 has PART A: Make the authoring tool user interface accessible & PART B: Support the production of accessible content
Shawn: a slide show, a presentation deck, one thing I feel is needed is concrete examples. It can make developers jobs better. Please update your availability.
Sharron: is any of the testimony where Judy testified is available.
Shawn: all available.
... from that page, on the right has a witness list and their name links to their testimony.
<yeliz> and they linked to PDF:-s
<yeliz> I can do it
Sharron: will do the minutes. Yeliz can do next week?
<shawn> rssagent, draft minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Ian;/Ian:/ Succeeded: s/reset/rest/ Succeeded: s/ Yeliz, Alan,/ Alan, Emmanuelle/ Succeeded: s/ Will come out fairly soon. / There is process work to be completed before it can be published, but hopefully it will come out fairly soon. / Found Scribe: Doyle Found ScribeNick: doylesaylor Default Present: Wayne_Dick, doyle, Shawn, +1.770.953.aaaa, +7.902.aabb, Andrew, Shadi, +1.512.305.aacc, Sharron, +44.27.aadd, Ian, yeliz, Heather, Sylvie Present: Wayne Doyle Shawn Heather Andrew Shadi Sharron Ian Yeliz Heather Sylvie Regrets: Alan Emmanuelle_Helle Got date from IRC log name: 23 Apr 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/04/23-eo-minutes.html People with action items: shawn WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]