15:36:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:36:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-CSS-irc
15:36:21 <plinss> zakim, this will be style
15:36:21 <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
15:36:32 <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
15:45:52 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
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15:57:40 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:47 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aaaa
15:57:58 <TabAtkins> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:57:58 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
15:59:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:34 <murakami> murakami has joined #css
15:59:54 <jdaggett_sleepy> Zakim, IPCaller is me
15:59:55 <Zakim> +jdaggett_sleepy; got it
16:00:06 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #css
16:00:17 <dethbakin> dethbakin has joined #css
16:00:35 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aabb
16:00:39 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aacc
16:00:40 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aadd
16:00:50 <plinss> zakim, aacc is me
16:00:50 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
16:00:58 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:01:14 <dethbakin> Zakim,1.408.996.aabb is dethbakin 
16:01:14 <Zakim> sorry, dethbakin, I do not recognize a party named '1.408.996.aabb'
16:01:32 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:01:35 <dethbakin> Zakim, aabb is dethbakin 
16:01:35 <TabAtkins> Zakim, aabb is dethbakin 
16:01:35 <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
16:01:36 <Zakim> sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:01:45 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:01:49 <Zakim> +David_Baron
16:02:15 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:02:16 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:02:31 <Zakim> + +1.408.398.aaee
16:02:32 <Zakim> +Bert
16:02:38 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:02:39 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aaff
16:02:48 <smfr> Zakim, aaff is me
16:02:48 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
16:02:55 <dsinger> zakim, +1.408.398.aaee is dsinger
16:02:55 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:03:06 <dsinger> zakim, you have a dreadful memory
16:03:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you have a dreadful memory', dsinger
16:03:13 <dsinger> zakim, mute dsinger
16:03:13 <Zakim> dsinger should now be muted
16:03:41 <dbaron> dsinger, you can improve Zakim's memory here: http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
16:03:56 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:05:44 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:05:54 <fantasai> Peter: Any other agenda topics?
16:06:44 <fantasai> fantasai: Murakami-san would like to become co-editor of css3-text and css3-text-layout
16:07:10 <fantasai> No objections
16:07:22 <murakami> Thanks
16:08:10 <fantasai> Topic: Test Suite Status
16:08:52 <fantasai> fantasai has not worked on the test suite since the F2F, so nothing to report
16:09:00 <fantasai> Topic: Table Anonymous Boxes
16:09:02 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #css
16:09:09 <fantasai> Tab: AFAICT, it looks great
16:09:13 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0551.html
16:09:18 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0551.html
16:10:08 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:10:18 <dbaron> Zakim, mute ChrisL
16:10:18 <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
16:10:25 <jdaggett_sleepy> loud...
16:10:33 <ChrisL> better now?
16:10:37 <fantasai> dbaron: Was Boris happy with it?
16:10:39 <dbaron> ChrisL, I muted you
16:10:41 <fantasai> fantasai: yes
16:10:50 <dbaron> Zakim, unmute ChrisL
16:10:50 <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:10:51 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
16:10:51 <Zakim> ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
16:10:52 <dbaron> Zakim, mute ChrisL
16:10:52 <jdaggett_sleepy> Zakim, who is noisy
16:10:52 <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
16:10:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett_sleepy
16:11:00 <dbaron> ChrisL, not better!
16:11:00 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
16:11:00 <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:11:03 <dbaron> Zakim, mute ChrisL
16:11:03 <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
16:11:07 <dbaron> ChrisL, not better!
16:11:09 <ChrisL> oh ffs!
16:11:18 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:11:58 <Zakim> +ChrisL
16:12:27 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
16:12:27 <Zakim> ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
16:13:03 <fantasai> fantasai: There's a related issue of handling abspos elements
16:13:07 <plinss> zakim, aadd is sylvaing
16:13:07 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:14:52 <fantasai> fantasai: Boris's original proposal had abspos elements leave behind a "placeholder", which would then affect the anonymous table box generation
16:15:23 <fantasai> fantasai: From an implementator's perspective, I can see why, because in Gecko each out-of-flow has a placeholder left behind so that we can calculate its static position
16:15:53 <oyvind> does 1.2 break compat? <table><colgroup><strong>test</strong></colgroup></table> is shown here...
16:15:59 <fantasai> fantasai: But from an authoring perspective, it doesn't make any sense for the abspos to leave anything behind
16:16:14 <fantasai> fantasai: The out-o-f-flow should just disappear from its original position
16:16:26 <fantasai> Tab agrees that it should not affect layout where it used to be (but is no longer)
16:17:37 <fantasai> fantasai: it's easy to say that the abspos elements dont' affect box generation in their former location, but it's harder to stay then what the static position is
16:17:41 <fantasai> ACTION: Tab write a proposal
16:17:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-225 - Write a proposal [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-04-28].
16:17:55 <fantasai> Bert: There were some changes to the behavior in Boris's proposal, are those still there?
16:18:14 <fantasai> Bert is concerned about changes to the spec
16:18:51 <fantasai> Tab asserts that the spec had a lot of errors, and this cleanup is the right direction to go in
16:20:17 <TabAtkins> <style>div { display: table; } span.tc { display: table-cell; }</style><div><span class=tc>foo</span><span>bar</span><span class=tc>baz</span></div>
16:20:53 <fantasai> Tab: Given this testcase, you see one row with three cells in bz's definition, not one table with three rows
16:21:01 <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aagg
16:21:22 <TabAtkins> s/in bz's definition/in Firefox and Chrome/
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16:22:08 <Zakim> +dethbakin.a
16:22:14 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:22:26 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:22:27 <fantasai> fantasai: bz did a lot of testing of all the major browsers when he was writing this
16:22:55 <Zakim> -dethbakin.a
16:23:00 <sylvaing> same results in IE8 and Opera 10.51
16:23:01 <fantasai> fantasai: and tried to write something that was as compatible as possible with all of them
16:23:05 <dsinger> zakim, dethbakin.a is [Apple]
16:23:05 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named 'dethbakin.a'
16:23:13 <fantasai> Tab: Looks like current 2.1 also specifies a single row
16:23:16 <Zakim> +dethbakin.a
16:23:24 <dsinger> zakim, dethbakin.a is [Apple]
16:23:24 <Zakim> +[Apple]; got it
16:23:39 <TabAtkins> To be specific, I misread the proposed algorithm.  It does indeed mandate the behavior that we see in browsers for that testcase.
16:23:46 <bradk> Zakim, aagg is me. 
16:23:46 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:24:07 <fantasai> Peter: Any other issues? Everyone's ok with the proposal?
16:24:13 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
16:24:15 <fantasai> Bert: yes, I can't read it in such a short time
16:24:21 <fantasai> Bert: I'll complain later if I see problems with it
16:24:49 <fantasai> RESOLVED: Provisionally accept bz+fantasai's table anonymous box proposal for CSS2.1
16:26:08 <jdaggett_sleepy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0553.html
16:26:18 <dbaron> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:26:27 <fantasai> jdaggett_sleepy: Bert posted a list of comments on the css3-fonts spec
16:26:28 <Zakim> dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jdaggett_sleepy (81%), [Apple] (14%)
16:26:38 <fantasai> jdaggett_sleepy: There are both editorial and substantial comments.
16:26:47 <jdaggett_sleepy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Apr/0069.html
16:26:51 <fantasai> jdaggett_sleepy: I fixed most of the editorial comments
16:27:06 <fantasai> jd: Here are my responses
16:27:18 <fantasai> jd: THe first issue is about font-stretch not being included in the font shorthand
16:27:28 <ChrisL> q+
16:27:34 <fantasai> jd: My reason to skip it out was that 'font' already has a ton of stuff in it
16:28:01 <fantasai> ChrisL: When we were working on that we concluded that 'font' shorthand was too fragile to alter
16:28:14 <fantasai> ChrisL: If that's not a problem anymore, then, there's no reason not to include it
16:28:30 <fantasai> ChrisL: So we concluded to only include settings from 2.1 in the shorthand
16:28:45 <fantasai> jd: I'm on the fence because I don't see font-stretch being used much
16:28:54 <fantasai> jd: I'll experiment and see if including it into the shorthand works
16:29:29 <fantasai> jd: Comment B), there was a note because Steve was concerned about conflicts. We were talking about whether to have a registry
16:30:04 <fantasai> Steve: Offhand I guess I agree with Bert's observation. At the time, we had much more volatility going on.
16:30:14 <fantasai> Steve: If we can update the document to handle it...
16:30:15 <ChrisL> agree the volatility is manageable
16:30:30 <fantasai> Steve: Bert's comment is fine, I can live with that
16:30:57 <fantasai> jd: Comment c) is about the syntax of local() 
16:31:10 <fantasai> jd: Bert is asking whether we should put in wording about the syntax if it's not quoted
16:31:33 <fantasai> jd: I think that sounds good, but I'm concerned about our current discussions about unquoted font names
16:32:01 <fantasai> jd: Some of the proposals don't correlate with an easy-to-understand rule
16:32:11 <fantasai> jd: And I'm waiting to see what happens there
16:32:23 <fantasai> ChrisL: We should have the same set of restrictions on both font-face and font-familky
16:33:02 <fantasai> jd: I agree with that, but also because of font shorthand, there are some restrictions that you need to have in font-family that you don't need in font-face
16:33:12 <fantasai> jd: I think it's really confusing for people
16:33:22 <fantasai> jd: e.g. a font name that starts with a number causes all kinds of problems
16:33:34 <fantasai> jd: Bert, did you have anything?
16:33:46 <fantasai> Bert: Trying to find where <font-face-name> is defined
16:34:05 <ChrisL> I sent in some responses to Bert's comments (before seeing John's ones) - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Apr/0451.html
16:34:18 <fantasai> jd points to the definition
16:35:12 <fantasai> Bert: My issue is what does "optionally" mean? When do you need quotes? When do you not need quotes? When are they optional.
16:36:28 <Zakim> -smfr
16:36:39 <Zakim> +smfr
16:36:40 <fantasai> jd: It's always optional
16:36:51 <szilles> +1 for what fantasai said
16:36:53 <fantasai> fantasai: It can't always be optional. If the font name includes brackets or backslashes, you have to quote it.
16:37:35 <fantasai> fantasai: The best thing to do would be to point to the font-family definition. It might be slightly more restrictive than necessary here, but I think that's less of a problem than having an inconsistency there. You can recommend to quote anything with numbers or symbols.
16:38:03 <fantasai> jd talks about the font-matching algorithm
16:38:26 <dsinger> I would recommend always quoting font names.  I would expect to have to, in fact.  They are not part of the CSS language (keywords in their own right) but values supplied into it.
16:39:03 <fantasai_> fantasai_ has joined #css
16:39:23 <fantasai_> jd: The point here is to do font-matching without downloading the font insofar as possible
16:39:24 <fantasai> jd: The point here is to do font-matching without the font face being downloaded insofar as possible.
16:39:32 <fantasai_> jd: because we dont' want to download the font if we don't need it
16:39:52 <fantasai_> Bert: The problem I have is with specifying sythetic bolding / italics
16:41:09 <fantasai_> jd: If someone wants to never have synthetic bolding, they can point the bold versions at the same font
16:41:17 <fantasai_> Bert: I thought the text said something else
16:41:52 <fantasai_> Bert: I thought it meant that, if the descriptor said the font is bold, and the font is normal, the UA would have to synthesize the bold
16:42:03 <fantasai_> Bert: I don't object to what you explained
16:42:27 <fantasai_> jd: g) is on whether font-kerning is needed as a property or not
16:42:35 <fantasai_> jd: It's right now specified as on by default
16:42:39 <fantasai_> jd: Authors have the ability to disable it
16:43:36 <fantasai_> jd: It's there for situations where authors don't want kerning. These are uncommon, but I think it's important to allow authors to turn it off.
16:43:47 <fantasai_> Bert: I think there are so few cases where you'd want to turn it off
16:45:02 <fantasai_> jd: in some cases you might not have the right kerning data
16:45:17 <Zakim> -bradk
16:45:29 <Zakim> -plinss
16:45:37 <fantasai_> Steve: What happens with kerning on monospace fonts?
16:45:47 <fantasai_> jd: It usually doesn't have any kerning data
16:45:50 <Zakim> +bradk
16:46:01 <fantasai_> Steve: i'm trying to think of a case where I'd want to turn off kerning
16:46:09 <Zakim> +plinss
16:46:17 <fantasai_> jd: For complex script support, there might be cases where you need to override that.
16:46:24 <fantasai_> jd: I think I need to come up with specific examples
16:47:26 <fantasai_> Steve: I hope that everyone agrees kerning should be on by default.
16:48:04 <fantasai_> jd: One of the objections to turning kerning on by default is that people compain about performance implications
16:48:18 <fantasai_> jd: This way those people can turn it off.
16:48:31 <fantasai_> fantasai suggests marking it at-risk
16:48:44 <fantasai_> jd: I will add a note saying that there's some question of whether this feature is needed.
16:49:10 <fantasai_> dbaron: It seems like the perf concerns are less about authors who particularly want perf than about things like perf benchmarks and stuff
16:49:31 <fantasai_> dbaron: It's going to be somebody testing perf characteristics, not tweaking a page to make it faster.
16:49:49 <fantasai_> dbaron: If it's measurable in that context, I'm not sure that it is, I don't think having a property for turning it off is really addressing the perf concern
16:50:23 <fantasai_> jd: Kerning usually requires going through a slower-path API for font rendering
16:50:38 <fantasai_> jd: that allows for more effects
16:51:11 <fantasai_> jd: you have to go through that API for most of the new features here anyway
16:52:15 <fantasai_> Simon: In terms of WebKit, we know that kerning has a serious impact on pageload perf
16:52:27 <fantasai_> Simon: I'm not sure what the impact of these complex text features will be
16:52:51 <fantasai_> Simon: If the expectation is that browsers will suddenly start doing all this complex text layout, I don't really see a path to getting there
16:53:02 <fantasai_> jd: You have to render a huge amount of text to get a pref lag
16:53:13 <fantasai_> jd: Firefox has had kerning on by default for 2 years now
16:53:20 <fantasai_> dbaron: I thought that was only for large font sizes
16:53:24 <fantasai_> jd: On Windows. 
16:53:52 <fantasai_> jd: You can do the measurements, and you can get numbers that it's faster to turn it off
16:54:00 <fantasai_> jd: But when you look at documents and what it takes to lay them out
16:54:13 <fantasai_> jd: the effect of kerning is a very small part of that
16:55:18 <fantasai_> Sylvain: MS did some testing awhile back, and with kerning on the text part of layout was almost twice as slow.
16:55:37 <fantasai_> Sylvain: We haven't done that testing recently, and not sure what the effect on total page layout is
16:55:39 <ChrisL> sounds like we could do with some recent benchmark numbers on current platforms
16:56:40 <fantasai_> jd: The APIs were optimized for complex scripts, not for additional font features on simple scripts
16:57:00 <fantasai_> ChrisL: We need to get up-to-date measurements
16:57:16 <fantasai_> ChrisL: If we're going to have this discussion, we need to have measurements from current builds using current APIs
16:59:34 <fantasai_> fantasai suggests having a default 'auto' value that lets UAs pick a compromise between perf and prettiness
17:00:06 <fantasai_> fantasai: If an author wants it on, they can pick the always-on option
17:01:20 <fantasai_> dsinger, Bert: it makes sense to have the browsers compete on perf vs prettiness
17:04:17 <fantasai_> Steve: We should recommend that kerning be on by default
17:04:27 <ChrisL> sounds like a three way auto | on | off where auto means "should be on"
17:04:28 <fantasai_> Steve: That's the default in OpenType
17:05:13 <fantasai_> "but could be off if the UA decides the perf isn't worth it in most cases"
17:06:08 <fantasai_> Sylvain discusses sub-pixel positioning and that turning kerning off can be helpful for debugging sites
17:06:29 <fantasai_> Sylvain: and on certain sites, where the author isn't expecting it, can alter the layout in ways the author does not want
17:07:07 <fantasai_> jd: So what I'm taking from this is that kerning is a property with three values: 'auto', which means UA decides, but recommended to be on, 'normal', which means on, and 'none' which means off
17:07:32 <fantasai_> dbaron: I sent some comments on the CSSOM issue over email.
17:07:33 <fantasai_> Tab too
17:07:54 <fantasai_> Meeting closed
17:07:56 <Zakim> -ChrisL
17:07:57 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:07:57 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:07:58 <Zakim> -jdaggett_sleepy
17:07:58 <Zakim> -smfr
17:08:00 <Zakim> -bradk
17:08:00 <Zakim> -dethbakin
17:08:01 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:08:03 <Zakim> -plinss
17:08:06 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:08:10 <Zakim> -Bert
17:08:13 <murakami> murakami has left #css
17:08:16 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:13:17 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:13:21 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:13:22 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.253.aaaa, TabAtkins, jdaggett_sleepy, +1.408.996.aabb, +1.858.216.aacc, +1.206.324.aadd, plinss, fantasai, SteveZ, dethbakin, David_Baron, Bert,
17:13:25 <Zakim> ... +1.408.636.aaff, smfr, dsinger, ChrisL, sylvaing, +1.650.766.aagg, bradk
18:30:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #CSS
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