IRC log of CSS on 2010-04-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:36:03 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:36:21 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
15:36:21 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
15:36:32 [plinss]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:45:52 [Lachy]
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15:57:40 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:47 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aaaa
15:57:58 [TabAtkins]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:57:58 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
15:59:03 [Zakim]
15:59:34 [murakami]
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15:59:54 [jdaggett_sleepy]
Zakim, IPCaller is me
15:59:55 [Zakim]
+jdaggett_sleepy; got it
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16:00:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.996.aabb
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+ +1.858.216.aacc
16:00:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aadd
16:00:50 [plinss]
zakim, aacc is me
16:00:50 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
16:00:58 [Zakim]
16:01:14 [dethbakin]
Zakim,1.408.996.aabb is dethbakin
16:01:14 [Zakim]
sorry, dethbakin, I do not recognize a party named '1.408.996.aabb'
16:01:32 [Zakim]
16:01:35 [dethbakin]
Zakim, aabb is dethbakin
16:01:35 [TabAtkins]
Zakim, aabb is dethbakin
16:01:35 [Zakim]
+dethbakin; got it
16:01:36 [Zakim]
sorry, TabAtkins, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
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+ +1.408.398.aaee
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+ +1.408.636.aaff
16:02:48 [smfr]
Zakim, aaff is me
16:02:48 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:02:55 [dsinger]
zakim, +1.408.398.aaee is dsinger
16:02:55 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
16:03:06 [dsinger]
zakim, you have a dreadful memory
16:03:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'you have a dreadful memory', dsinger
16:03:13 [dsinger]
zakim, mute dsinger
16:03:13 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
16:03:41 [dbaron]
dsinger, you can improve Zakim's memory here:
16:03:56 [oyvind]
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16:05:44 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:05:54 [fantasai]
Peter: Any other agenda topics?
16:06:44 [fantasai]
fantasai: Murakami-san would like to become co-editor of css3-text and css3-text-layout
16:07:10 [fantasai]
No objections
16:07:22 [murakami]
16:08:10 [fantasai]
Topic: Test Suite Status
16:08:52 [fantasai]
fantasai has not worked on the test suite since the F2F, so nothing to report
16:09:00 [fantasai]
Topic: Table Anonymous Boxes
16:09:02 [ChrisL]
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16:09:09 [fantasai]
Tab: AFAICT, it looks great
16:09:13 [plinss]
16:09:18 [fantasai]
16:10:08 [Zakim]
16:10:18 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute ChrisL
16:10:18 [Zakim]
ChrisL should now be muted
16:10:25 [jdaggett_sleepy]
16:10:33 [ChrisL]
better now?
16:10:37 [fantasai]
dbaron: Was Boris happy with it?
16:10:39 [dbaron]
ChrisL, I muted you
16:10:41 [fantasai]
fantasai: yes
16:10:50 [dbaron]
Zakim, unmute ChrisL
16:10:50 [Zakim]
ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:10:51 [ChrisL]
zakim, unmute me
16:10:51 [Zakim]
ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
16:10:52 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute ChrisL
16:10:52 [jdaggett_sleepy]
Zakim, who is noisy
16:10:52 [Zakim]
ChrisL should now be muted
16:10:53 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is noisy', jdaggett_sleepy
16:11:00 [dbaron]
ChrisL, not better!
16:11:00 [ChrisL]
zakim, unmute me
16:11:00 [Zakim]
ChrisL should no longer be muted
16:11:03 [dbaron]
Zakim, mute ChrisL
16:11:03 [Zakim]
ChrisL should now be muted
16:11:07 [dbaron]
ChrisL, not better!
16:11:09 [ChrisL]
oh ffs!
16:11:18 [Zakim]
16:11:58 [Zakim]
16:12:27 [ChrisL]
zakim, unmute me
16:12:27 [Zakim]
ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
16:13:03 [fantasai]
fantasai: There's a related issue of handling abspos elements
16:13:07 [plinss]
zakim, aadd is sylvaing
16:13:07 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:14:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: Boris's original proposal had abspos elements leave behind a "placeholder", which would then affect the anonymous table box generation
16:15:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: From an implementator's perspective, I can see why, because in Gecko each out-of-flow has a placeholder left behind so that we can calculate its static position
16:15:53 [oyvind]
does 1.2 break compat? <table><colgroup><strong>test</strong></colgroup></table> is shown here...
16:15:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: But from an authoring perspective, it doesn't make any sense for the abspos to leave anything behind
16:16:14 [fantasai]
fantasai: The out-o-f-flow should just disappear from its original position
16:16:26 [fantasai]
Tab agrees that it should not affect layout where it used to be (but is no longer)
16:17:37 [fantasai]
fantasai: it's easy to say that the abspos elements dont' affect box generation in their former location, but it's harder to stay then what the static position is
16:17:41 [fantasai]
ACTION: Tab write a proposal
16:17:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-225 - Write a proposal [on Tab Atkins Jr. - due 2010-04-28].
16:17:55 [fantasai]
Bert: There were some changes to the behavior in Boris's proposal, are those still there?
16:18:14 [fantasai]
Bert is concerned about changes to the spec
16:18:51 [fantasai]
Tab asserts that the spec had a lot of errors, and this cleanup is the right direction to go in
16:20:17 [TabAtkins]
<style>div { display: table; } { display: table-cell; }</style><div><span class=tc>foo</span><span>bar</span><span class=tc>baz</span></div>
16:20:53 [fantasai]
Tab: Given this testcase, you see one row with three cells in bz's definition, not one table with three rows
16:21:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.766.aagg
16:21:22 [TabAtkins]
s/in bz's definition/in Firefox and Chrome/
16:21:24 [bradk]
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16:22:08 [Zakim]
16:22:14 [dsinger]
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16:22:26 [Zakim]
16:22:27 [fantasai]
fantasai: bz did a lot of testing of all the major browsers when he was writing this
16:22:55 [Zakim]
16:23:00 [sylvaing]
same results in IE8 and Opera 10.51
16:23:01 [fantasai]
fantasai: and tried to write something that was as compatible as possible with all of them
16:23:05 [dsinger]
zakim, dethbakin.a is [Apple]
16:23:05 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger, I do not recognize a party named 'dethbakin.a'
16:23:13 [fantasai]
Tab: Looks like current 2.1 also specifies a single row
16:23:16 [Zakim]
16:23:24 [dsinger]
zakim, dethbakin.a is [Apple]
16:23:24 [Zakim]
+[Apple]; got it
16:23:39 [TabAtkins]
To be specific, I misread the proposed algorithm. It does indeed mandate the behavior that we see in browsers for that testcase.
16:23:46 [bradk]
Zakim, aagg is me.
16:23:46 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:24:07 [fantasai]
Peter: Any other issues? Everyone's ok with the proposal?
16:24:13 [bradk]
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16:24:15 [fantasai]
Bert: yes, I can't read it in such a short time
16:24:21 [fantasai]
Bert: I'll complain later if I see problems with it
16:24:49 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Provisionally accept bz+fantasai's table anonymous box proposal for CSS2.1
16:26:08 [jdaggett_sleepy]
16:26:18 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is noisy?
16:26:27 [fantasai]
jdaggett_sleepy: Bert posted a list of comments on the css3-fonts spec
16:26:28 [Zakim]
dbaron, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: jdaggett_sleepy (81%), [Apple] (14%)
16:26:38 [fantasai]
jdaggett_sleepy: There are both editorial and substantial comments.
16:26:47 [jdaggett_sleepy]
16:26:51 [fantasai]
jdaggett_sleepy: I fixed most of the editorial comments
16:27:06 [fantasai]
jd: Here are my responses
16:27:18 [fantasai]
jd: THe first issue is about font-stretch not being included in the font shorthand
16:27:28 [ChrisL]
16:27:34 [fantasai]
jd: My reason to skip it out was that 'font' already has a ton of stuff in it
16:28:01 [fantasai]
ChrisL: When we were working on that we concluded that 'font' shorthand was too fragile to alter
16:28:14 [fantasai]
ChrisL: If that's not a problem anymore, then, there's no reason not to include it
16:28:30 [fantasai]
ChrisL: So we concluded to only include settings from 2.1 in the shorthand
16:28:45 [fantasai]
jd: I'm on the fence because I don't see font-stretch being used much
16:28:54 [fantasai]
jd: I'll experiment and see if including it into the shorthand works
16:29:29 [fantasai]
jd: Comment B), there was a note because Steve was concerned about conflicts. We were talking about whether to have a registry
16:30:04 [fantasai]
Steve: Offhand I guess I agree with Bert's observation. At the time, we had much more volatility going on.
16:30:14 [fantasai]
Steve: If we can update the document to handle it...
16:30:15 [ChrisL]
agree the volatility is manageable
16:30:30 [fantasai]
Steve: Bert's comment is fine, I can live with that
16:30:57 [fantasai]
jd: Comment c) is about the syntax of local()
16:31:10 [fantasai]
jd: Bert is asking whether we should put in wording about the syntax if it's not quoted
16:31:33 [fantasai]
jd: I think that sounds good, but I'm concerned about our current discussions about unquoted font names
16:32:01 [fantasai]
jd: Some of the proposals don't correlate with an easy-to-understand rule
16:32:11 [fantasai]
jd: And I'm waiting to see what happens there
16:32:23 [fantasai]
ChrisL: We should have the same set of restrictions on both font-face and font-familky
16:33:02 [fantasai]
jd: I agree with that, but also because of font shorthand, there are some restrictions that you need to have in font-family that you don't need in font-face
16:33:12 [fantasai]
jd: I think it's really confusing for people
16:33:22 [fantasai]
jd: e.g. a font name that starts with a number causes all kinds of problems
16:33:34 [fantasai]
jd: Bert, did you have anything?
16:33:46 [fantasai]
Bert: Trying to find where <font-face-name> is defined
16:34:05 [ChrisL]
I sent in some responses to Bert's comments (before seeing John's ones) -
16:34:18 [fantasai]
jd points to the definition
16:35:12 [fantasai]
Bert: My issue is what does "optionally" mean? When do you need quotes? When do you not need quotes? When are they optional.
16:36:28 [Zakim]
16:36:39 [Zakim]
16:36:40 [fantasai]
jd: It's always optional
16:36:51 [szilles]
+1 for what fantasai said
16:36:53 [fantasai]
fantasai: It can't always be optional. If the font name includes brackets or backslashes, you have to quote it.
16:37:35 [fantasai]
fantasai: The best thing to do would be to point to the font-family definition. It might be slightly more restrictive than necessary here, but I think that's less of a problem than having an inconsistency there. You can recommend to quote anything with numbers or symbols.
16:38:03 [fantasai]
jd talks about the font-matching algorithm
16:38:26 [dsinger]
I would recommend always quoting font names. I would expect to have to, in fact. They are not part of the CSS language (keywords in their own right) but values supplied into it.
16:39:03 [fantasai_]
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16:39:23 [fantasai_]
jd: The point here is to do font-matching without downloading the font insofar as possible
16:39:24 [fantasai]
jd: The point here is to do font-matching without the font face being downloaded insofar as possible.
16:39:32 [fantasai_]
jd: because we dont' want to download the font if we don't need it
16:39:52 [fantasai_]
Bert: The problem I have is with specifying sythetic bolding / italics
16:41:09 [fantasai_]
jd: If someone wants to never have synthetic bolding, they can point the bold versions at the same font
16:41:17 [fantasai_]
Bert: I thought the text said something else
16:41:52 [fantasai_]
Bert: I thought it meant that, if the descriptor said the font is bold, and the font is normal, the UA would have to synthesize the bold
16:42:03 [fantasai_]
Bert: I don't object to what you explained
16:42:27 [fantasai_]
jd: g) is on whether font-kerning is needed as a property or not
16:42:35 [fantasai_]
jd: It's right now specified as on by default
16:42:39 [fantasai_]
jd: Authors have the ability to disable it
16:43:36 [fantasai_]
jd: It's there for situations where authors don't want kerning. These are uncommon, but I think it's important to allow authors to turn it off.
16:43:47 [fantasai_]
Bert: I think there are so few cases where you'd want to turn it off
16:45:02 [fantasai_]
jd: in some cases you might not have the right kerning data
16:45:17 [Zakim]
16:45:29 [Zakim]
16:45:37 [fantasai_]
Steve: What happens with kerning on monospace fonts?
16:45:47 [fantasai_]
jd: It usually doesn't have any kerning data
16:45:50 [Zakim]
16:46:01 [fantasai_]
Steve: i'm trying to think of a case where I'd want to turn off kerning
16:46:09 [Zakim]
16:46:17 [fantasai_]
jd: For complex script support, there might be cases where you need to override that.
16:46:24 [fantasai_]
jd: I think I need to come up with specific examples
16:47:26 [fantasai_]
Steve: I hope that everyone agrees kerning should be on by default.
16:48:04 [fantasai_]
jd: One of the objections to turning kerning on by default is that people compain about performance implications
16:48:18 [fantasai_]
jd: This way those people can turn it off.
16:48:31 [fantasai_]
fantasai suggests marking it at-risk
16:48:44 [fantasai_]
jd: I will add a note saying that there's some question of whether this feature is needed.
16:49:10 [fantasai_]
dbaron: It seems like the perf concerns are less about authors who particularly want perf than about things like perf benchmarks and stuff
16:49:31 [fantasai_]
dbaron: It's going to be somebody testing perf characteristics, not tweaking a page to make it faster.
16:49:49 [fantasai_]
dbaron: If it's measurable in that context, I'm not sure that it is, I don't think having a property for turning it off is really addressing the perf concern
16:50:23 [fantasai_]
jd: Kerning usually requires going through a slower-path API for font rendering
16:50:38 [fantasai_]
jd: that allows for more effects
16:51:11 [fantasai_]
jd: you have to go through that API for most of the new features here anyway
16:52:15 [fantasai_]
Simon: In terms of WebKit, we know that kerning has a serious impact on pageload perf
16:52:27 [fantasai_]
Simon: I'm not sure what the impact of these complex text features will be
16:52:51 [fantasai_]
Simon: If the expectation is that browsers will suddenly start doing all this complex text layout, I don't really see a path to getting there
16:53:02 [fantasai_]
jd: You have to render a huge amount of text to get a pref lag
16:53:13 [fantasai_]
jd: Firefox has had kerning on by default for 2 years now
16:53:20 [fantasai_]
dbaron: I thought that was only for large font sizes
16:53:24 [fantasai_]
jd: On Windows.
16:53:52 [fantasai_]
jd: You can do the measurements, and you can get numbers that it's faster to turn it off
16:54:00 [fantasai_]
jd: But when you look at documents and what it takes to lay them out
16:54:13 [fantasai_]
jd: the effect of kerning is a very small part of that
16:55:18 [fantasai_]
Sylvain: MS did some testing awhile back, and with kerning on the text part of layout was almost twice as slow.
16:55:37 [fantasai_]
Sylvain: We haven't done that testing recently, and not sure what the effect on total page layout is
16:55:39 [ChrisL]
sounds like we could do with some recent benchmark numbers on current platforms
16:56:40 [fantasai_]
jd: The APIs were optimized for complex scripts, not for additional font features on simple scripts
16:57:00 [fantasai_]
ChrisL: We need to get up-to-date measurements
16:57:16 [fantasai_]
ChrisL: If we're going to have this discussion, we need to have measurements from current builds using current APIs
16:59:34 [fantasai_]
fantasai suggests having a default 'auto' value that lets UAs pick a compromise between perf and prettiness
17:00:06 [fantasai_]
fantasai: If an author wants it on, they can pick the always-on option
17:01:20 [fantasai_]
dsinger, Bert: it makes sense to have the browsers compete on perf vs prettiness
17:04:17 [fantasai_]
Steve: We should recommend that kerning be on by default
17:04:27 [ChrisL]
sounds like a three way auto | on | off where auto means "should be on"
17:04:28 [fantasai_]
Steve: That's the default in OpenType
17:05:13 [fantasai_]
"but could be off if the UA decides the perf isn't worth it in most cases"
17:06:08 [fantasai_]
Sylvain discusses sub-pixel positioning and that turning kerning off can be helpful for debugging sites
17:06:29 [fantasai_]
Sylvain: and on certain sites, where the author isn't expecting it, can alter the layout in ways the author does not want
17:07:07 [fantasai_]
jd: So what I'm taking from this is that kerning is a property with three values: 'auto', which means UA decides, but recommended to be on, 'normal', which means on, and 'none' which means off
17:07:32 [fantasai_]
dbaron: I sent some comments on the CSSOM issue over email.
17:07:33 [fantasai_]
Tab too
17:07:54 [fantasai_]
Meeting closed
17:07:56 [Zakim]
17:07:57 [Zakim]
17:07:57 [Zakim]
17:07:58 [Zakim]
17:07:58 [Zakim]
17:08:00 [Zakim]
17:08:00 [Zakim]
17:08:01 [Zakim]
17:08:03 [Zakim]
17:08:06 [Zakim]
17:08:10 [Zakim]
17:08:13 [murakami]
murakami has left #css
17:08:16 [Zakim]
17:13:17 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, fantasai, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
17:13:21 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:13:22 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.650.253.aaaa, TabAtkins, jdaggett_sleepy, +1.408.996.aabb, +1.858.216.aacc, +1.206.324.aadd, plinss, fantasai, SteveZ, dethbakin, David_Baron, Bert,
17:13:25 [Zakim]
... +1.408.636.aaff, smfr, dsinger, ChrisL, sylvaing, +1.650.766.aagg, bradk
18:30:25 [Zakim]
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