16:58:32 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:58:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-tagmem-irc 16:58:34 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:58:34 Zakim has joined #tagmem 16:58:36 Zakim, this will be TAG 16:58:36 ok, trackbot; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 16:58:37 Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference 16:58:37 Date: 15 April 2010 16:58:47 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started 16:58:54 +Noah_Mendelsohn 16:59:10 zakim, who is here? 16:59:10 On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn 16:59:12 On IRC I see RRSAgent, johnk, noah, jar, ht, DanC, timbl, trackbot 16:59:55 + +1.413.458.aaaa 17:00:26 q+ to ask to add resource/representation (ACTION-389) to the agenda 17:00:32 +DanC 17:01:22 scribe: johnk 17:01:28 scribe: John Kemp 17:01:30 zakim, who is here? 17:01:30 On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, +1.413.458.aaaa, DanC 17:01:32 On IRC I see RRSAgent, johnk, noah, jar, ht, DanC, timbl, trackbot 17:01:34 ScribeNick: johnk 17:02:17 zakim, +1.413.458.aaaa is johnk 17:02:17 +johnk; got it 17:02:35 Ashok has joined #tagmem 17:02:37 zakim, please call ht-781 17:02:37 ok, ht; the call is being made 17:02:39 +Ht 17:02:40 +Jonathan_Rees 17:03:10 +Raman 17:03:12 topic: Convene 17:03:38 +Ashok_Malhotra 17:03:42 raman has joined #tagmem 17:04:00 NM: one additional agenda request 17:04:22 Zakim, call timbl-office 17:04:22 ok, timbl; the call is being made 17:04:24 NM: add an item for ACTION-389 17:04:24 +Timbl 17:04:48 NM: 3 sets of minutes to approve 17:05:16 ack me 17:05:16 DanC, you wanted to ask to add resource/representation (ACTION-389) to the agenda 17:05:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/15-agenda 17:05:30 NM: March 4th - minutes APPROVED 17:05:30 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/15-agenda 17:06:02 NM: Resolve to approve minutes of 24th-26th March 17:06:07 RESOLVED 17:06:18 NM: April 1st minutes - propose to approve 17:06:25 NM: RESOLVED 17:06:54 topic; Administration 17:07:14 NM: propose to cancel the call two weeks out due to WWW conference 17:07:26 NM: conference of 29th April is cancelled 17:07:28 APPROVED 17:07:44 (for completeness, ftf minutes http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/24-tagmem-minutes.html Date: 2010/04/05 21:03:43 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html Date: 2010/04/14 02:29:46 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html Date: 2010/03/31 15:45:27 ) 17:07:51 NM: f2f arrangements underway 17:08:02 NM: email sent by DKA regarding hotels 17:08:33 s/topic;/topic:/ 17:09:07 NM: autumn f2f planning - preferences are requested for location 17:09:23 TVR: No objection to hosting 17:11:15 topic: HTML5 review 17:11:30 ACTION-407? 17:11:30 ACTION-407 -- Henry S. Thompson to propose an update to DanC's prose from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does -- due 2010-04-13 -- OPEN 17:11:30 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407 17:11:59 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0027.html 17:11:59 HT: there was a lot of agreement at our F2F, and I sent an email making a proposal 17:12:04 http://www.w3.org/mid/f5bochmffrb.fsf@calexico.inf.ed.ac.uk 17:12:06 (see above) 17:12:21 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0027.html 17:12:27 Discussing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0027.html 17:12:43 HT: It differs from previous text in 3 ways 17:13:05 HT: I added a short para to the introduction, referring to the previous RFC 17:13:28 HT: and notes that this specification updates RFC2854 17:14:09 HT: have adopted Tim's wording as it seemed closest to consensus 17:14:14 q? 17:14:20 HT: added the 'licenses' language 17:14:28 (I wonder whether introducing "the HTML family" is the shortest path to the target. I don't mind it much, but I wonder what others in the HTML WG think) 17:14:31 Larry objected to "licenses" 17:15:14 q? 17:15:26 HT: replaced the published specification paragraph from the original with new text 17:15:57 JAR: representing Larry's view that a MIME type doesn't represent anything 17:16:09 TVR: I am happy with this text 17:16:11 Larry's concern was expressed here: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes.html#item02 17:17:06 JAR: I spent some time to think of alternative text, but couldn't find anything better 17:17:21 NM: I understand the concern, but am happy with the text 17:17:36 DC: Larry wanted to take up the bigger issue 17:17:46 .. and we have 17:18:25 NM: I am not hearing anyone objecting to this text 17:19:21 NM: I propose that this text (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0027.html) should be sent to the HTML WG on behalf of the TAG 17:19:57 HT: In response to the relevant HTML bug, referenced in the email 17:20:13 noah's msg http://www.w3.org/mid/OFEFE75A7B.92080902-ON852576FA.0060BD12-852576FA.0060DC6B@lotus.com 17:20:31 cites http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4 and http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/172 17:21:10 NM: how should this relate to HTML issue-4, issue-84 and action-172? 17:21:45 the relevant issue seems http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/53 mediatypereg Need to update media type registrations 17:22:15 . RESOLUTION: the TAG will propose to the HTML WG the revisions suggested in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes.html#item02 is a resolution to your ISSUE-53 (note that we, perhaps mistakenly, had previously suggested this would relate to HTML ISSUE 4) 17:22:29 s/is a/as a/ 17:23:03 RESOLUTION: the TAG will propose to the HTML WG the revisions suggested in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0027.html is a resolution to your ISSUE-53 (note that we, perhaps mistakenly, had previously suggested this would relate to HTML ISSUE 4) 17:23:14 close enough. +1 17:23:15 RESOLUTION: the TAG will propose to the HTML WG the revisions suggested in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0027.html as a resolution to your ISSUE-53 (note that we, perhaps mistakenly, had previously suggested this would relate to HTML ISSUE 4) 17:23:23 NM: any objections? 17:23:52 HT: will take the action 17:24:20 (close 407 now) 17:24:25 (oh well) 17:24:33 . ACTION ht to fulfill the resolution to propose text from email related to ACTION-407 17:24:34 (ah. do this under 407. even better.) 17:24:51 action-407 due next week 17:24:51 ACTION-407 Propose an update to DanC's prose from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does due date now next week 17:25:10 ACTION-407 ht to propose related text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0027.html to HTML WG 17:25:22 ACTION-389? 17:25:22 ACTION-389 -- Dan Connolly to take Dan's proposal on resource/representation and turn it into a change proposal -- due 2010-04-06 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:25:22 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/389 17:25:50 topic: resource/representation terminology 17:26:34 I mostly accepted editor's proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0367.html 17:26:50 DC: made a proposal, and editor responded with counter-proposal 17:27:48 NM: do they use the term resource to mean "your choice of the two" (ie. resource, and representation) 17:27:52 DC: yes 17:28:24 NM: should we ask for the text to indicate that the term is used to refer to either of those two concepts 17:29:04 TBL: closing this up and getting something said is important 17:29:16 [[ 17:29:17 > > Where that specification speaks of a URI that identifies a resource whose state is communicated via a typed byte sequence called a representation, we simply say that a URL identifies a resource, which is a typed byte sequence; the indirection is not mentioned in this specification. 17:29:18 ]] 17:29:43 DC: I suggested the above originally 17:30:04 DC: He's already committed the change as documented in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0367.html 17:30:21 NM: propose to close ACTION-389 17:30:32 Zakim, mute me 17:30:32 DanC should now be muted 17:30:43 close action-389 17:30:43 ACTION-389 Take Dan's proposal on resource/representation and turn it into a change proposal closed 17:31:40 topic: Distributed extensibility 17:31:52 ACTION-357? 17:31:52 ACTION-357 -- Henry S. Thompson to elaborate the DPD proposal to address comments from #xmlnames and tag f2f discussion of 2009-12-10, particularly wrt integration with XML specs and wrt motivation -- due 2010-03-31 -- OPEN 17:31:52 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/357 17:32:22 HT: action may have been overtaken by work in the WG, and I haven't yet followed-up 17:32:27 ACTION-357 due next week 17:32:27 ACTION-357 Elaborate the DPD proposal to address comments from #xmlnames and tag f2f discussion of 2009-12-10, particularly wrt integration with XML specs and wrt motivation due date now next week 17:32:37 ACTION-405? 17:32:37 ACTION-405 -- Dan Connolly to ask the HTML WG to do produce a WG Note that satisfied the document the TAG resolved it wants (sort about polyglot documents) -- due 2010-03-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:32:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/405 17:33:00 timbl has joined #tagmem 17:33:04 ack me 17:33:15 DC: claim victory 17:33:33 close ACTION-405 17:33:33 ACTION-405 Ask the HTML WG to do produce a WG Note that satisfied the document the TAG resolved it wants (sort about polyglot documents) closed 17:33:40 ACTION-406? 17:33:40 ACTION-406 -- Noah Mendelsohn to get the TAG to evaluate the decentralized proposals in the HTML WG -- due 2010-04-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:33:40 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/406 17:35:27 they're listed under 41 in http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html 17:35:50 NM: now 5 change proposals suggested 17:36:07 DC: any of them close to yours HT? 17:36:16 I just got cut off 17:36:40 I see that that proposal references mine, but cannot confirm whether it builds on it in any significant way 17:36:47 which one? title? 17:37:18 Proposal X, I think 17:37:29 Yes 17:37:32 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/fixedprefixlikexml 17:37:42 I have to leave early today, conflict, sorry 17:38:55 NM: Don't see some of the original proposals we inspected (the Microsoft one, Liam's) in that list 17:39:33 ACTION-407: ht to propose related text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2010Apr/0027.html to HTML WG 17:39:33 ACTION-407 Propose an update to DanC's prose from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does notes added 17:39:58 trackbot, close ACTION 407 17:39:58 Sorry, ht, I don't understand 'trackbot, close ACTION 407'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 17:40:05 trackbot, close ACTION-407 17:40:06 ACTION-407 Propose an update to DanC's prose from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does closed 17:41:01 NM: I would hope we would look at these proposals - do they build on the previous work or not? 17:42:22 under 41 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html 17:42:34 ^ where the 5 proposals are listed 17:47:57 DC: didn't see anything that said "use XML namespaces as much as you can" 17:48:29 DC: if there was an alternate syntax to XMLNS, that might make sense... 17:51:34 JK:what is the rationale that would counter Hixie's "null" change proposal? 17:52:06 NM: rationale well-known in the community - I presented some of these at TPAC 17:52:24 TBL: could we take some real-world examples and start from there? 17:52:28 (FBML is written up in http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/08/02/HTML5-and-Distributed-Extensibility ) 17:52:41 The examples - 17:52:54 1) FBML - cut out an example, this is a specific website 17:53:03 2) MathML - this is a community. 17:53:31 3) A vendor -- MSword? WebOS? 17:53:39 DC: Palm WebOS? 17:53:43 4) A set of vendors making a new market - XForms? 17:53:51 Palm webOS approach to HTML extensibility: x-mojo-* http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/02/palm_webos_approach_to_html_ex.html 17:53:54 x-majo-* 17:54:04 x-mojo-* ? 17:54:28 X_DASH CONSIDERED HARMFUL 17:55:17 yes, tim, that was mnot's reply: http://www.mnot.net/blog/2009/02/18/x- 17:55:36 Stop it with the X- Already! ++ 17:56:41 Zakim, who's on the phone? 17:56:41 On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, johnk, DanC, Jonathan_Rees, Ht, Raman, Ashok_Malhotra, Timbl 17:56:55 so basically, one part of the rationale is to prevent overlap in extensions between the browser vendors and those who process HTML but are not UAs 17:57:44 from Sam Ruby's blog: "FBML isn’t intended to be directly processed by browsers, but that shouldn’t preclude it from being processed by other HTML5 tools, everything from sanitizers to conformance checkers to pretty printers, to search engines." 17:58:57 TVR: we are spinning our wheels 17:59:34 TVR: XMLNS is ugly, and we could potentially fix it 17:59:53 TVR: don't feel comfortable designing an ad-hoc solution though 18:01:35 NM: designing something ourselves would be a serious effort 18:02:06 TVR: XMLNS is designed, these proposals are better than current proposal 18:02:35 TVR: I wonder what impact we can have on this solution? 18:03:24 NM: what would you like the TAG to do? 18:03:32 TVR: Fix XML Namespaces 18:04:14 TVR: if you have palatable NSs in XHTML, then XHTML and HTML can eventually converge 18:04:40 NM: would you expect XML processors to change? 18:04:44 TVR: don't know 18:05:50 NM: would you take an action to organize this work TVR? 18:07:20 TBL: if you try and change XML, you'll have problems because of the deployed infrastructure 18:07:36 TVR: backward compatibility is important 18:10:24 TVR: believe that we should pursue at least one of the proposals already on the table 18:11:35 ACTION JohnK: read 4 distributed extensibility proposals and summarize them w.r.t. proposals TAG has discussed to date 18:11:35 Sorry, couldn't find user - JohnK 18:11:40 ACTION john: read 4 distributed extensibility proposals and summarize them w.r.t. proposals TAG has discussed to date 18:11:40 Created ACTION-427 - Read 4 distributed extensibility proposals and summarize them w.r.t. proposals TAG has discussed to date [on John Kemp - due 2010-04-22]. 18:12:42 (I think http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/html:xmlns is the best of those on the table. if we need to pick one urgently by way of saying "something is better than nothing", that one.) 18:13:56 ACTION Raman: sketch a plan to contact stakeholders regarding distributed extensibility 18:13:56 Created ACTION-428 - Sketch a plan to contact stakeholders regarding distributed extensibility [on T.V. Raman - due 2010-04-22]. 18:14:31 ACTION-427 due: may 1st 18:14:40 ACTION-427: due may 1st 18:14:40 ACTION-427 Read 4 distributed extensibility proposals and summarize them w.r.t. proposals TAG has discussed to date notes added 18:15:54 topic: HTML5 co-ordination with HTML WG 18:16:06 NM: sent http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/0064.html 18:16:14 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/0064.html 18:17:40 topic: Web Application Architecture 18:18:25 NM: we have an opportunity here to seriously move on this work 18:18:32 NM: prior to next face to face 18:19:39 ACTION-416 due +3weeks 18:19:39 ACTION-416 Work on diagrams in "From Server-side to client-side" section of webapps material due date now +3weeks 18:21:56 AM: work into the existing template structure? 18:22:08 TVR: start with separate files and then integrate 18:22:37 NM: see the advantages of both, and suggest we don't worry about it too much now 18:22:57 (very unusual? well, maybe... but (a) less and less so, and (b) unusual cases make interesting study) 18:23:07 JAR: I love accumulating use-cases 18:23:16 JAR: can assemble later 18:23:20 yes, raman, very interesting study of the BBC iPlayer thingy 18:24:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/att-0072/bbc-iplayer-and-web-arch.html 18:24:15 aka http://xml-applications.blogspot.com/2010/04/on-web-applications-web-architecture.html 18:24:25 Advertised in email at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/0072.html 18:24:30 q+ 18:24:35 (bonus points for archiving a copy in www-tag, raman) 18:24:35 Ashok has joined #tagmem 18:25:12 NM: I feel this piece says "this stuff happens" but I'd like to say more 18:25:27 NM: we could say, "here's good practice" 18:25:55 NM: an alternative is to say "let's explain some of the tradeoffs between how this is done and other ways it could be done" 18:26:05 ack next 18:27:05 AM: would you have written the application differently? 18:27:20 TVR: I don't understand all of their design constraints so can't really say 18:27:40 BTW, we aren't going to get to the review, but there are >30 overdue actions in tracker. Yes, we can arbitrarily bump the dates, but I'd much prefer you all fix them to have realistic dates. 18:28:00 >30 overdue is bad. 18:28:38 2 mins to go 18:29:00 TVR: some of the design constraints regarding how they release the content may have affected their solution 18:29:11 TVR: they mint very simple, clean identifiers 18:29:24 1 min to go 18:29:40 TVR: where it gets ugly, is when you load the content into the borwser and that's where the complexity comes it 18:29:49 s/comes it/comes in/ 18:29:58 TVR: just knowing the MIME type doesn't help you 18:30:31 NM: we'll have a call next week 18:30:39 NM: please clean up your action items! 18:31:18 We are adjourned. 18:31:19 ADJOURN 18:32:03 Ramin, do you have an example URI you could drop into IRC plaease? 18:32:25 Tim, I >think< there are some in his blog entry, linked above 18:33:04 -DanC 18:35:14 present: Ashok Malhotra, Dan Connolly, Henry S Thompson, Noah Mendelsohn, TV Raman, Tim Berners-Lee, John Kemp 18:35:27 chair: Noah Mendelsohn 18:36:16 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/15-agenda.html 18:36:45 rrsagent, generate minutes 18:36:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/15-tagmem-minutes.html johnk 18:36:51 I need to drop -- ttyl 18:36:58 -Noah_Mendelsohn 18:37:00 -Timbl 18:37:04 -johnk 18:37:14 -Ashok_Malhotra 18:37:25 -Jonathan_Rees 18:37:26 -Raman 18:38:05 present: Ashok Malhotra, Dan Connolly, Henry S Thompson, Jonathan Rees, Noah Mendelsohn, TV Raman, Tim Berners-Lee, John Kemp 18:42:26 disconnecting the lone participant, Ht, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM 18:42:30 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 18:42:32 Attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, DanC, johnk, Ht, Jonathan_Rees, Raman, Ashok_Malhotra, Timbl 18:43:50 ACTION-406: see ACTION-427 for follow-up 18:43:50 ACTION-406 Get the TAG to evaluate the decentralized proposals in the HTML WG notes added 18:43:53 close ACTION-406 18:43:54 ACTION-406 Get the TAG to evaluate the decentralized proposals in the HTML WG closed 18:56:43 close ACTION-419 18:56:43 ACTION-419 Edit minutes for ftf day 3 (Friday 26 March) closed 19:06:08 . 19:06:09 . 19:06:09 . 19:06:22 this should be closed, no? 19:06:28 ACTION-399? 19:06:28 ACTION-399 -- John Kemp to prepare F2F discussion of sniffing, being sure to check status of other pertinent actions -- due 2010-03-18 -- OPEN 19:06:28 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/399 19:09:45 johnk has joined #tagmem 19:10:42 johnk, I'm reviewing records of our sniffing discussion (http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html#item03 ) in hopes that some of the actions tracker thinks are open are really closed 19:10:45 e.g. 19:10:48 action-399? 19:10:48 ACTION-399 -- John Kemp to prepare F2F discussion of sniffing, being sure to check status of other pertinent actions -- due 2010-03-18 -- OPEN 19:10:48 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/399 19:37:02 jar has joined #tagmem 20:16:18 jar_ has joined #tagmem 20:23:50 jar has joined #tagmem 20:31:41 Zakim has left #tagmem 21:48:26 timbl_ has joined #tagmem 22:45:58 timbl has joined #tagmem 23:19:51 timbl_ has joined #tagmem